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What Will it Take for ME3 to Surpass GoW3?

Débuté par Dasher1010 , déc. 01 2011 02:40

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#601
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 06:54

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alex90c wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I played the demo.


Then you should know in GoW that you don't roll from cover to cover, you slide between them.


According to some posts here, Shep will roll from cover to cover in ME3 if it's a certain distance apart, automatically.

#602
naledgeborn
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 07:00

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Hate to be a killjoy and break your troll spree but here you go.

ME3 Gameplay Animations

It looks "realistic" enough for me.

#603
Someone With Mass
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 07:04

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By the way, if you're just running out there while under fire, and they have a trained marksman (like the Nemesis), they'll probably take your head off as soon as you stick it out, so in that situation, it's better to roll and throw them off and maybe get shot in the leg or so.

It's better than taking a bullet to the brain.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:05 .

#604
alex90c
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 07:06

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In ME2 you have to reload "actively"


lol.

no, as in there's a reloading mini-game, not whatever the f you're on about.

you have to charge enemy positions


no you don't you actually don't have to at all. you can just sit there camping with a sniper if you want. Gears on the other hand, well the AI actually moves up towards you so you can't just camp in one spot unless you want to get whacked by a mauler, blown up by therons with torque bows, blown up by grenadiers lobbing grenades, cover-kicked by any old drone or even chainsawed by a cyclops. seriously, there is no way you can compare the two like that with a straight face.

and handle your melee abilities


lolwhat? do I whack this guy with my arm or not?

Gears is different. Do I just whack them? Do I chainsaw them? Do I make a bayonet charge instead? Maybe I should switch out my pistol for my boomshot quickly since the boomshot does more melee damage? Sorry, there's a bit more to it in Gears.

PLUS you have to manage a dozen special abilities which are non-existent in GoW


"i need to take this armour down so i'll use warp/incinerate"
"i need to take these shields down so i'll use overload"

eh, there isn't really much to it. then of course there's the biotic combos, but still.

The abilities in ME are cool as hell, but I'd still say the Gears combat has a bit more depth to it. Do I run up to this grinder with my sawed-off or do I try to take it out from a distance with my lancer? I'm being quite heavily suppressed so should I just stick with shooting with my lancer or whip out my retro lancer which has bad recoil but does much more damage? i'm low on health do I blindfire this grenadier running up to me or do I roll out of the way and hope that he doesn't shoot me long enough for my health to recover?

ME2? Well, none of the enemies move so I can just pop them all off from a distance.

That makes a huge difference (about three times more difficult). I suggest to have a look at the coolest ME2 Engineer and Adept videos I know about


Errr no. Play the Gears games on hardcore (standard difficulty for Gears 1, I used it as a standard on Gears 2 and 3 as well even though they introduced a "normal" setting") and tell us how you cope. My first playthrough, seriously the amount of times I died. And even in future playthroughs, because of the AI I know they won't do exactly the same things every time so i can't just find that perfect spot and camp.

And anyone who's played Gears 3, imagine playing that without the DBNO system. It's pretty much Gears 1 on steroids.

For the engineer video, go to around the 4 minute mark where the enemies come out of the elevator. Shep's got a claymore, so if he was able to roll up to that engineer he could have shot them at point blank rather than running around near them but not that close.

#605
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 07:17

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naledgeborn wrote...

ME3 Gameplay Animations

It looks "realistic" enough for me.



1:38 -- moron roll
1:43 -- repeat of same moron roll

And don't get me started on the silly "holographic" blades...

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:18 .

#606
CroGamer002
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 07:31

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^That "moron" roll is called SWAT roll, which is used in SWAT's.


So, are SWAT's morons?

#607
Il Divo
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 08:06

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Luc0s wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

This seems to become a problem with discussing any science-fiction or fantasy game or setting -- as soon as you add something speculative or fantastic, but necessary to the setting and story, such as FTL, some people believe that any reference to reality is automatically void, and that all fantastic and speculative elements are valid, and that anything goes, including unrelated random crap like people doing backflips and cartwheels in a firefight.


No, this is not the problem at all.

Fantasy does not make realism unnecessary. Not at all. If Shepard would wear a pedo-bear costume and shoot didlo's out of his guns I would totally object against it.

Our problem (yours and mine) is that we both have a different level of suspension of disbelief.

You know what "suspension of disbelief" is, right?

Many things in games are unrealistic. Some of those things break the believability of the game, while others don't. Some things in games are completely unrealistic, but they don't bother us because despise it being unrealistic, it's still believable. This is called suspension of disbelief. But when the suspense of disbelief breaks, all the unrealistic parts will start to bother us.

The challenge for every game-designer is to make the player willing to believe things that aren't real. As soon as the player is willing to believe 'A' while 'A' is completely unrealistic, there is suspension of disbelief.

The trick of "suspension of disbelief" is justifying the unrealistic part. Dive-rolls are unrealistic, but justified if they add to the gameplay and look believable. Just like FTL is unrealistic, but justified because it adds to the story and Mass Effect does a decent job to come up with a believable theory on how FTL is possible.


For you, backflips, catwheels and dive-rolls break your suspension of disbelief. You're not willing to believe that in Mass Effect 3, these backflips, catwheels and dive-rolls are possible and real. In your head, these moves aren't justified.

For me (and most others) these backflips and dive-rolls do not break our suspension of disbelief. I am willing to believe that in Mass Effect 3, these backflips, catwheels and dive-rolls are possible and real. These moves add to the gameplay and look (in my opinion) quite believable. It doesn't break my suspension of disbelief.


I do have to agree with this. There's nothing particularly wrong with realism and I can enjoy it, but the sheer number of films/games I've played through which have incorporated unrealistic fight/shooting mechanics has made it difficult for me to question the ME3 dodge roll, at least in the face of everything else I've seen. Whether it's dual-wielding in Halo 2, or doing crazy combat flips in Batman: Arkham City, there are multiple demonstrations of how realism is sacrificed in favor of aesthetics/gameplay mechanics. The ME3 dodge role isn't the worst offender, by far, and looks to be a very smooth animation. That's my two cents at least.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:07 .

#608
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 08:17

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Mesina2 wrote...

^That "moron" roll is called SWAT roll, which is used in SWAT's.


So, are SWAT's morons?


http://www.google.co...iw=1280&bih=648

SWAT roll, huh?

#609
Someone With Mass
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 08:39

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Actually, a SWAT roll refers to a move in the Splinter Cell games.

#610
Nizzemancer
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 09:38

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Mesina2 wrote...

^That "moron" roll is called SWAT roll, which is used in SWAT's.


So, are SWAT's morons?


SWAT don't roll...rolls serve no purpose

#611
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Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 10:40

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alex90c wrote...
And anyone who's played Gears 3, imagine playing that without the DBNO system. It's pretty much Gears 1 on steroids.

I know I wouldn't have gotten as far in the story mode as I have without it.

#612
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Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 10:41

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

This is exactly why rolling is ridiculous. In that video that dude wasn't harmed by the explosion at all which, I assume, it's because of his gymnastic abilities or something. Rolling, diving or a flikflak is not going to stop grenade fragments (or bullets) from hitting you. The only thing you can do is throw the grenade back before it blows or quickly hide behind a solid object to shield you from the blast.

The (continues) rolling in that video only looks ridiculous and something like that would completely break the immersion for me - it's horrible.


Well it's obvious WHY the grenade didn't harm the player, isn't it? It didn't harm him because he jumped out of the way of the blast reach quickly in time. He would never have escaped the blast reach by simply walking away. But the quick dodge (resulting in a dive-roll) managed to get the player out of the blast reach of the grenade in time.

To you it looks stupid, to me it looks awesome and I can tell you from experience, that this is amazing gameplay, it feels just fantastic to out-maneuver a grenade blast with a well-timed dive to the side. It's feels just great. I bet every single Gears of War player here in this topic will agree with me.

I think you should try it. Try to play and experience Gears of War for yourself. If you're open-minded about hardcore Third Person Shooters, then you'll really love Gears of War and you'll learn to accept and even love those dive-rolls. You'll see for yourself that those righty-timed dive rolls feel great when you do them yourself to outsmart the enemy.



Shepard the Leper wrote...

AI always sucks and it will be for a very long time. In case you didn't know, the AI reacts to what's happening and it always reacts in the exact same way which makes all AI systems extremely vulnerable to abuse. The "good" AI systems don't have good AI, they only have found (clever) ways to disguse the (most) obvious flaws.


This is completely not true, trust me, I know, because I study game-design myself. I'm a game-design student who studies this crap on an university, so I kinda know what I'm talking about.

But you don't need to be a game-designer to see that Gears of War's A.I. is adaptive, diverse and miles ahead of Mass Effect's A.I.

Gears of War 3's A.I. never reacts in the exact same way. Play the GoW3 campaign twice and you'll see that the A.I. reacts slightly different the second time you play the campaign. Except for the scripted events, the A.I. is really dynamic in GoW3.

A better example of an A.I. that's extremely dynamic is the A.I. of Starcraft II. The A.I. in Starcraft II actually records how all the online players behave and it will learn from the player's playstyle. Then the A.I. will adapt it's tactics to what it learns from the player, resulting in a dynamic A.I. that's not quite as predicatable as you think it is.

Sure, even Starcraft II's A.I. has it's flaws and can be exploited, but it certainly does NOT suck.


So stop making up excuses for Mass Effect's crappy A.I,, because we both know there are plenty of games who do it much better than Mass Effect (Gears of War being one of them).



Shepard the Leper wrote...

In ME2 you have to reload "actively", you have to charge enemy positions, and handle your melee abilities (just like in GoW), PLUS you have to manage a dozen special abilities which are non-existent in GoW.


LOL you clearly haven't played Gears of War.

In Mass Effect you DON'T reload actively. You just press 1 button and it's done. In Gears of War, you actually have to do a little mini-game to reload your gun. You press the reload button once, a small cursor in a bar appears, starting to move to the right. Then you have to press the reload button again when the cursor hits the "sweet spot" of the little bar.
THAT'S active-reloading and it's a lot harder to master than using your abilities in Mass Effect 2, which are all but 1 simple button-press away.

Click here for a video demonstration of active reloading in Gears of War.

Shepard the Leper wrote...

That makes a huge difference (about three times more difficult). I suggest to have a look at the coolest ME2 Engineer and Adept videos I know about. Tell me, what is wrong with the pacing and if you think it's too slow, by what percentage could it be increased without making it impossible to play like this guy does? Oh, and when would rolling around be of any help in those videos?


No it's not three times more difficult. Trust me. I've played both games and you didn't (if you did play GoW you would know what 'Active-Reloading' actually is, which you don't). So I know what I'm talking about and you don't.

I've watched your videos, and all I see is how the player easily destroys all the enemies, who just stand there, ready to be killed. They're nothing but canon-fodder and the overal pace in that video is incredibly slow.

Rolling wouldn't be of any help in THOSE video's (or ANY Mass Effect 2 combat situation at all) because, as I already said, the combat pace in Mass Effect 2 is slow and easy. You don't need to avoid grenades, rockets and nukes in ME2 and the enemie sin ME2 are not much more than simple cannon-fodder to the experienced players. 


All those times I've played Mass Effect 2 on Insanity and not a single time I've felt actually threatened by the enemies. "Insanity" in Mass Effect really just isn't "insane" at all.

Now go play Gears of War on Insane difficulty. I can tell you, THAT'S insane! THAT'S what "Insanity" should feel like. And trust me, in Gears of War on Insane difficulty, you're going to NEED those "stupid rolls" to avoid the tons of grenades, rocktes and nukes that are hurled at you.


The best fights in ME2 have little to do with the AI, but have everything to do with the level design. The final fight on Horizon, the Collectorship Ambush and LotSB's Hatch are among the contenders in that regard. In those places there is room for the AI to maneuver (and they do flank you). Without good level design it doesn't matter which AI you're using, when there is no space to flank the player, there won't be any flanking, ever.


O really? In all my years of playing ME2 countless of times (on Insanity), I've NEVER EVER got flanked, not even by the Collectors on Horizon. The only enemies who "flank" you are the husks, who actually walk towards you anyway.

On Horizon (final battle), when I play Soldier, Sentinel or Infiltrator, I simply stay in the back of the truck that's near the entrance of the "arena" (on your left when you enter). I just camp in that truck and kill every single enemy with my guns and powers. No need to worry, because the enemy is too dumb to attack me from the side. They all walk towards me, following the most obvious and straight-forward path. 

Modifié par Luc0s, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:10 .

#613
string3r
Posté 08 décembre 2011 - 11:42

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So I'm guessing rolling has IV's?

#614
darthnick427
Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 12:18

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I thought it was already better...my mistake I guess

#615
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 12:26

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darthnick427 wrote...

I thought it was already better...my mistake I guess


Jep, your mistake indeed. But no problem, it's a mistake made by many people who are ignorant about Gears of War. ;)

#616
capn233
Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 02:43

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The closest thing to a tactical roll in real life would be if someone put a Picatinny rail on a baked good.

#617
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 03:20

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capn233 wrote...

The closest thing to a tactical roll in real life would be if someone put a Picatinny rail on a baked good.

A baked good? Is that military slang or are you seriously talking about baked goods?

Modifié par jreezy, 09 décembre 2011 - 03:20 .

#618
StephanieBengal
Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 07:07

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jreezy wrote...

capn233 wrote...

The closest thing to a tactical roll in real life would be if someone put a Picatinny rail on a baked good.

A baked good? Is that military slang or are you seriously talking about baked goods?


I'm pretty sure it isn't the latter...

#619
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 07:52

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StephanieBengal wrote...

jreezy wrote...

capn233 wrote...

The closest thing to a tactical roll in real life would be if someone put a Picatinny rail on a baked good.

A baked good? Is that military slang or are you seriously talking about baked goods?


I'm pretty sure it isn't the latter...

Yeah it can't be, that would be weird considering a Picatinny rail is used for guns.

#620
HowlHowl
Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 08:20

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I don't give a damn about Gears of War. The character designs are comical; chainsaw guns are slightly dumber than holographic blades, the story is asinine, the overall theme is juvenile. Look at yourselves. In Gears of War, you have chainsaws on your assault rifles; in Mass Effect 3 you have a retarded blade of transposed light. In Mass Effect, you manage biotic, tech, and combat abilities; in GOW, you have to switch your big guns to other big guns. Whatever. GOW is stupid. Mass Effect avoids being just as stupid because the universe and story have some substance.

#621
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 08:26

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HowlHowl wrote...

I don't give a damn about Gears of War. The character designs are comical; chainsaw guns are slightly dumber than holographic blades, the story is asinine, the overall theme is juvenile. Look at yourselves. In Gears of War, you have chainsaws on your assault rifles; in Mass Effect 3 you have a retarded blade of transposed light. In Mass Effect, you manage biotic, tech, and combat abilities; in GOW, you have to switch your big guns to other big guns. Whatever. GOW is stupid. Mass Effect avoids being just as stupid because the universe and story have some substance...in my opinion

Fixed that a bit for you.

#622
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 08:31

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I don't think anyone with preconceived notions of negativity or even rightful dislike towards Gears of War would be able to best answer the question so why even comment?

#623
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 08:38

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jreezy wrote...

I don't think anyone with preconceived notions of negativity or even rightful dislike towards Gears of War would be able to best answer the question so why even comment?


Same reason that people biased TOWARDS Gears are answering.

#624
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 10:24

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I don't think anyone with preconceived notions of negativity or even rightful dislike towards Gears of War would be able to best answer the question so why even comment?


Same reason that people biased TOWARDS Gears are answering.

Not really. They're not actually discussing how the game mechanics of Gears of War or maybe another TPS could help Mass Effect 3 surpass Gears of War 3's gameplay. This thread isn't about what makes either game bad but what could be done to improve Mass Effect 3. 

#625
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Posté 09 décembre 2011 - 10:29

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jreezy wrote...

Not really. They're not actually discussing how the game mechanics of Gears of War or maybe another TPS could help Mass Effect 3 surpass Gears of War 3's gameplay. This thread isn't about what makes either game bad but what could be done to improve Mass Effect 3. 


Which may not always equal "go towards Gears of War," but those posters biased towards Gears will probably say that it is.
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