973 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

I call it writer's OCD: the inability to leave well enough alone.  I wrote my Star Trek novel as a lark more than 10 years ago, and I still fight to stop myself and go back and fix it.    I finally allowed myself to update it to allow for changes in the Star Trek canon, but had to stop myself from adding chapters, &c, as I was putting it on FF.net


That's one reason why I'm holding off on putting my Blight fic up yet, because every time I read the opening chapter, I find something to tweak.  I'll probably finish the rought draft of the whole darn thing before I actually post chapter one at this rate...

[Tryynity]

Im not so much of a perfectionist with grammer, words, punctuation, structure on the outset. Reason: its more important for me to get my thoughts down - before they are gone - sometimes scenes come like a flash, a character says something to another that is just perfect - and I have to record it.

I fix it up later - and only recently since being on FanFic site and employing betas have I begun learning how to improve.

When I force a scene out though - like what you are saying - I am never happy with it - eventually I will accept it so I can move on to the scenes I like and maybe revisit the one i dont and fix it later should inspiration come, it rarely does come which is why it was forced out in the first place.

I am still stuck at Redcliffe - I wrote it out weeks ago and I do not like it - what is frustrating is I cant determine why. I think I need a filler scene which I am going to try this weekend.

It is frustrating - I feel your pain - I am a long way from having Writer's OCD though LOL probably the exact opposite which is probably worse have to make myself care more.

Modifié par Tryynity, 04 décembre 2011 - 01:31 .

[Klidi]

Hm. When I finally decide that I'm going to publish something, I'm usually pretty happy about it - though I'm aware that it's not perfect. As my chapters back from when I didn't have any beta show.

But the content and the dialogue - I have to be happy about those, or I'll scrap it and start over. Some chapters of FTF were rewritten for six or seven times, just moments before I wanted to send them to my beta. I keep the scenes and lines I really liked, and sometimes use it in my oneshots or in other chapters, but I have to be really happy about the story before I send it to beta.

If I later find out it could be even better - well, that's the sign I'm improving, right?

[Tryynity]

Yes I have to be happy about the content in regards to story - the rest is kinda MEH to me - my focus is always storyline and characters. It has to be interesting and say what I want - what I need now are skills to deliver it in a better way.

Redcliffe still is not posted for that reason. The characters actions/conversations are boring and flat its just so BLEH Im getting annoyed.

I got my betas to start at the beginning and work forward. My first beta was slow - my new one is fast and now Im slow at making the corrections LOL otherwise I would have it all revised by now.

You may find you will be able to beta your first chapters after spending enough time with your beta.

I have learned alot. I stopped learning in 6th grade - didnt finish high school - and didnt go to College or University. I was that student that sat up the back of the class staring out the window. I gave up on learning because I was never academic blah blah blah. This is something I really want to do well.

I loved music and my music teacher told me I was one of the most gifted students she had ever taught but I didnt have the skill. I misinterpreted that as I would never be much good technically and eventually gave up the piano - I understand now what she meant was I needed to practice more.

My art teacher was different - she was impressed by my imagination and creativity and told me it was a shame I would never be much good. LOL heh she was honest

What I am saying is - Practice - Practice - Practice good technique and skills like any craft or sport and surrounding yourself with good writers/writing is the key.

[Corker]

I do sometimes write through or around things. Not often, because I generally go linearly. But I don't have much writing time. So if I'm floundering on how to get from Waypoint 1 to Waypoint 2, I write a placeholder of some kind. "And they do some stuff and say some things and they end up at the Circle Tower." And then I pick up at the Circle Tower, and things start flowing again.

Once I'm writing, I find I can usually go back to the placeholder and put in a decent paragraph or two.

But I haven't (yet) done this for anything larger than a brief transition that's holding me up. I've stalled after one chapter of my next Witch Hunt Gang story, and I wonder if it's because I'm precisely stuck on a transition. (Or it's because I'm off writing two other things and some weekly prompts. And some poems. Not sure. >.< )

There's also chapters that are more interesting to me than others (I have a fairly detailed outline), and I'm toying with the idea of writing non-linearly for the first time. Buuut that makes me nervous - what if the pieces don't fit together after all? That would be unpleasant.

[tklivory]

If you want to write non-linearly, you could try to use a writing software like yWriter5.  It takes a bit of getting used to, and I never use it for one-off stuff, but I've found that it helps when (mostly in my original stuff that has to be complete before anyone sees it but friends/family) I need to be able to easily go not just between Chapters, but also scenes.  It also makes it really easy to rearrange scenes within chapters, move scenes to different chapters, &c, because it treats a scene as an 'entry' and you can put that 'entry' anywhere.  It also allows you to focus on one scene, and easily move to another scene if you want to.

As I said, mostly recommended for longer works or if you want to try a hand at writing non-linearly.  Once I got into it, it's amazing how much easier it became to keep track of things.  You can even use it to do things like track the POV character, which characters are in which scene, write a quick synopsis of a scene for a bird's eye view of the chapter, put in an outline, &c.  It's a pretty thorough program, and its free!  (and I think you can use it on Mac/Windows/Linux)

I'm using it for my Blight fic, and I already have the final scene with Cauthrien at the Landsmeet sketched out because I had an idea about it in addition to the first couple of chapters, and I don't have to worry about keeping track of a separate file since it is all in the same 'Project' file.  It's really helpful.

Modifié par tklivory, 04 décembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Asch Lavigne]

Just one question: Because lots of people have been talking about fan fiction, is this for fan fiction only? I have no problem if it is, I would just like to know as that is something I am not into. Otherwise I would be more than happy to join. I am also a part of a very small writer's group in real life.

[tklivory]

@ Asch - Well, I think for the actual stories we post, Bioware would prefer we keep it to DA:O stuff within the bounds of this forum (as Sialater was reluctant to post even Mass Effect stuff in this thread). So that means mostly fan fiction since I don't think David Gaider is going to waltz in with non-fan fiction (i.e., Bioware-endorsed) writing for DA:O (though I wouldn't object if he did!)

However, for a discussion of writing, its perils, tips & tricks, requests for input, commiseration, venting about writer's block, &c? We'd love to have you join us! It would be great to have someone who could contribute in other ways (like, for example, maybe you could help with concrit, or to judge the occasional Challenge we decide to have, or post links about writing and discuss the craft with us).

This thread is designed a place for writers to gather and be able to talk exclusively about writing. Although the context will often center around DA:O and its characters, I believe most people here have outside interests, and likely wouldn't object to meanderings around for other topics. XD

[Tryynity]

Yes Asch by all means join in, glad to have you.

- it is primarily a Writer's Lounge so if you write, join in and discuss writer type topics and please add to.
- Links though, would be for BIOWARE FanFiction which I think is fair as this is Bioware's forum. I have no problems with Mass Effect FanFic or DA2 except it may cross over into *SPOILERS* accidentally - this is a thread in a *SPOILERS ALLOWED* forum for DAO & Awakenings and so is safe for links/discussion for those games specifically.

But for the sake of not spreading us out over more threads in other forums - it should be ok if people are careful about what they post/discuss re other games.

The fact that so many of us are spread out over so many fan threads is why I tried to create one zone to meet y'all.

Modifié par Tryynity, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[tklivory]

All right, since I'm used to updating my central thread with new stuff every Sunday, I thought I'd do so here for my weekly "stuff I've dun" and "stuff I shoulda dun but didn't" list.

Stories I've published since last Sunday (11/27/2011) - with apologies to Tryynity for stealing her totally awesome rating system :


Soldier's Peak?!? More Like Soldier's Weak! - The first in a new series, The Further Adventures of Dailana Cousland, based on my Valley Girl Warden.  Rated F for Funny  and TR for Totally Radical!


This We Share - Fill for the ZevThread prompt 'First Night' about Zevran Arainai's first night in the camp with the Warden's party after the failed ambush.  Rated HR  for Hankies Recommended


All Alone in the Moonlight - Fill for the Alistair Thread prompt 'Memories'.  This is another Dailana Cousland story, but she astonishingly shows some actual dimension.  I was surprised too!  Rated FF for Funny Fluffernutter


Once Upon a Time: Oghren - The next chapter in my 'Once Upon a Time' series about Oghren.  Rated D for Drunk.


Things I Shoulda Done But Didn't:

I was supposed to update my Arlathan-era Rise of the Wolf, but instead of writing the *next* chapter in the story, I ended up writing the last two chapters!  So I didn't actually write anything I could publish.    Slap on the wrist for me.   I will probably get it done and up in the next couple of days, but I missed my self-imposed deadline on this one. 


Anyway, concrit if you want, read if you want, but no biggie either way if you don't wanna!


Long live the Writer's Lounge!

Modifié par tklivory, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[Sialater]

I think y'all are misunderstanding the advice to just "write" and worry about perfection later. That advice is meant to get you writing, period. If you're held up on a word... well... keep in mind, one word won't make or break your scene.

The main purpose of that advice is to warn you not to get so bogged down in details that you ignore the rest of your story. I've written ONE complete novel in my 20 years of writing. ONE. Because I could never stop going back and "fixing." I couldn't just get the stuff down on paper and get on to the next scene. So.... that was counter productive. If you can tweak while still reaching The End, then go for it. Some of us can't.

[tklivory]

@ Sialater - Yeah, my sibling who writes for a living can't read their own books after they're published because of this phenomenon. However, this is where good editors step in, put their foot down, and say "Do this, this, and this, and then we're going to publish it, no ifs ands or buts!" Yay, editors! They help prevent the writer's OCD from keeping stuff out of publication...

That's another reason I make sure, on longer works, I 1) have a thorough outline to work from and 2) use my special software for writing. That way, if I hit a wall in one place, I can consult the outline and jump to a different place. I haven't been back into writing long enough to finish anything truly substantive in terms of original works yet, but I do know that 'publishing' my Star Trek novel on FF.net put the kibosh on 'tweaking' it... as long as I don't read it. *blush*

[Sialater]

 Well, it's why I finally gave in to the plot bunnies and started writing fic.  I had to do something to get past that.  The Rescue, to this day, is still the longest thing I've finished.

[RagingCyclone]

I see where Sialater is coming from, but it is hard for many writers to do that. I personally write from a "stream of consciousness" style. I sit down with a idea, and then start writing. Kind of like an artist with a painting (Dad was an art teacher so this may be part of it) start and then see where the story goes. Sometimes on short stories this works extremely well. On longer works it can send you on a tangent...and then it's good to step back and sometimes scrap something because of that tangent...or keep that tangent if it's actually better than what you planned.

[Sialater]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't outline beyond a vague idea in my head. And tangents are often quite awesome and lead you down wonderful, productive rabbit holes, but you won't get to them if all you do is get that first sentence/scene/chapter PERFECT. You have to make yourself acknowledge that no matter what, you will always find something to change. Always. To you, it will never be perfect.

So, get it as close to, and move on.

Otherwise, the inner trolls will win.

[Klidi]

I think I understood the advice and that it's meant to get me to writing. But what's the point of writing of thousands of words I'm not satisfied with? And yes, I believe that one word can 'make or break the scene'. Of course, it depends which word it is.

Why is quantity so important? Is Salinger, worse author than, say, Danielle Steel, because he wrote only ONE novel, while she writes three per year?
Because personally I'd much prefer to write like him than like her.
Even if I spent 20 years on it, I'd prefer to write one well written novel with every word chosen carefully and with every sentence polished, than 80 cheap copy-paste mass products.

But I guess I'm weird - because when I finish the story and publish it, I acknowledge that it is as perfect as I can write it now. Maybe in half year, I will improve enough to see that something could have been done differently, but now it is perfect. I am satisfied, I enjoy reading it, I laugh at jokes, I cry at depressive scenes. How can I ever expect it to work for the others if it doesn't work for me?

Modifié par Klidi, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[RagingCyclone]

Klidi---I think what is meant is the "practice" of writing. Salinger may have written only the one work, but we know he wrote in other forms that were never published. I personally write the stories I have here as practice for the novel I am working on. These stories, for me, help to flesh out ideas that I want to pursue such as character development and scene set-up. I do these so when I get to the novel parts (it's a WW2 story based on my grandfather's experiences as a POW) I can get the perfection I want.

[Klidi]

I don't say it can't work for anyone - I just say it doesn't work for me. If someone feels it helps, then sure, by all means, go for it and I'll be happy for you.

I agree with Hemingway: "The most essential gift for a good writer is a built-in, shockproof, shi.t detector."
I simply see no advantage in turning the 'shi.t detector' - alias 'inner editor' - off, just to write more.

Writing a lot in a little time can help me practice... writing a lot in a little time. I can't see how it can help me write better. For me, it is a complete waste of time. If I'm not editing it, I'm not improving; if I'm not improving, I dot see it as 'practice'. If it's not a practice, and it can't be published because I'm not satisfied = wasted time. That time would be spent much better on rewriting of the one paragraph I want to really use. And I'm back with my slow writing.

Modifié par Klidi, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Sialater]

Klidi... that was a rather insulting way of putting it. Quality over quantity is not what I'm saying, but whatever.

I'm done for the day. I'm taking this too personally. Your statements pissed me off far more than I can handle right now.

[Klidi]

Sialater wrote...

Klidi... that was a rather insulting way of putting it. Quality over quantity is not what I'm saying, but whatever.

I'm done for the day. I'm taking this too personally. Your statements pissed me off far more than I can handle right now.

Sorry for that. I did not mean to offend you.

But when I read that I 'missunderstood' the advice and 'didn't get itspoint at all' I wass also pissed off. Especially as it continued that it doesn't matter on one word, it won't make or break the scene.

'Why do you fuss over one word, that's not important, what's important is to write more and to publish it because you will never be satisfied with it anyway.'

Perhaps that's not what you meant, and if so, I'm sorry. But that's how it sounded to me.

[Sialater]

Klidi wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Klidi... that was a rather insulting way of putting it. Quality over quantity is not what I'm saying, but whatever.

I'm done for the day. I'm taking this too personally. Your statements pissed me off far more than I can handle right now.

Sorry for that. I did not mean to offend you.

But when I read that I 'missunderstood' the advice and 'didn't get itspoint at all' I wass also pissed off. Especially as it continued that it doesn't matter on one word, it won't make or break the scene.

'Why do you fuss over one word, that's not important, what's important is to write more and to publish it because you will never be satisfied with it anyway.'

Perhaps that's not what you meant, and if so, I'm sorry. But that's how it sounded to me.

You did misunderstand the advice.  If you're still progressing with your story, so be it.  You're one of the few who doesn't get bogged down in minutiae and never progresses.  The point of the advice was to not get bogged down in the details until the inner trolls win and you quit.  If you still hunt for that perfect word and still finish the story, more power to you.  Most of us can't.  That does NOT make some of us JDSaligner or Danielle Steele's.  (And BTW, Steele is just as accomplished a word smith as Salinger, she doesn't, however, deviate from plot and character formulas -- that's why she's a commercial writer and Salinger's an artist.)

If you can progress to the end of something doing it your way, that's wonderful.  I can't.  I can and will go back and obsess until I give myself an ulcer and I've snatched myself bald.  I worked on the same novel for 10 years.  I started it when I was 16, yes -- I'm quite a bit older now.  The main character was a Sue but I'm still in love with the world she inhabited.  I just needed practice and experience until I could let it live.  So, I set it aside.  Unfinished, restarted at least 3 or 4 times, trying to get each word right, but it's what I had to do.  

I cried when I did it.  

And please tell me where I said "publish" instead of "finish"?  If I used the word publish, then it was wrong of me.  I meant to say, "finish."  Which is an entirely different animal.

ETA: For clarity.  Missed a word.

Modifié par Sialater, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[tklivory]

I think I was the one who brought up 'publish' because I was talking in the context of my sibling (who is published) and the relationship with the editor who had to play 'bad cop' and stop the revisioning at a point in time, so that may have been where that word entered into the conversation. And my gist (at the time) was merely that, when you make your living as a writer, you *have* to publish (if you want to eat XD anyway), and it is the job of the editor to step in if necessary and stop revisions.

For hobby, love or practice writing, sometimes you need to keep writing no matter what.   Sometimes stopping and *looking* at what you're writing is what you need!  Some of the best lessons I ever learned was when I put aside my Star Trek novel (which was over 200K words at the time) for 3 months (deliberately, and with great reluctance). I came back after those 3 months and cut it down to 90K because, at the time, that was the size required by Pocket Books to even consider publication. So I learned a *heck* of a lot not by writing, but by *evaluating* my writing. As Sialater says, it can be very difficult sometimes to put aside something you've poured your sweat and blood into. I deleted everything I cut out (and now wish I hadn't - oh, well!)

And I'm still guilty of going back to my forum posts from yesterday, or my old blog posts, finding a typo or a break of one of my cardinal rules of writing (like no repetition, &c) and flinching almost physically. So, yeah.

I do know that when I 'publish' stuff on FF.net (i.e., post it), I sometimes have to physically force myself NOT to change things. There are exceptions - like I read a chapter and realized I'd given a character the wrong eye color in a description - but in general, I've been able to restrain myself . Mostly... And been able to write more *other* stuff because of it.

Having said all that wall o' text, I will say this: going back and reading something your wrote yonks ago can be a great benefit for analyzing how you've progressed as a writer, help you pinpoint bad habits, and sometimes (even) read something and go "Wow, I wrote that? Not bad!" XD

/end rambling post...

Modifié par tklivory, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[Klidi]

Did you read the article I linked, 'My Slow Prose Manifesto'? Let me quote from it, because it's seems to me we are talking about two different things

“Turn off your internal editor,” you might tell me, to use a popular expression in writing workshops. Or maybe I should write “shi.tty first drafts,” as Anne Lamott advises, before editing them into much better versions.

I’ve been a fan of Anne Lamott since I read her first novel, Hard Laughter, which made me laugh so hard I almost choked on a sandwich. But the composing process she describes—which involves forcing oneself to keep typing without worrying about the writing being terrible and without backtracking to make changes—is my idea of hell. Forcing myself to ignore writing that’s “off” is like forcing myself not to pick out slimy bits of decaying greens as I make a salad.

Refrain from going back to fix the previous sentence when I just thought of a better way to say it? Why? If I don’t change it now, I might not remember the improvement when I come back to do that second draft. And if I suddenly realize I should have taken a different direction a paragraph ago, why not backtrack?

I did not  "misunderstand" the advice. And neither did Ms. Ohlson. We understand. We just disagree. Or rather - we say that this advice does not work for us. At. All.

For her - and for me, too - that advice is a hell. It's about 'don't fuss over that word now, you'll come back to it later' - but for me, similarly as to Ms Ohlson, 'later' might mean 'never', with the result of leaving the poor word in the story.

And I can't proceed with the story knowing that something is not the best I could do. Knowing that will block my mind completely, until it is solved. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it brings satisfaction.

It's not about 'who's better writer', it's about different way of thinking, different approach to the problem. For me, forcing myself to  write without editing is just producing quantity, but not quality. I could not be satisfied with the result. But, again - if it works for someone else, and they're satisfied, then it's totally fine by me.

Modifié par Klidi, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[tklivory]

You know, I wonder: how many people out there work in multiple steps?  I think everyone does write in steps, but some people merge the steps together and so don't realize it, and others separate them out and give them names?

In writing, there are 3 distinct stages: conception, execution, revision (fancy words, but bear with me here for a moment...)

Conception: developement of the idea (making an outline, plotting out scenes, whatever - this can be written or mental)

Execution: putting the words onto the page in narrative/prose/poetic format (the 'writing' aspect of it)

Revision: tweaking/fine-tuning/perfecting the words on the page (NOTE: this is OUTSIDE the realm of having a Beta reader or an editor enter the process - this is an author's revision ONLY!)


It sounds like Klidi (and me, particularly on my shorter fic) is most comfortable with doing all three steps at the same time, or at least steps 2 and 3 at the same time.  I would venture to guess that many writers do that.  This could also be called 'linear' writing.  In this scenario, you change things as you go, and tend to write the story from beginning to end, with stops along the way to go back and revise earlier parts of the story to match developments that may have come up later in the story.

Other people are more comfortable with all three steps being very much separated.  I think most 'commercial' writers have to separate out the steps because most of them have several longer works going at the same time. I believe (forgive me if I'm making presumptions) that Sialater would fall more into this category because to her, the act of doing 'Revision' while doing the 'Execution' makes her have to fix everything right now! and stop forward process of the other writing, so they get it all out, then go back and apply Revision after the Execution phase is done.  (I am like this on my longer works if I don't force myself to use discipline.  But, like Klidi said, that's just my personal writing habit.)

Thoughts?  Pushback?  Slaps upside the head?   I love analyzing the process of writing and how people differ.

Also, that quote, Klidi?  Sounds like that Anne Lamott didn't do Revision at all!  I would die! 

BU T (having said that) I would highly recommend the "force yourself to write" thing once in a while for any writer, not to produce stuff you're proud of, but literally as a writing exercise.  I wrote a black noir boilerplate 10K work like that once, pushed it all out, and to this day it's my Mom's favorite story that I wrote.  I hate it, but she loves it. *shrugs*  In a way, NaNoWriMo is an exercise in that, a once-a-year effort to force people to write *no matter what* and learn something about themselves along the way.

Even (or especially) if it is painful.

/end additional wall o' text rant

Modifié par tklivory, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:44 .