I know what you mean, I get annoyed with big generalizations in writing advice too.
If you read a lot of old classics they are incredibly bogged down in poetic descriptions (Steinbeck comes to mind, the landscape in some of his work is almost a character unto itself) and they make for beautiful reads. But if it's done badly it can become too heavy and slow everything down and feel like it's burying the story.
I think as a writer what it all boils down to is playing to your strengths. Some writers are capable of writing masterful descriptions that manage to suck a reader in. Other writers' strengths lie in creating witty dialogue or unforgettable characters. There's not really any right style, or wrong style, it's just important to keep the reader hooked from start to finish.
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#427
Posté 07 février 2012 - 02:51
Klidi
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There are many types of short stories. This advice is valid for some, but not generally. Some authors prefer simple, clean style, some prefer to 'paint with words'. I saw many amazing short stories at FFN, where cutting out adjectives and adverbs would do a great disservice to them and ruin them completely.
Modifié par Klidi, 07 février 2012 - 02:51 .
#428
Posté 07 février 2012 - 03:06
maxernst
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Bethadots wrote...
I know what you mean, I get annoyed with big generalizations in writing advice too.
I agree. I don't think broad generalizations in any creative endeavour are ever correct. There is potential expressive value in anything you can do with language, even deliberate misspellings and sentence fragments, and other grammatical errors. You shouldn't feel compelled to cut things out of your story on general principle unless you think they really don't add anything.
On the subject of redundancy (although not really descriptive redundancy), I'll present two quotes from
The Diary of the Rose," by Ursula K. LeGuin where repetition is used expressively: And goodness me, three adverbs describing the same verb!
I lied. I lied. I lied. I lied deliberately, knowingly, well. She lied. She is a liar! She is an intellectual, too. She is a lie.
I am Rosa. I am the rose. The rose, I am the rose. The rose with no flower, the rose all thorns, the mind he made, the hand he touched, the winter rose.
Modifié par maxernst, 07 février 2012 - 03:07 .
#429
Posté 07 février 2012 - 03:20
Muirin
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Sometimes it's hard to take these tips for improvement, and use them without losing your own style.
I know I am particularly fond of being pulled in to the journey, with rich description. Rather than caring that person A got to point B, I want to be drawn in to how they felt, what they saw.
Then again though, I think, I have to do something differently to be better received (and to actually get a decent number of reviews on ff.net). *Sigh*.
I love those quotes from Ursula LeGuin.
I also like Cormac McCarthy as an author, and I guess he doesn't really follow the rules.
I know I am particularly fond of being pulled in to the journey, with rich description. Rather than caring that person A got to point B, I want to be drawn in to how they felt, what they saw.
Then again though, I think, I have to do something differently to be better received (and to actually get a decent number of reviews on ff.net). *Sigh*.
I love those quotes from Ursula LeGuin.
I also like Cormac McCarthy as an author, and I guess he doesn't really follow the rules.
#430
Posté 07 février 2012 - 04:22
Shadow of Light Dragon
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Klidi wrote...
I guess I'm missing something. I see this advice 'cut out adjectives and adverbs', 'use simple words', 'make the story flow easily' all the time. And I fail to see how is that 'creative writing'. Sure, there are times when I want to read a book like that, e.g. on the beach or in the places where it's difficult to concentrate. But in most cases, I want more than just easy flow with unexpected twist in the end. I want challenge. I want the story to make me stop and think. And I want beauty. In the story, it means language. I want it to be creative, fresh, innovative. And funny.
That is why I dislike generalizations in recommendations for writers (in fact, I dislike any kind of generalizations). Not all readers are the same: we like different styles, diffrent things, and have different reasons why we read or write. To push forward one style as 'the best' or 'correct', is anti-creative, imho. Just because the author of the book written in such style managed to get the book published and sold, doesn't mean it should be now copied by everyone.
BevH is correct. Gaider's advice was specifically for short fiction, and he even had some caveats at the start--the prime one being breaking rules is fine so long as you break them with style.
A heavily descriptive story might be the style of the writer, and I daresay there are readers who will love stuff like that, but even those stories have to flow within their writing styles. It's not only about pace IMO; it's about sentence structure and word selection, the flow of the reading as opposed to the flow of the overall tale.
Sentences have a beat and a rhythm just like music does. It's possible to have them cut short or be that one syllable too long, make them disjointed or so run on to each other the reader has trouble taking a mental breath because they don't know where the next fullstop is gonna be.
The melody can evolve or change completely. But to anyone engrossed in the music, a stutter, a wrong note, a series of short sharp notes instead of long and languid ones, you can hear when something isn't quite in tune with the rest.*
My 2c anyway.
***Which can be useful to those who know how to creatively abuse it.
**I don't think flow can be codified, or should be. I know that when I write, the rhythm is something I have to feel as part. I don't try talking about my processes much, so I apologise if my explanations don't make sense.
#431
Posté 07 février 2012 - 07:15
Firky
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Hi writerinos.
Popping in from Asunder discussion too. The comp has given me a kick in the pants. I've had several bits of modded content for the Origins toolset under construction and, dammit, I'm determined to actually finish one. Just one, probably.
I'm trying to devise a different system for player dialogue which doesn't deal with personality, because it seems to suit the content of the tiny mod better, but I'll probably come back to get feedback at a later stage. We're writers but we're gamers too, right?
On music. I taught composition to HS students for 6 years, amoung the other musical bits. The great thing about writing music is that you have to follow very strict rules, until you get the hang of it. Then the real creativity follows and there is much beauty to be found in breaking the rules. But I tended to find that you need fundamentals first. I'm approaching writing the same way. Fundamentals first.
And on flow, I'm surprised no-one's mentioned segway/segue. I can't write paragraphs that don't segue. And, also, chapters. Like, I really love a whole chapter that ends on something like, "Of course, that's when things for our hero got worse." Can't put the bloody book down then, right?
Popping in from Asunder discussion too. The comp has given me a kick in the pants. I've had several bits of modded content for the Origins toolset under construction and, dammit, I'm determined to actually finish one. Just one, probably.
I'm trying to devise a different system for player dialogue which doesn't deal with personality, because it seems to suit the content of the tiny mod better, but I'll probably come back to get feedback at a later stage. We're writers but we're gamers too, right?
On music. I taught composition to HS students for 6 years, amoung the other musical bits. The great thing about writing music is that you have to follow very strict rules, until you get the hang of it. Then the real creativity follows and there is much beauty to be found in breaking the rules. But I tended to find that you need fundamentals first. I'm approaching writing the same way. Fundamentals first.
And on flow, I'm surprised no-one's mentioned segway/segue. I can't write paragraphs that don't segue. And, also, chapters. Like, I really love a whole chapter that ends on something like, "Of course, that's when things for our hero got worse." Can't put the bloody book down then, right?
#432
Posté 07 février 2012 - 10:50
Klidi
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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Gaider's advice was specifically for short fiction, and he even had some caveats at the start--the prime one being breaking rules is fine so long as you break them with style.
Let's agree we disagree. I don't think that there is only one type of 'short fiction' for which this advice would be generally valid. There as as many genres and types of short fiction as there are of long fiction, so I find general advices about style of short fiction silly.
Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
A heavily descriptive story might be the style of the writer, and I daresay there are readers who will love stuff like that, but even those stories have to flow within their writing styles. It's not only about pace IMO; it's about sentence structure and word selection, the flow of the reading as opposed to the flow of the overall tale.
Sentences have a beat and a rhythm just like music does. It's possible to have them cut short or be that one syllable too long, make them disjointed or so run on to each other the reader has trouble taking a mental breath because they don't know where the next fullstop is gonna be.
The melody can evolve or change completely. But to anyone engrossed in the music, a stutter, a wrong note, a series of short sharp notes instead of long and languid ones, you can hear when something isn't quite in tune with the rest.*
I agree with that. But the sentence structure and word choice, that's already work with the language. The author should use the structure and words that work best for the story, that express what he wants, to achieve the desired effect and rhythm. And imho, it shouldn't matter if the word is an adjective or adverb, if it's a simple word or more rare, or if the author invented that word; what should matter is that it was the best option for that sentence.
Saying that short story should use certain style, cut out adjectives and adverbs, etc. is for me equally silly as to say that all short songs should prefer only one rhythm - and present any other style as 'breaking the rules'.
I'm sorry, but no matter which author would say that, or how many times I will hear it, I won't accept it - as I said, I find it anti-creative and boring.
#433
Posté 07 février 2012 - 01:00
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Generalizing to a potentially useless extent, I'm slowly converging on taking "Be interesting" as the best advice.
It's good, because I think that's really how you get readers. You offer them something interesting.
It's useless, because readers have very divergent interests.
Some readers like stories much like the ones they've already read, just a bit different. Some readers want strikingly original works. Some readers are comfortable with a standard genre prose style. Some want something more outre and literary. Some want short, some want long; some want humor, some want drama.
I have two stories, both around 30K words, up on FF.net. They were both written at about the same time, around a year ago. My writing style and quality in both are similar; they have similar strengths and weaknesses, I think. One has gotten 10x more hits than the other.
It's not a 10x better story. It's interesting to 10x more people, is all. Alas that the less popular one is probably 3x more interesting to me. Isn't that always the way of it?
Now, that tempts me, sometimes, to rant about people's tastes and how they're WRONG for not liking the thing I like better. Don't they understand all the Very New and Interesting Things I did in the less popular story?
Surely they understand; they don't care. It doesn't interest them, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'll continue with the sequel to the less popular story, because it's more interesting to me, and because of the very encouraging and sometimes touching feedback I've gotten from the people who not only recognized what was Very New and Interesting about it, but who had been looking for a story with those elements.
But what I'm not allowed to do is, knowing full well what the mainstream fandom likes, start complaining that they don't spontaneously gravitate to my story.
I think a lot of generalized writing advice is aimed at telling you what is, in the mainstream, considered good form. If you don't want to be a part of the mainstream, that's awesome - but recognize that you'll be appealing to a smaller group of readers.
(And postscript - it's also awesome to write as a part of the mainstream. Having tastes that align with a majority doesn't make anyone inferior or less discriminating, just as having minority tastes doesn't automatically make you superior or more interesting.)
It's good, because I think that's really how you get readers. You offer them something interesting.
It's useless, because readers have very divergent interests.
Some readers like stories much like the ones they've already read, just a bit different. Some readers want strikingly original works. Some readers are comfortable with a standard genre prose style. Some want something more outre and literary. Some want short, some want long; some want humor, some want drama.
I have two stories, both around 30K words, up on FF.net. They were both written at about the same time, around a year ago. My writing style and quality in both are similar; they have similar strengths and weaknesses, I think. One has gotten 10x more hits than the other.
It's not a 10x better story. It's interesting to 10x more people, is all. Alas that the less popular one is probably 3x more interesting to me.
Isn't that always the way of it?Now, that tempts me, sometimes, to rant about people's tastes and how they're WRONG for not liking the thing I like better. Don't they understand all the Very New and Interesting Things I did in the less popular story?
Surely they understand; they don't care. It doesn't interest them, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'll continue with the sequel to the less popular story, because it's more interesting to me, and because of the very encouraging and sometimes touching feedback I've gotten from the people who not only recognized what was Very New and Interesting about it, but who had been looking for a story with those elements.
But what I'm not allowed to do is, knowing full well what the mainstream fandom likes, start complaining that they don't spontaneously gravitate to my story.
I think a lot of generalized writing advice is aimed at telling you what is, in the mainstream, considered good form. If you don't want to be a part of the mainstream, that's awesome - but recognize that you'll be appealing to a smaller group of readers.
(And postscript - it's also awesome to write as a part of the mainstream. Having tastes that align with a majority doesn't make anyone inferior or less discriminating, just as having minority tastes doesn't automatically make you superior or more interesting.)
#434
Posté 07 février 2012 - 03:00
Sialater
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Name: Sialater (BSN, Deviantart, FF.net) (Also, a shared account on FFN with two other coauthors: ansinna)
Location of works: Longer works are on the FFN account, short one-shots are on the DevArt Account.
Anonymous reviews allowed: No
BSN PMs: Yes
Current ongoing project: A Paragon of Virtue, Loved, The Renegade: the Sounds of Silence, The Shepard Project: Persephone Rising
Completed Project(s): The Rescue
Favorite story I've written: The Shepard Project: Persephone Rising and Loved
Favorite story/book I've read: Too many to list. I love a variety of genres and write in most of them.
Location of works: Longer works are on the FFN account, short one-shots are on the DevArt Account.
Anonymous reviews allowed: No
BSN PMs: Yes
Current ongoing project: A Paragon of Virtue, Loved, The Renegade: the Sounds of Silence, The Shepard Project: Persephone Rising
Completed Project(s): The Rescue
Favorite story I've written: The Shepard Project: Persephone Rising and Loved
Favorite story/book I've read: Too many to list. I love a variety of genres and write in most of them.
Modifié par Sialater, 07 février 2012 - 03:01 .
#435
Posté 07 février 2012 - 03:36
Sialater
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As far as the current method discussion goes... I think I'll just stay out of it.
#437
Posté 07 février 2012 - 04:25
Sialater
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LOL, just never saw anything good come from it.
And frankly, since we're all writers, we know how to truly cut one another with words. Debates with our ilk never go well. There's also the thing where, whether we mean to be insulting or not, someone will take offense because we've left it open to inference. Which, let's face it, we're all good at.
And frankly, since we're all writers, we know how to truly cut one another with words. Debates with our ilk never go well. There's also the thing where, whether we mean to be insulting or not, someone will take offense because we've left it open to inference. Which, let's face it, we're all good at.
#438
Posté 07 février 2012 - 04:56
Corker
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I know. I drafted and scrapped three different versions of what I posted over a 12-hour period, debating whether or not it was a good idea to post. It probably wasn't. I'm a weak woman.
#439
Posté 07 février 2012 - 05:02
Sialater
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At the end of the day, just treat this like we're all sitting in a pub around a table and sharing a pitcher of our favorite beer (or adult beverage of your choice -- or non-adult beverage, if you prefer), espousing different viewpoints of writer-dom.
Ain't none of us right, in other words. Now who's getting the next pitcher?
Ain't none of us right, in other words. Now who's getting the next pitcher?
#440
Posté 07 février 2012 - 05:28
Maria13
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maxernst wrote...
I agree. I don't think broad generalizations in any creative endeavour are ever correct. There is potential expressive value in anything you can do with language, even deliberate misspellings and sentence fragments, and other grammatical errors. You shouldn't feel compelled to cut things out of your story on general principle unless you think they really don't add anything.
On the subject of redundancy (although not really descriptive redundancy), I'll present two quotes from
The Diary of the Rose," by Ursula K. LeGuin where repetition is used expressively: And goodness me, three adverbs describing the same verb!
I lied. I lied. I lied. I lied deliberately, knowingly, well. She lied. She is a liar! She is an intellectual, too. She is a lie.
I am Rosa. I am the rose. The rose, I am the rose. The rose with no flower, the rose all thorns, the mind he made, the hand he touched, the winter rose.
But the example you cite is rhetoric the art of oratory, particularly useful in the first person (as in the example you cite) or in the reporting of direct speech:
"The first rule of Fight Club is... No-one talks about fight club. The second rule of fight club is [and now everyone is reciting this in their heads] No-one talks about fight club." Chuck Palahniuk.
Which of course can greatly enliven any narrative, but which is also, in a way, a rule unto itself.
Modifié par Maria13, 07 février 2012 - 05:30 .
#441
Posté 07 février 2012 - 05:42
Klidi
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Sialater wrote...
At the end of the day, just treat this like we're all sitting in a pub around a table and sharing a pitcher of our favorite beer (or adult beverage of your choice -- or non-adult beverage, if you prefer), espousing different viewpoints of writer-dom.
Ain't none of us right, in other words. Now who's getting the next pitcher?
I really thought that it was like that. I've read it again and I don't see any 'cutting by words'...
Oh well. You are right - it's better to stay out.
#442
Posté 07 février 2012 - 05:53
Sialater
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Klidi wrote...
Sialater wrote...
At the end of the day, just treat this like we're all sitting in a pub around a table and sharing a pitcher of our favorite beer (or adult beverage of your choice -- or non-adult beverage, if you prefer), espousing different viewpoints of writer-dom.
Ain't none of us right, in other words. Now who's getting the next pitcher?
I really thought that it was like that. I've read it again and I don't see any 'cutting by words'...
Oh well. You are right - it's better to stay out.
See? I wasn't even singling anyone out. But you inferred that. It was just a general caution.
We're all just gonna have to remember the pub thing.
Modifié par Sialater, 07 février 2012 - 05:54 .
#443
Posté 07 février 2012 - 06:52
rolson00
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Hey everyone didn'tknow about this until DG told me on twitter i have a couple of short storys i have done and would like to share.
1st one is about varric telling leliana how the elves stared their uprising its called Rise of the Elven Crows
2nd one is about a Mercenary group in Mass Effect on Omega its called Mass Effect: Rise and Fall of the Purple Hawks and is set two weeks after mass effect 1 both are just the beginning but would love some feedback as i really want to improve.
currently hoping to write a Dragon Age story set during DA2 before Anders blows up a chantry so when i make a start i will be posting updates.
thanks
1st one is about varric telling leliana how the elves stared their uprising its called Rise of the Elven Crows
2nd one is about a Mercenary group in Mass Effect on Omega its called Mass Effect: Rise and Fall of the Purple Hawks and is set two weeks after mass effect 1 both are just the beginning but would love some feedback as i really want to improve.
currently hoping to write a Dragon Age story set during DA2 before Anders blows up a chantry so when i make a start i will be posting updates.
thanks
Modifié par rolson00, 07 février 2012 - 06:55 .
#444
Guest_joiedelavie_*
Posté 07 février 2012 - 06:57
Guest_joiedelavie_*
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Late to the party. Again. 
Warning: Wall of text follows.
____________________
tklivory wrote...
I find, and do, exactly the same - I even occasionally do it in conversation, much to the consternation of some of my friends - and often shun thesauruses. I worry about coming off the same way.
________________________
On Gaider's advice / article discussion:
Words are beautiful, emotional things, and much fun to toy with. I enjoy writing (mostly totally fictional) "technical detail" in my fiction, and so in some chapters employ a fair bit of description of weaponry, armour, towns, etc.
There's also the fact that, in romance fiction, every little detail about another character can matter, depending on how you write - describing a character's beauty / certain characteristics can be integral.
However, I did find that I needed to cut some of my more elongated, flowery prose, because I was actually getting out of breath reading it aloud. Sometimes the little things add the perfect details without neding to painstakingly write every raindrop on every flower, and the sunlight shining on the dew, and the shadows of the trees on the long, lazily swishing grass as her pale, slender fingers twined through it while she inhaled the sweet summer air...
*ahem.* Or something like that. I tend to switch between clinical, concise sentences and slightly meandering prose, depending on my mood and the style of the piece.
However, writing is such a personal, stylized thing that it's very hard to give advice about it. Neil Gaiman, one of my favourite writers (and a bestselling one), uses rambling, thoughtful prose, but does it in such a way that it actually works (and yes, in short story format, too). So, as said, what you can handle well in your fiction just depends how you personally write, I guess.
_____________
And I love sialater's pub metaphor. Hear hear. This round's on me. *starts moving toward non-existent virtual bar with twenty pound note and charitable grin for all at the thread / table*
Warning: Wall of text follows.____________________
tklivory wrote...
Finally, another language aficionado!I will frequently use words because they fit *exactly* what I want to say, even if, in retrospect, they aren't common usage or even very well known. Sometimes this is good, as I can frequently reduce a phrase or even a sentence down to a word (like 'penultimate' instead of 'the one before the last'). Other times, this means I likely come off as a bit of a either a work dork or a snob (maybe? dunno).
I find, and do, exactly the same - I even occasionally do it in conversation, much to the consternation of some of my friends - and often shun thesauruses. I worry about coming off the same way.
________________________
On Gaider's advice / article discussion:
Words are beautiful, emotional things, and much fun to toy with. I enjoy writing (mostly totally fictional) "technical detail" in my fiction, and so in some chapters employ a fair bit of description of weaponry, armour, towns, etc.
There's also the fact that, in romance fiction, every little detail about another character can matter, depending on how you write - describing a character's beauty / certain characteristics can be integral.
However, I did find that I needed to cut some of my more elongated, flowery prose, because I was actually getting out of breath reading it aloud. Sometimes the little things add the perfect details without neding to painstakingly write every raindrop on every flower, and the sunlight shining on the dew, and the shadows of the trees on the long, lazily swishing grass as her pale, slender fingers twined through it while she inhaled the sweet summer air...
*ahem.* Or something like that. I tend to switch between clinical, concise sentences and slightly meandering prose, depending on my mood and the style of the piece.
However, writing is such a personal, stylized thing that it's very hard to give advice about it. Neil Gaiman, one of my favourite writers (and a bestselling one), uses rambling, thoughtful prose, but does it in such a way that it actually works (and yes, in short story format, too). So, as said, what you can handle well in your fiction just depends how you personally write, I guess.
_____________
And I love sialater's pub metaphor. Hear hear. This round's on me. *starts moving toward non-existent virtual bar with twenty pound note and charitable grin for all at the thread / table*
Modifié par joiedelavie, 07 février 2012 - 06:58 .
#445
Posté 07 février 2012 - 07:16
Sialater
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@joidelavie: I'll take an amber. Whatever's on tap.
#446
Posté 07 février 2012 - 07:58
Klidi
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rolson00 wrote...
Hey everyone didn'tknow about this until DG told me on twitter i have a couple of short storys i have done and would like to share.
Wait. What did DG told you on twitter about? The Writers Lounge? *runs to Twitter* OMG, he did!
How awesome is that? 
#447
Posté 07 février 2012 - 08:05
Sialater
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Wait... he tweeted about us?
Really? Linky link link!
/resists urge to make a twitter account for the 400th time.
Really? Linky link link!
/resists urge to make a twitter account for the 400th time.
Modifié par Sialater, 07 février 2012 - 08:06 .
#449
Posté 07 février 2012 - 08:11
Sialater
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LOL, so, he's pimping us out when people ask him for writing advice?
#450
Posté 07 février 2012 - 08:17
tklivory
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I know, right? I just saw that too. *squee*Klidi wrote...
rolson00 wrote...
Hey everyone didn'tknow about this until DG told me on twitter i have a couple of short storys i have done and would like to share.
Wait. What did DG told you on twitter about? The Writers Lounge? *runs to Twitter* OMG, he did!
(heh, only writers would go all fangirl over something like that, ya know. Heh.)Ahem. IPA, for me, thanks.
@ Sialater - there are worse things than to be pimped out for writing advice by David Gaider, amirite?
Modifié par tklivory, 07 février 2012 - 08:19 .
