973 réponses à ce sujet

[Merilsell]

Klidi wrote...

But the composing process she describes—which involves forcing oneself to keep typing without worrying about the writing being terrible and without backtracking to make changes—is my idea of hell. Forcing myself to ignore writing that’s “off” is like forcing myself not to pick out slimy bits of decaying greens as I make a salad.

Refrain from going back to fix the previous sentence when I just thought of a better way to say it? Why? If I don’t change it now, I might not remember the improvement when I come back to do that second draft. And if I suddenly realize I should have taken a different direction a paragraph ago, why not backtrack?[/i]

I did not  "misunderstand" the advice. And neither did Ms. Ohlson. We understand. We just disagree. Or rather - we say that this advice does not work for us. At. All.

For her - and for me, too - that advice is a hell. It's about 'don't fuss over that word now, you'll come back to it later' - but for me, similarly as to Ms Ohlson, 'later' might mean 'never', with the result of leaving the poor word in the story.

And I can't proceed with the story knowing that something is not the best I could do. Knowing that will block my mind completely, until it is solved. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it brings satisfaction.

It's not about 'who's better writer', it's about different way of thinking, different approach to the problem. For me, forcing myself to  write without editing is just producing quantity, but not quality. I could not be satisfied with the result. But, again - if it works for someone else, and they're satisfied, then it's totally fine by me.

^ This.

...That is all. xD

Modifié par Merilsell, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[Tryynity]

Im a big fan of whatever works for you  and be balanced in whatever you do.

Im curious as to how people determine a good writer?

For me a good writer sells books that people read and love.  They have rich worlds and enjoyable characters that people grow to love. Or in the case of FanFict - ppl read/favourite and come back and read - its not always about the bucks.

I have never read a book and judged it by how well it was contructed, or how flowery the descriptions were.  Once I read a book by an Author that I enjoy I will then read everything that Author has written.  I am sure though this is balanced by the fact it was written in a concise manner that was written correctly.

If writing for profit - you need to sell a lot of books or one really big bestseller.  Another thing is marketing - who are you writing for?  Are they going to care a great deal?   If your answer is yes then care is warranted.  Especially if your market is primarily you.  Keep in mind you can be your worst critic.  I am - I was raised on criticsm and so I automatically think everything I do is crap - hence I never did anything... until oneday I said stuff the critics, just do it.

I still listen too much to that internal critic - which is why TK still hasnt got that recording from me  - but I listen much less than I did LOL

Modifié par Tryynity, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Sialater]

I may write with the intent to sell, but I don't write for profit. If that makes sense. I'm not going to sell something I'm not happy with.

[Sialater]

Klidi wrote...

Did you read the article I linked, 'My Slow Prose Manifesto'? Let me quote from it, because it's seems to me we are talking about two different things

“Turn off your internal editor,” you might tell me, to use a popular expression in writing workshops. Or maybe I should write “shi.tty first drafts,” as Anne Lamott advises, before editing them into much better versions.

I’ve been a fan of Anne Lamott since I read her first novel, Hard Laughter, which made me laugh so hard I almost choked on a sandwich. But the composing process she describes—which involves forcing oneself to keep typing without worrying about the writing being terrible and without backtracking to make changes—is my idea of hell. Forcing myself to ignore writing that’s “off” is like forcing myself not to pick out slimy bits of decaying greens as I make a salad.

Refrain from going back to fix the previous sentence when I just thought of a better way to say it? Why? If I don’t change it now, I might not remember the improvement when I come back to do that second draft. And if I suddenly realize I should have taken a different direction a paragraph ago, why not backtrack?

I did not  "misunderstand" the advice. And neither did Ms. Ohlson. We understand. We just disagree. Or rather - we say that this advice does not work for us. At. All.

For her - and for me, too - that advice is a hell. It's about 'don't fuss over that word now, you'll come back to it later' - but for me, similarly as to Ms Ohlson, 'later' might mean 'never', with the result of leaving the poor word in the story.

And I can't proceed with the story knowing that something is not the best I could do. Knowing that will block my mind completely, until it is solved. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it brings satisfaction.

It's not about 'who's better writer', it's about different way of thinking, different approach to the problem. For me, forcing myself to  write without editing is just producing quantity, but not quality. I could not be satisfied with the result. But, again - if it works for someone else, and they're satisfied, then it's totally fine by me.

You know what?  I was going to let this go.  I really was.  

I never said either way was better.  You did.  I was trying to explain that both you and that blogger missed the point of the advice.  But hey, what the hell do I know?  

Write how you feel comfortable.  Just as long as you write.  

I'm done.  Dunno if I'll be back.  I've gotten too pissed off in too short an amount of time today with this thread in trying to explain a simple piece of writing advice that I felt was misunderstood.  I never even said I agreed with it 100%.  

[Klidi]

You know I really don't like that you repeatedly try to convince me that I don't understand the advice just because I don't agree with it or because it doesn't work for me as it does for you. I find that quite insulting.

I explained why for me it wouldn't be satisfying, but I also repeatedly
stressed that if it works for another one, it's fine with me. I don't feel 'one of the few', or special in any way. I just described what my way of writing and revising is. And obviously there are others who work the same way. Yet I would not dare to make any generalizations about 'most of us'. I do not know most of the writers in the world, so I truly cannot say. I can only speak for myself, from my experience and about my stories.

And I never said you said the part about the better writer. I was trying to explain my point, that it is about different approach to writing. Which you obviously missed.

So I really can't see what was so offensive in my post. Because all I did was to repeat that a) I understood the advice, but I find it useless because it doesn't work for me and c) repeatedly pointed out that if it works for someone, then it's fine with me.

But, you know what? You want to be pissed off with me, then suit yourself. Seriously. I don't mind.

[DreGregoire]

A warning: Do not try to avoid the language filter by sticking punctuation in between letters of the word; it is still an obvious swear word and is enough to get you banned.

So let me understand this, some of you are saying you write and revise at the same time? You don't go back and search for better words or make your paragraphs better? Or do any form of editing?

I mean I can see going oops I didn't mean to say it that way while writing and rewriting a sentence but to fiddle around on one paragraph making just that paragraph perfect before moving onto the next to me seems a bit time consuming and jarring to the whole "creative" process. Well it's definately a different way to go about the process. I hope it continues to work for you. Personally I write extremely fast, probably because that's how my brain rolls and then I take the time to try to make it pretty.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 06 décembre 2011 - 12:14 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I have this horrible habit of writing part of something then putting it away for a while, then when I take it out to finish it I spend 90% of my time re-writing and fixing what I already wrote instead of continuing it.

[Klidi]

@ DeGregoire - during the writing, I often backtrack. If I get an idea for a better word, I change it immediately, if I decide I need to take another turn, I go back to paragraph and rewrite it. Once the story is done, there are two possibilities: either I'm really satisfied, and then I send it to my beta, or I decide it doesn't feel right, scrap it completely and start all over again. I do not go over to change just a word or two, because I know all words are fine. If the story still doesn't work, then it's something more essential, it needs quite different take on the matter, and then simple revising would not help.
Yes, it is time consuming, but I don't think it's 'jarring'. It's simply my way of 'creative' process. I can't be creative in any other way. It just doesn't work.

[Tryynity]

The best thing is Klidi you read an article that made you feel better about your style and it helped others, feel better about their style - which ultimately is a good thing.

There is no right or wrong just what works - in my humble opinion.

Great advice from both you and Sialater.

[Corker]

DreGregoire wrote...
So let me understand this, some of you are saying you write and revise at the same time? You don't go back and search for better words or make your paragraphs better? Or do any form of editing?

Yep!  Self-described hack writer and proud of it, baby!

Although it depends on what I'm doing. 

• I have short (fewer than 20 line) poems that have graduate-level research behind them and hours of wordsmithing.
• My adventure serial, I usually wrote a week or more ahead of its "official" publication, and reviewed and revised each chapter before release.
• Most of my k!meme stuff, I rattle off and hit "post" without ever looking back.  My novella-length AU "Wild Blood" is one giant first draft.  (I think it's a pretty effing good first draft, but yeah.)  Sometimes, I miss a mis-spelling, or a word reuse, but... *shrug*  I do not have the inclination to give it a srsbzns treatment.  The price of that is the occasional typo.

I have different personal goals for each of those things.  To me, they're worth different amounts of my time and energy.  I allocate accordingly.  This maximizes my enjoyment of the hobby.  Nothing kills fun faster than slaving over "shoulds" instead of 'wants." 

I am also personally at a place where I'm pretty happy to practice at my current skill level.  Of course I could improve; I could easily name four major weaknesses in what I write that I could be working on.  But... not while juggling the rest of my life right now, thanks.  Right now, I'm having fun playing with words.  When I want to start the serious self-improvment stuff, I will.

(If it needs to be said: that's all personal and relevant only to me.  I set my own goals, to suit my own life, and they are in no way a statement on the virtue of your goals which are hopefully well-suited to your life.)

[DreGregoire]

Well yeah being a hack writer can be fun.

I'm not saying I personally need to spend much time revising mostly it's spelling or entire missing words or even parts of sentences missing. My fingers have a hard time keeping up with my brain, so things like that happen, but I don't sit there scowling at and reworking a paragraph until it's perfect; not for fanfiction anyways. Of course, more than likely my standard may be set lower than other peoples, so... to each his own brand of whatever you want to call it. I call my brand one peanut short of a snickers bar. *winks* Which can sound a bit kinky if I'm writing about certain characters' exploits. *looks innocent for half a second before eatting the entire snickers bar.*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[tklivory]

I'm a mixture of writing styles. For short stuff (like, say, less than 20K) I write it all with Conception/Execution/Revision all at once.

For longer stuff, I do a short outline, write the chapters and/or scenes that stick out in my mind the most, then start writing from the beginning. I frequently skip back and forth on the really long stuff, knowing I will go back and do it again when i reach it linearly, but I can get really non-linear. I'm running into trouble with publishing my Arlathan-saga "Rise of the Wolf' on FF.net for this reason, as I wrote the last chapter instead of the *next* chapter this week, which of course I can't post online yet!

*sigh*

And I already have my Cauthrien & Tabris pre-Landsmeet confrontation written for my Blight fic, of which I haven't even completed the first chapter! *oy*

Modifié par tklivory, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[Tryynity]

I'm a mix of all things too - it depends on my mood swing for that day LOL

However all my FanFiction is simply an excercise I developed for myself for something.

-My LotRO was a "Post-a-day" challenge.
-My DAO Blight Fic is the only one I have Betad - this is my "learn better techinques/skills" hopefully it is also my "continue until completion" excercise LOL I have a habit of not finishing projects.
-My Character Fics are just about "character development" but Taryn is specifically about writing SMUT effectively without blushing hehehe
-Weekly Prompts are an excercise in "write something down and go with it"

Fanfiction site is a really good measuring tool for me to discover what is working.

Taryn goes off the charts *grynz* where my others are average to very little.
Anieran I think will do better if I list him with a partner (except he wont really have one) - right now you can only find him if you search Surana.

[tklivory]

Well, if my numbers are any indication, people LOVE to laugh. My 'Once Upon a Time' and 'Further Adventures of Dailana Cousland' series are by far and away my most popular on FF.net, with a lot of repeat visitors. I swear, I'm going to have to play DA2 just so I can continue the series with teh DA2 characters (although 'Once Upon a Time' Fenris *would* be a challenge... Hmmmmm...)

Oh, and the 'one' story with 'kiss' in the description - off the charts as well.

So, smut and laughter: what people really want, I guess...

Modifié par tklivory, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[thesnowtigress]

Hey there, just going to sneak in and share my writing process.

1. Think a lot.

2. Have a pen and paper handy in case I think of something good.

3. Actually write something.

4. Doesn’t matter if it’s not in chronological order, I get back to certain parts later. I only wrote chronologically once as a challenge to myself. It turned out okay I guess. If the scene is there, when inspiration strikes, be it in the shower, in bed, on the train, anywhere (okay, maybe not in the car, you don’t want to cause an accident by writing something down while driving, or tapping it into your iPhone, whatever lol) you have to write it down, right?

5. Even so, my story changes, evolves a lot as I go along.

6. Then I have to go back and edit it all so it is consistent and makes sense.

7. My own personal rule: only post something once it is finished – which is mostly because I don’t usually write chronologically. And because I like to be completely happy with it before I share it with everyone.

8. I have notebooks filled with ideas. Eventually, to put them all together, I have to create a loose outline, which usually ends up always being changed.

9. I’ll have days when I can write like crazy and others when nothing at all appears before me. That’s when I pause to think some more. Eventually, something will get me writing again.

10. Connect the bones and flesh out the skeletons (you know, all those ideas and scenes you have lying around).

11. Also, it’s a good idea to do a little research, so you don’t end up screwing up big time on lore or even something as simple as the effects of poison. There’s only so much you can bullcrap your way through.

Anyway, hope this makes sense. I’m a little tired. And I’m not a pro, just someone who loves to write.


EDIT: format, it was making my eyes hurt, sorry if it did that to anyone else, lol.

Modifié par thesnowtigress, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[tklivory]

@ thesnowtigress - wait, in the shower?  Now *that's* dedication! I salute you!

And there's nothing wrong with being 'just' someone who loves to write.  We all do!  Welcome to the thread!  I hope you don't sneak out as desultorily as you snuck in and stick around a while!

Modifié par tklivory, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Tryynity]

Some of my best scenes come when Im driving my car - I get to my destination and I cannot remember the journey at all LOL I know scary right.

Luckily where I live I just have to dodge the odd kangaroo or stray cow ahahaha

[DreGregoire]

Tryynity wrote...

Some of my best scenes come when Im driving my car - I get to my destination and I cannot remember the journey at all LOL I know scary right.

Yup driving is a great place to think up scenes. Okay I admit if you see my mouth opening and closing in a car, when I'm by self it's not because I am singing, but because I'm play acting out a scene. LMAO!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:30 .

[Tryynity]

LOL I alwasy console myself if I do that in traffic I was talking on a handfree Mobile - even though I dont own one hahaha

- and yes I used to rehearse lines and songs in the car all the time in the days I performed... so I was busted alot

Modifié par Tryynity, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[tklivory]

Heh - I enjoy doing dialogue in the car (alone, of course!) It's a great way to try things out to see if they feel natural, with the bonus of, while you are saying the dialogue, you have a subconscious link to the character because you are *saying* it, not just *writing* it.

And yup, bluetooth. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

[Klidi]

So, my weekly post - I said my day will be Monday... but I completely forgot to post the story yesterday.

When Wardens Go Marching In

This story is intentionaly and deliberately written as pure dialogue and nothing else but dialoge. No dialogue tags. No narration. No identifiers. Only dialogue lines. You have been warned. Read at your own risk.

It's a result of my own, private challenge. Provoked by a nasty PM at FFN about one of my stories. In that story, Zevran suddenly refuses to have sex. He and Airam then have a talk about it. That's it. Nothing else is going on - they have a talk. Of course, there is some narration, dialogue tags, etc, but the main focus of the story is on the talk.

The PM warned me that there's too much dialogue in it, almost like a chatspeak only it's not a chatspeak just a lot of dialogue, see. I didn't and I still don't.  

But it made me think about how would the story that would really be only dialogue look like - and this was the result.

[Corker]

@Driving, I purchased a voice recorder, a headset, and a copy of Dragon Naturally Speaking with the grand plan of dictating stories while I drove.

Perhaps I only needed more practice, but... it did not work out so well. The voice recognition software was getting maybe 60-70% of what I was saying, leaving me to puzzle out what "stepped blue waffle" was supposed to be, originally. Speaking all the punctuation was doable but not natural ("Capital oh capital Merrill comma capital Isabela sighed period. When will you ever learn question mark.")

Mostly, though, the composition process felt more stilted and less natural. I often feel, when I'm typing, that I'm just writing down what I'm thinking - but 1. no, not really, and 2. the rhythms are different. Maybe that would have gotten better with practice? I don't know, but I thought the resulting stories weren't coming out as good, and I didn't want to spend more time on it.

Maybe if I used the Dragon software at home to train it better...

[Sialater]

Klidi wrote...

So, my weekly post - I said my day will be Monday... but I completely forgot to post the story yesterday.

When Wardens Go Marching In

This story is intentionaly and deliberately written as pure dialogue and nothing else but dialoge. No dialogue tags. No narration. No identifiers. Only dialogue lines. You have been warned. Read at your own risk.

It's a result of my own, private challenge. Provoked by a nasty PM at FFN about one of my stories. In that story, Zevran suddenly refuses to have sex. He and Airam then have a talk about it. That's it. Nothing else is going on - they have a talk. Of course, there is some narration, dialogue tags, etc, but the main focus of the story is on the talk.

The PM warned me that there's too much dialogue in it, almost like a chatspeak only it's not a chatspeak just a lot of dialogue, see. I didn't and I still don't.  

But it made me think about how would the story that would really be only dialogue look like - and this was the result.

Wait... what?  Someone complained about too much dialogue?  I...er...uh... huhn?


And sorry about yesteday.  I should never attempt to discuss anything so soon after being sick.  Usually, I'm fairly good about not breaking that rule, but well...

But... too much dialog?  Really? 

[Corker]

Since I just signed up at FF.net, I just read their posting policies. One of the things that's not allowed are chat logs or stories that are entirely dialogue. Possibly, the PM sender was attempting to warn about this?

[thesnowtigress]

tklivory wrote...

@ thesnowtigress - wait, in the shower?  Now *that's* dedication! I salute you!

And there's nothing wrong with being 'just' someone who loves to write.  We all do!  Welcome to the thread!  I hope you don't sneak out as desultorily as you snuck in and stick around a while!

Ideas in the shower don't come often. It happened maybe once, then I got late to leaving the house because I had to write it down. Then I ended up speeding to make the train lol. As for talking out scenes in my car, lol, I never do that. I cannot multitask when I drive, I can't even look at the scenery because I will begin to veer off the road... lol.

I'll stick around, as long as I have something to say.