973 réponses à ce sujet

[Tryynity]

I was reading a Wiki article on pen names and I read this and found it funny and had to share.

"Romance novelist Angela Knight writes under that name instead of her actual name (Julie Wood****) because of the double entendre of her surname in the context of that genre."

Thats a good reason to have a pen name LOL


EDIT: The profanity fitler bleeped it   - okay

*hint* - male chicken - no not Rooster the other word *nods* yea that one *snickers*

Modifié par Tryynity, 30 décembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

@SoLD, I keep reading that as "Please provide me with an alibi. I don't know what I'll need it for yet, but they're nice to have." XD

Hah!

[Tryynity]

I need to ask a question because I am confused about perspectives.

You can still tell a story from a certain character's perspective, but still be a narrator yes? Or does it have to be the character's voice the entire time.

[Corker]

Tryynity wrote...

I need to ask a question because I am confused about perspectives.

You can still tell a story from a certain character's perspective, but still be a narrator yes? Or does it have to be the character's voice the entire time.

Disclaimer: Not an English major

My understanding is that you can absolutely have a third person limited perspective, where the 'third person limited' i the 'certain character.'  Ideally, the narrative notices the things the character notices, ignores the things the character ignores, judges as the character judges.  Possibly, language use reflects the character's dialogue.

Take Morrigan's first appearance from several different viewpoints:

Omniscient, the author likes Morrigan:

Morrigan stepped into view, moving effortlessly, confidently.  Her self-assurance and power radiated from her in waves, and the warning in her cold yellow eyes made the would-be Wardens fall back a step.

(Not Morrigan's POV because we're seeing her from outside herself, but we're also not seeing her from any other character's POV)

Alistair's POV:

As Duncan's newest recruit checked the broken chest for any sign of the treaties, a hint of motion caught Alistair's eye.  No darkspawn taint, he thought automatically.  Not that wolves, barbarians, bandits or deserters were necessarily better.

The woman sauntered into view, a sardonic smirk twisting her lips.  She was dressed strangely, and his templar training told him she had power.  Oh, this isn't good.

Daveth's POV:

Now that's a looker.  Daveth couldn't help but think it, even as the more intelligent parts of his brain were screaming about his mother's tales of Witch of the Wilds and soup pot.  She was a looker, all right - like a sundew flower to a fly.

Warden Brosca's POV:

Natia had no idea what the boys were so freaked out about.  Seriously, they'd just killed how many dozen darkspawn, including some with magic.  This was just one woman, and one without much armor on at that. What was the fuss?

[Klidi]

Tryynity wrote...

I need to ask a question because I am confused about perspectives.

You can still tell a story from a certain character's perspective, but still be a narrator yes? Or does it have to be the character's voice the entire time.

Yes, you can, if it's the 3rd person narrator. In that case, the narrator is always different than the POV character.

If you write:  I went to the Warden and offered her the Antivan massage - then the narrator is the same as POV character = Zevran.
But if you write: He went to the Warden and offered her the Antivan massage - then it's still Zevran's POV, but it's narrated by someone else who knows about it, usually some unspecified entity.

This 'unspecified entity' can have knowledge of feelings and thoughts of only one character (e.g. Zevran) - in that case it's called 3rd person limited.

Or it can have knowledge of several/all of the characters, as well as of everything else in their world in that case it's called 3rd person omniscient. If the story changes the perspective from one character to another, even if it's done by chapters, it is still the same unspecified entity, the same omniscient narrator. Most of mainstream novels use this typer of narrator.

These two are called subjective narrators, because they show 'subjective reality' - thoughts and feelings. If the narrator shows only action, and the character's opinions and emotions are only shown through their behaviour, it is called objective - it shows 'objective reality'. It's also called 'camera lens narrator'.

I hope this helps.

[tklivory]

Tryynity wrote...

I need to ask a question because I am confused about perspectives.

You can still tell a story from a certain character's perspective, but still be a narrator yes? Or does it have to be the character's voice the entire time.

Excellent responses from Corker and Klidi.  I just have a couple of additional thoughts:

'Narrator' and 'Narrative' are two differents things.  One is the 'person' telling the story, the other is the 'description' of the story.  It is a subtle difference but one that should be kept in mind.  In general, 'Perspective' (first/second/third person) is related to the Narrator, and 'Scope' (omniscient/limited/limited omniscient) is related to Narrative.

I've talked about Perspective a little bit in the ZevThread (see my prior blog entry for a more extensive example re: first/second/third person type of writing), and Klidi touched on Scope in a prior response here.  I'll just add to those comments that in general, the choice of Scope seems to be related to the time the work is written (omniscient was very common in the 19th century, for example, or earlier in the 20th century, a la Tolkien)  or the genre for which it is written (romances and modern fantasy generally use limited, and 'literature' today still tends to use omniscient).

Modern fantasy leans towards Third Person/Limited because it is the most favored method to pull the reader into the story and 'make them the main character'.  Instead of reading what everyone is doing or thinking, by limiting the reader to a single perspective, it emulates the human thought process and makes the reading experience more visceral.  Some people like it, some don't, but that is the general reasoning behind using Limited Scope for a narrative.


One final, and (hopefully) less convoluted point:

The main thing to keep in mind while writing is to keep it clear to the reader.  You can use multiple characters' viewpoints to tell the story, as long as it is crystal clear to the reader *which* character is being used to tell that particular part of the story.  Switches in characters within a chapter should always be clearly demarcated and meaningful so as to avoid confusing the reader.  For instance, in my Rise of the Wolf story, each chapter has several scenes, each from a different character's perspective, but within each of those scenes, *only* that character is 'telling' the reader what is happening.

*looks at wall o' text above*  Ummm, hope that helps...  Dangit, I got obtuse again...

[Tryynity]

Yes - thank you that helped lots.

[BevH]

I have a question with regard to plot devices. How soon should you reveal an element. My main concern with the story I'm writing is that if I wait until close to the end, people are going to think "WTF, where did *that* come from?!?" In light of this, I'm starting to lean toward revealing all, but having the characters involved remain unaware. Thoughts and comments please?

Modifié par BevH, 02 janvier 2012 - 02:16 .

[tklivory]

I prefer gradual revelation. Little thoughts like "If only I could tell them," or "If only they knew,", or, if an object is involved, little hints about its existence and what it looks like. If there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to refer to the device without giving it away, do a quick brainstorm.

For instance, in one case I had a character under a spell that controlled him, but didn't want to come out and say, "HE'S CONTROLLED BY MAGIC!" So I gave him a mismatched eye (one blue, one green) and had the blue eye glint when he did something bad, talked about how he used to have two green eyes, etc. Then when the spell was broken, the blue eye went away and in retrospect, it was clear that he had been under a spell without the reader being completely unprepared for such a revelation.

[Merilsell]

Give the reader hints, as little they might be, that often helps to not feel hit over the head with a resolution of a plot point or similar in the end. Especially attentive reader will pick it up and will let you know about it in their feedback. That is how I experienced it with OEaH, however. Sometimes even I am surprised what they all pick up, even if I'm just throwing little pieces of plot trail bread at their feet. Then again, my reader are all awesome

The POV thingie still confuses me even after all the time. Though I found a way for my story now. I choose one POV of a character and stick with it. Which means it is close third person, as I see all events/ other character through the eyes of the narrator character. Often I switch these in a chapter, but then only after a longer while and a clear cut. Otherwise it would get quickly confusing.

[Corker]

The old TV series "Columbo" used to start by showing a murder - very atypical for a detective show! The audience already knew whodunit. The interest was seeing how Columbo got the perp to implicate him- or herself.

Which is a long way of saying, I think it's possible to show your plot device early, but still maintain interest.

Several of DAO's treaty quests handle this thing pretty well, I think. Ser Donal (I think that's his name) tells you about the sick arl *and* the Sacred Ashes as soon as you hit Lothering. So that doesn't feel so artificial when you're sent after them later. Swiftrunner doesn't really "tell all" about Witherfang/The Lady of the Forest, but it becomes clear pretty fast that Zathrian hasn't told you everything. If Lanaya can be persuaded, she can give you even more of the story. So when the Lady has her 'big reveal,' it isn't out of the blue.

Compare to "Riordan, you ass, you couldn't have mentioned recruiting Loghain *before* we hit the Landsmeet chamber? Now, you said we should talk after the Lands-- Riordan? Where'd you go?"

"Oh, I had to leave so we could have an allegedly dramatic reveal in a few scenes."

"FFFFFFFFUUUU..."

Thought experiment: What would your story look like if the protagonists *were* aware of the plot device? If they were actively seeking it or planning to avoid it (depending on what kind of plot device it is)? It might not make sense at all, but it might also be a way of making your characters a lot more proactive.

[BevH]

Corker wrote...

Compare to "Riordan, you ass, you couldn't have mentioned recruiting Loghain *before* we hit the Landsmeet chamber? Now, you said we should talk after the Lands-- Riordan? Where'd you go?"

"Oh, I had to leave so we could have an allegedly dramatic reveal in a few scenes."

"FFFFFFFFUUUU..."

Thought experiment: What would your story look like if the protagonists *were* aware of the plot device? If they were actively seeking it or planning to avoid it (depending on what kind of plot device it is)? It might not make sense at all, but it might also be a way of making your characters a lot more proactive.

Agreed, the whole Riordan thing is pretty much a WTF moment in my book - lol!

The point of what I'm trying to accomplish in the story is to definitely keep the protagonists unaware of the plot device, while others close to them know of it. It's kind of hard to explain without revealing what I intend. But I can see where making the readers aware of it early on, Columbo style, might make the reader feel as though they were one of the ones close to the protagonists.

[BevH]

Since my contribution to "Dear Author" was rather brief, something I'm kind of known for, here's is a short piece I wrote more years ago than I'd like to think :

Dreaming of Anomen

The moment she saw him, Ashara knew that they were meant to be together. He was so handsome: her knight in shining armor.

It started slowly, trying to find out about each other, giving each other special looks, brushing up against each other “accidentally”. There were also the occasional spats, the course of true love does not always run smoothly.

Ashara remembered the first time she gave Anomen a kiss. It was just a quick peck on the cheek, but she wanted to let him know that he was not alone. He had seemed so lost after his sister’s death. She had accompanied Anomen to his family home to see what they could learn of Moira’s death. After meeting his abusive father, Ashara could certainly understand why Anomen lacked self-confidence. Once outside the estate, she gave his hand a squeeze and kissed him on the cheek.

The budding romance flourished even more once Anomen had passed his test for knighthood. He began showering Ashara with flowers and gifts, eventually declaring his love for her. The days that followed were filled with love and joy. Anomen became her fierce protector and was at her side in all things. He shared her grief over the fall of Saradush and expressed a growing concern about her fate when the last of the Five were gone. Finally, the joyous day arrived when Anomen proposed to Ashara, and she could hardly think of anything else.

The wedding was the grandest that any had seen in quite a while. All of Baldur’s Gate’s finest turned out for the event. The happy couple returned to Athkatla and restored the Delryn estate. Days were filled with love and joy and soon a child was on the way. Jaheira attended to the needs of Ashara during the blessed event. Anomen, the anxious father to be, paced outside the room with Keldorn lending support. After hours in labor, Jaheira finally appeared to announce, “Congratulations, it’s a…”

Ashara’s reverie was interrupted by the Solar’s voice reminding her she had a decision to make. She looked down at the still, lifeless body of her beloved Anomen in her arms, whispering softly into his hair, “You said you’d never leave me. Please come back, I need you…”

Modifié par BevH, 02 janvier 2012 - 04:10 .

[Tryynity]

@ Alambra - Even worse if she was a he I imagine.

or if her name was Iva LOL or Ivanna PMSL

@ BevH - I am intrigued - nice piece.

Modifié par Tryynity, 03 janvier 2012 - 02:05 .

[Tryynity]

Ok - next question - is anyone a linquistics expert or does someone here have any knowledge in regard to "Register Tones".

[Merilsell]

Ivanna Woodc*ck xD Reminds me on that, though. Yes...I'm that juvenile xD

On another, serious note: I need a new beta reader for OEaH. Anyone here who feels up to the job? PM me for details. Mostly need one for the deep roads of the english language, since I'm no native speaker.

[Corker]

Short answer is: no, not really.

But if this is about the elvish apostrophes... I really kind of doubt they indicate register tones, personally. They're sort of a fantasy cliche, and at best they help indicate the author's intended pronunciation of a word when the usual English conventions are unclear. At worst, they're just there to make the language look different and exotic.

For example, if I saw "atishan," I'd probably think it was pronounced ah-TEE-shan, or maybe "ah-tih-SHAN". "atish’an" makes it clear (in theory) that the "sh" goes with the middle syllable: ah-TEESH-an.

But then you've got "Asha'bellanar" which... well, it looks more exotic that way, but Asha Bellanar or Asha-bellanar would have also worked just fine.

YMMV, and if you want to write up Dalish as a tonal language, I'll just step back and let you get back to it.

[tklivory]

I always saw the apostrophe in the Elvish as a word stringer: i.e., just the easiest method to string words together to make them relate to each other. It also (to those who speak Germanic or Romantic languages) looks slightly more exotic and *foreign*. Corker's definitely correct in that it also aids with pronunciation and helping the reader to place the accent on the correct part of the word, but doesn't exclusively serve that purpose.

Overall tonal languages are generally also associated with a written language that doesn't rely on letters representing sounds, but on symbols representing ideas (something Tolkien departed from in his creation of his own Elvish languages, but then, he was an expert in Romantic and Germanic languages, so that's understandable). Since we have *extremely* little knowledge on the written Elvish of Dragon Age, it's hard to determine one way or another if it is tonal, though the devs may have intended it to be. However, based strictly on in-game evidence, it's hard to tell.

[Merilsell]

Heh, I'm actually the one using the apostrophe when writing elvish, because it looks cool/ better this way xD *hides* Then again, it is not that I'm going out and actually talk elvish with people, so the importance of that is for me...not that high. I think I already do the best with what little words Bioware has given us. It is not that they have ever defined its grammar or the like....so yeah.



*runs away*

Modifié par Merilsell, 04 janvier 2012 - 12:48 .

[tklivory]

Merilsell wrote...

Heh, I'm actually the one using the apostrophe when writing elvish, because it looks cool/ better this way xD *hides* Then again, it is not that I'm going out and actually talk elvish with people, so the importance of that is for me...not that high. I think I already do the best with what little words Bioware has given us. It is not that they have ever defined its grammar or the like....so yeah.

*runs away*

Nothin' wrong with that.  I've made up a few phrases and then some for my Rise of the Wolf.  Although I like the idea of using Sindarin to fill in for what isn't in the 'official' canon, though I'd likely turn to Noldorin since I'm writing for the old times of Arlathan...  Yeah, i'm nuts like that...

But even when you look at the wiki about elvish language, the apostrophe is all, like, approved and stuff, y'know?  So it's totally awesomely cool.

[Tryynity]

Oh I understand Sindarin even less than Dalish - Dalish is much simpler thats why I like using it when I have Dalish characters.

You have read my Asunder piece TK - that was why I was asking - because I wasnt sure where to put those little marky thingies. I do like including them, because it does make it more believable and also exotic.

Modifié par Tryynity, 04 janvier 2012 - 02:20 .

[tklivory]

The problem with Dalish is 1) there's too little of it known and 2) what's known isn't exactly consistent. *shrug* 'Arlathan' is an elision of 'Ar' 'lath' 'an' - why no apostrophes, like with emma'vhenan? *sigh*

I want more info, devs! *shakes tiny fists*


And, now for something completely different:

TITLES!

How do y'all decide on titles for your short stories and novels? I'm having a dickens of a time trying to come up with the 'perfect' name for my Blight fic, so I wondered if y'all have any rhyme or reason or tips to help me come up with the *frickin* name for my story! Like, bogus to the max for Title's Block (or whatever)

[maxernst]

tklivory wrote...

The problem with Dalish is 1) there's too little of it known and 2) what's known isn't exactly consistent. *shrug* 'Arlathan' is an elision of 'Ar' 'lath' 'an' - why no apostrophes, like with emma'vhenan? *sigh*

Maybe it's a transliteration problem.  If the Dalish use a different alphabet, different people may use different rules to generate spellings.  For example, there are two quite different systems for writing Chinese words in the Roman alphabet and Arabic is even worse.  I swear I've seen about six different spellings for the last name of the former leader of Libya.

[Maria13]

tklivory wrote...

TITLES!

How do y'all decide on titles for your short stories and novels? I'm having a dickens of a time trying to come up with the 'perfect' name for my Blight fic, so I wondered if y'all have any rhyme or reason or tips to help me come up with the *frickin* name for my story! Like, bogus to the max for Title's Block (or whatever)

I like simplicity and evocativeness: "Dark Ritual" or "A Harrowing" but apart from 'you'll know when you've found it because it will sound right' I really don't have any advice... Uh.