973 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Corker wrote...

Isn't a good chunk of HP Lovecraft's horror predicated on the idea that there are certain cosmic truths our minds cannot imagine or comprehend? That, when we're faced with them anyway, drive us to madness?

(I mean, you can disagree that such things exist. Just sayin', Maria13 isn't the only one to suggest that our imaginative capability is bounded.)

All human brains share a great number of structural and chemical characteristics, as well as the same sensory apparatus to perceive the world.  I don't see how we can reject the hypothesis that a species with a different kind of brain altogether might be able to imagine things that we can't.

And as far as desire goes, while we might be able to conceive of almost anything as infinitely desirable, in practice, I think most human desires are fairly mundane. Consider fiction for example.  In theory, there's an infinite number of ways that sentences could be put together in order to make a story, yet in practice, the stories human beings write tend to follow a rather small number of identifiable patterns.

[Firky]

Thanks so much for the considered discussion. There's heaps in there. Have been reading it all so I can ruminate during the day. I'll get back with a response in a few hours. But wanted you to know - thanks.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Firky wrote...
1. Why are (according to wiki and codex) desire demons "ambitious" do you reckon?

I agree with Corker on this one; it feels meta.

If you wanted an in character reason though, maybe it's simply due to their supposed intelligence in the hierarchy of demons. Rage and Hunger are kinda primal emotions driven by instinct rather than intellect. Sloth...that's more a trap or lure than a drive, but Torpor in DA2 showed sloth demons can have ambition. Pride can be taken as practically synonymous with ambition.

If you take Desire as Covetousness (Want without Need), there has to be a reason behind it that transcends mere instinct. There has to be an element of intellect, why the object of desire is covetted, and an ambition to possess it.

Personally, I think they're just labelled as ambitious because they're more active in seeking out mages than the lower tier demons, and more common (apparently) than pride demons. It's the Codex author's perspective, and not necessarily accurate.

2. Beyond feeding on your desire, what could a desire demon possibly want itsself?

There's the Kitty case Corker cited, from Stone Prisoner.

Connor's demon wanted to possess Connor (she specifically wants to keep the boy and bargains for him).

The Broken Circle demon claims to want to experience life through mortal eyes, and that case is unusual because she does not appear to be directly possessing anyone. According to lore (IIRC), demons who leave the Fade but don't get a host go nuts after a while.

Feynriel's demon(s) in DA2 wants Feynriel as a host due to him being particularly powerful, powerfl enough to intimidate other demons, shape the Fade and influence the world.

Codex lore states that all demons want what mortals have and that they're jealous of 'life'. that they crave it. Justice in Awakening appears to corroborate this by adding that spirits, in contrast to demons, are meant to have no desire for such things.

There are a few Codex entries about what demons go on to do when they've possessed someone. Take the Baroness in Awakening, or this guy from DA: Legends:

The former Viscount Khedra spent most of his life as a venerated ruler, celebrated for his wisdom. Late in life, he started to change, beginning with the construction of a great coliseum where nobles' chosen champions competed for pride and glory. What began as games of entertainment quickly devolved into great spectacles of carnage punctuated by outlandish pageantry. The lesser nobles of Kaiten no longer settled their disputes in court, instead grievances big and small were decided by sword for the pleasure of an increasingly bloodthirsty populace.

The Viscount's nephew, Ravi, and his allies discovered the source of Khedra's odd behavior: Khedra was possessed by a powerful Pride demon and was now an abomination.

Perhaps a desire demon would do something on a thematically appropriate level, if it got into a position to rule an entire city (debauchery, excess etc). Perhaps desire demons want different things...

3. Within the structure of Origins-style player dialogue, how could the demon extract some of what the player desires?

Previous dialogue with other characters that ask specific questions of the PC. You could code the dialogue to add 'points' to specific categories whenever a question is answered to determine what the PC wants most, so when the demons arrives it can automagically know what the PC desires by taking the highest score. Not perfect, but an option.

You could also attempt to base what they want upon their Origin, which is what I wished the Lost in Dreams quest did right at the start. (Weisshaupt, Mr Sloth Demon? [/i]Really?[/i]) It runs the risk of being dead wrong though. One Cousland might be ecstatic at seeing Mum alive and well, another might go "WTFMate?"

Or, I guess, how can the player be set up to really want something?

Heh, you made me remember a short video from a while back where a master of mental manipulation talks to a guy for about five - ten minutes and makes him believe he doesn't want a new bike, he really wants a red car. It was fascinating. All he does is talk, make a bit of friendly body contact, and then at the end the 'victim', when asks what he wants, says he wants a red car with the kind of inflection that suggests he wanted that all along and hasn't had his mind changed. I wish I still had the link.

For the game though, if it's a specific thing we're talking about, you might have to set up a specific situation the thing would be useful for. For instance, curing Arl Eamon. Connor is tempted with a 'cure', and it works. The lonely daughter in Stone Prisoner is tempted by Kitty with attention from a loved one. Sebastian's scheming aunt(?) is tempted with political power.

If a mod was set up along a specific theme that built up a certain desire, promising to answer this 'want' could be quite effective. If it's out of the blue, it's a bit harder as desires can be a lot more varied, which is probably why demons in the games promise the PC mere material and stat-based rewards, nothing that's really heartfelt.

(On 3 - it is a murder mystery, so the player "should" want to solve it, and they should want to solve it for the benefit of saving a friend, ultimately. But, with players being diverse as they are, how could these goals be well illustrated, I wonder.)

The stakes would have to be high, I think, if you wanted to suck in the highest number of players. Why would the PC want to solve this more than riches or power? Is the friend facing death for his supposed crime? Torture? Many people will respond if they know someone is in pain and they can end the suffering...others will respond if rescuing the friend will lead to a reward.

In DA2 (Night Terrors) and DA:O (Lost in Dreams) both, the demons snare Feynriel and the Warden's companions with visible illusions and pretend futures, so maybe the PC could be manipulated with something similar. The demon need not be visible when providing the temptation, at least not initially. You could play out a fake rescue scene, saving the friend from a terrible fate to prey upon those who desire to 'save', and having great reward + praise to prey upon those who desire recognition and reward.

[Firky]

OK. Thanks for demon ideas.

@Corker
Yeah. At first I thought that desire demons were - creatures who wanted stuff themselves. (And I do recall that lazy sloth demon you mentioned.) But I now think desire demons feed from desire. So, I was thinking - "people" who like being desired, or vicariously living through other people achieving their desires, what are their characteristics? I'm not entirely sure. Low self esteem? Power? Could a demon be those things? I definitely like the curiosity angle. Like, being curious about the mortal realm. That makes complete sense. And this demon is an actor, so being an actor might lend it a "professional" curiosity, I guess. I was also thinking about the fact that the demon may have caused a thousand people to love, but never experienced love itsself ....

For what the player might want. It can't really be gameplay based. The mini mod is more influenced by the visual novel, where you essentially solve the *entire* mod through dialogue. The demon isn't trying to possess the PC. It's trying to take images from her mind (she's a sleeping Templar) and feed from them. (While the Templar is sleeping, her subconscious is preoccupied with a problem.)

This is another issue I'm not entirely sure is lore accurate enough. I recall in Asunder, Templar Lady (why have I already forgotten her name?) saying that the Fade looked familiar. Rhys ? said people go there to dream, without really realising they are even there. She's dreaming and 5 demons are performing a play for her, while feeding off her emotions, and helping her untangle a mystery in her mind. (Does that make sense? It hopefully doesn't come across as that complex.)

@Lots of people
I *really* like the idea that there might be desires in the mortal realm that the desire demon is mistaken about - or can't even imagine, or can imagine that are totally of the wall. Or a memory of someone with a really complex desire that it has never been able to recreate.

@SoL
"Want without need" is a good point, for my PC especially. I think I need to reflect on exactly what the difference is.

"You could code the dialogue to add 'points' to specific categories
whenever a question is answered to determine what the PC wants most, so
when the demons arrives it can automagically know what the PC desires by
taking the highest score. Not perfect, but an option. :)" I had actually been trying this by setting actions/conditions to a range of yes/no answers to questions. I had real trouble asking the right questions, that would get an accurate enough representation of someone's values. But it's a great idea. One I'm not sure I could pull off ...

Hmm. Also on player. "Many people will respond if they know someone is in pain and they can
end the suffering...others will respond if rescuing the friend will lead
to a reward." I've set it up so that it's a Templar who is administering the Rite of Tranquility to a mage the following day, but she is not convinced he is a blood mage, although he appears to be performing blood magic. I was relying on the player's curiosity as they wade through her subconscious in the form of this play. But I don't think it's enough. Perhaps I need to get the demon performers to make audience members Tranquil one by one or somesuch. As a reminder of the overarching aim, and a ticking clock to find an answer. The reward, really, is one good ending out of eight. Which is meta, I guess. But it's a very short mod.

Pleh.

Thanks all for discussion. (I find DA demons fascinating.) PS. @SoL Currently, the title is "The Passion Play." (I assume you get the reference.)

[Tryynity]

Okay it took me a bit but I finally have my head around - Show Vs Tell.

This may be a case of "DUH!" for most of you, but in case this also helps someone else - I will share it.

I am more comfortable in the role of Director and that has been coming through in my writing.

I tell everyone, what is going on, what to think, how to act.

The Actor has the job of showing.

To show, be the actor not the director ! eh, eh, did I do gud? You are impressed, right

[Raonar]

Tryynity wrote...

Okay it took me a bit but I finally have my head around - Show Vs Tell.

This may be a case of "DUH!" for most of you, but in case this also helps someone else - I will share it.

I am more comfortable in the role of Director and that has been coming through in my writing.

I tell everyone, what is going on, what to think, how to act.

The Actor has the job of showing.

To show, be the actor not the director ! eh, eh, did I do gud? You are impressed, right

If that's true, you might be among the few people with the mindset needed to pull off second person narration.

[Tryynity]

Im not quite sure what you mean by 2nd person.

My first fanfic was journal style first-person. My blight fic is like I'm a narrator, I am guessing is 3rd person, omni view. I find both styles easy.

If Im thinking correctly I think 2nd person uses the word you - I think that would be the hardest for me, but that is because I have never tried.

Modifié par Tryynity, 30 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[Raonar]

Tryynity wrote...

Im not quite sure what you mean by 2nd person.

My first fanfic was journal style first-person. My blight fic is like I'm a narrator, I am guessing is 3rd person, omni view. I find both styles easy.

If Im thinking correctly I think 2nd person uses the word you - I think that would be the hardest for me, but that is because I have never tried.

I do mean second person as in "you." It's weird to do, and hard, but an awesome tool when you write parodies, like (though it's a webcomic and not an actual book) Homestuck (from third page onwards).

There are a few novels in second person, but 2nd person can come accross as condescending when done poorly, since you're basically telling the reader what he thinks and how he reacts, and what he does. On the flip side, you turn the character(s) into "reader-inserts" and the readers themselves feel much more involved/immersed in the action.

Modifié par Raonar, 30 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Corker]

Tryynity wrote...

I am more comfortable in the role of Director and that has been coming through in my writing.

I tell everyone, what is going on, what to think, how to act.

The Actor has the job of showing.

To show, be the actor not the director ! eh, eh, did I do gud? You are impressed, right

I think that's a great metaphor! 

[maxernst]

Tryynity wrote...

Im not quite sure what you mean by 2nd person.

My first fanfic was journal style first-person. My blight fic is like I'm a narrator, I am guessing is 3rd person, omni view. I find both styles easy.

If Im thinking correctly I think 2nd person uses the word you - I think that would be the hardest for me, but that is because I have never tried.

The best example I've encountered is Italo Calvino's If on a Winter's Night, A Traveler, which actually begins with a description of you going to the bookstore and buying the book and then going home and sitting down to read it.  The next chapter is written in the third person, but the following chapter describes you discovering a missing page in your book and going back to the bookstore to complain about it.  It's unsettling because you feel like the author is ordering you around, but since that particular work is a meditation on writing and the relationship between reader and writer, it's not just a gimmick.

[Tryynity]

Hmmm it sounds interesting, I may give it a try at some point.

[BrennaCeDria]

maxernst wrote...

Tryynity wrote...

Im not quite sure what you mean by 2nd person.

My first fanfic was journal style first-person. My blight fic is like I'm a narrator, I am guessing is 3rd person, omni view. I find both styles easy.

If Im thinking correctly I think 2nd person uses the word you - I think that would be the hardest for me, but that is because I have never tried.

The best example I've encountered is Italo Calvino's If on a Winter's Night, A Traveler, which actually begins with a description of you going to the bookstore and buying the book and then going home and sitting down to read it.  The next chapter is written in the third person, but the following chapter describes you discovering a missing page in your book and going back to the bookstore to complain about it.  It's unsettling because you feel like the author is ordering you around, but since that particular work is a meditation on writing and the relationship between reader and writer, it's not just a gimmick.

That sounds very interesting, actually. I'll have to look it up, too.

[Rinshikai]

I agree this does sound like an interesting read.

[Maria13]

On human imagination, the universe et al... Just found a great quip from JB Haldane:

"... not only is the universe queerer than we suppose, it is queerer than we can suppose..."

Modifié par Maria13, 31 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Wow, I haven't posted here in a while. Time to catch up.

thesnowtigress wrote...

-On the use of "said": I read somewhere that for the majority of a piece of writing, you should only use "said" and use other words like "whispered" and stuff only once every thousand words or something (I may not be remembering correctly). Someone also said when using fewer words that mean "said" (oh man I hope this makes sense I am tired lol), the story is smoother to read. I remember being told in high school or cegep that using a variety of words for "said" was the best thing. Maybe then it was just to build our vocabulary? I am so confused now. What do you all think of this?

I try not to overuse words so it won't sound repetitive, which means I end up using a lot of different "said" words throughout the story. I just choose whichever one is best for the tone I want the readers to imagine my characters speaking in.

Klidi wrote...

I've read so many stories where the characters never simply run, they sprint, trot, pace, race, flash, rush or storm out, if they're angry. When they're angry, they will crash, trash, throw, slam and bang things and walls.They can't look at anyone without waggling their eyebrows in sensual manner (really - just start paying attention to how many characters and how often quirk their brow). And I often suspect them of acute neurosis, because they twitch, blink, sigh, rub their noses, twist hair around their fingers or fold/unfold their arms after every single sentence.

I've noticed some of this in stories too, especially that last part, and I think one of the reasons is the writer trying to add something else for length/balance/whatever after their characters are finished speaking. I have my own way of dealing with that problem - during long dialogues, my characters often have a task to do at the same time, even if it's just a small thing that helps move the story along while they're talking for a few pages. I actually read an article about that around the time I was using this method in one of my own chapters without thinking about it.

tklivory wrote...

For some reason, this also reminds me of an interesting bit of advice I once got, and was wondering what y'all would think of it: always begin with a line of dialogue.  I don't follow this on a consistent basis, but I've seen it used by some other authors almost religiously.  Good advice?  Bad?  Meh?

I don't think advice like that will work for every situation. There are times when starting with dialogue is a great way to begin, and others where it makes more sense not to. I'm more likely to begin with dialogue when I'm starting a chapter right in the middle of the action, but for other chapters... that would mean making a character talk to themselves out loud, which isn't likely for a guy who doesn't want everyone else to know he's crazy. xD

Raonar wrote...

There are a few novels in second person, but 2nd person can come accross as condescending when done poorly, since you're basically telling the reader what he thinks and how he reacts, and what he does. On the flip side, you turn the character(s) into "reader-inserts" and the readers themselves feel much more involved/immersed in the action.

When I tried to write in second-person, it came off more like a choose your own adventure story without the choices, like the narrator was leading the reader to something and they had no control over it. I guess that idea can seem kind of haunting, but in a good way if it's done well.

maxernst wrote...

The best example I've encountered is Italo Calvino's If on a Winter's Night, A Traveler, which actually begins with a description of you going to the bookstore and buying the book and then going home and sitting down to read it.  The next chapter is written in the third person, but the following chapter describes you discovering a missing page in your book and going back to the bookstore to complain about it.  It's unsettling because you feel like the author is ordering you around, but since that particular work is a meditation on writing and the relationship between reader and writer, it's not just a gimmick.

That's a really interesting way to make the readers feel like they're the person in the story - start with something the reader's already done, and then move on to something they would probably do (complaining about getting a damaged book). I might look around for this one.

[BrennaCeDria]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

tklivory wrote...

For some reason, this also reminds me of an interesting bit of advice I once got, and was wondering what y'all would think of it: always begin with a line of dialogue.  I don't follow this on a consistent basis, but I've seen it used by some other authors almost religiously.  Good advice?  Bad?  Meh?

I don't think advice like that will work for every situation. There are times when starting with dialogue is a great way to begin, and others where it makes more sense not to. I'm more likely to begin with dialogue when I'm starting a chapter right in the middle of the action, but for other chapters... that would mean making a character talk to themselves out loud, which isn't likely for a guy who doesn't want everyone else to know he's crazy. xD

I'll admit, this often ends up my go-to when I'm having trouble transitioning into a new chapter, or worse, a new act. Sometimes things get edited later to add material before that first, jarring bit of dialogue, and sometimes that dialogue is just cleaned up a bit, but I've found it's a good way to get around that initial block either way.

[Corker]

An interesting insight on horses in fiction:

Robin D Laws wrote...
Another problem, though, is that real horses are disjunctive in most narratives. As Sarah describes, they’re fragile and headstrong animals, both of which traits have a tendency to suddenly disrupt a protagonist’s momentum. (A recent headline reinforces their fragility: the show Luck, in which that fragility was a major theme, has had to cease production after a string of horse deaths.) Well-constructed narratives don’t provide much space for accidents or distractions. If an accident leads to a crucial plot development, it suddenly becomes a contrivance. If it exists only to show that accidents happen, it’s failing the rule of fictional parsimony, which allows only for events that drive the story or in some other way relate to its overall throughline.

Hence the convention of the herbivorous bicycle.

(Diana Wynne Jones, in her "Tough Guide to Fantasyland," considered the usual properties of a Fantasyland horse and was forced to conclude it was a herbivorous bicycle.)

Complete blog post, with an interesting link to a horse owner's observations about horse behavior, here.

[tklivory]

New stuff! Late! Aaargh!!!

----

New article for discussion:
Andrew Jack Writing - WRITING FIGHTING: 12 THINGS WRITERS NEED TO KNOW - link provided by Muirin - thanks, Muirin!

List of previously discussed articles can be found here.


New sacrificial lamb concritter:
BrennaCeDria's Warden's Duty, Chapter 1 - An editable Google Doc has been created for comments here.

List of previous concritters can be found here.

Modifié par tklivory, 03 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[Corker]

Since the link du week is on combat, I'll shamelessly link to some stuff I wrote in 2001 or so about armored combat. It's aimed at tabletop RPG game masters but applies to authors, too.

I was very bad at armored combat, but I did spend a year wearing armor and swinging a rattan "sword" while carrying a heater-shaped shield. I wouldn't consider myself the final word on anything, but I still think they're some accurate words.

[tklivory]

I've done some sword training (mostly with rapier rather than foil) and some work with daggers. I've worn mainly bandas and padded 'armor' (i.e., not really armor), though with the rapiers we did wear flak jackets.

I have to admit, though, that it still kinda bugs me when Alistair/Sten/PC can run endlessly in heavy or massive armor. XD That just ain't real when I talk to the guys/gals I know who *have* fought in full armor. Granted, 'modern' people are much more wussy compared to guys who really did work out in that armor all the time, but I still don't think that when you're wearing that armor it is possible to run (or even walk) all day, in the sun, &c the way it is implied in the game.

[BrennaCeDria]

Lucky enough, I actually got a book on longsword use as a gift just before Christmas and that's been an amazing read--both instructional and fun. I wish to god that I had an opportunity to actually learn. Something that helped a bit before I had the book was the docu "Reclaiming the Blade" that I found on Netflix back in November. I really was only looking for stuff about sword-and-dagger use, which the docu doesn't go into a lot of detail on, but nearly the entire thing was about Bob Anderson, his techniques, and his influence on "good" sword fighting in modern film. It might be much less the armor and more the arms, but I'd definitely recommend it in addition to the article for this week if anyone's curious.

Modifié par BrennaCeDria, 04 avril 2012 - 10:26 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Great article. My novel has a lot of fight scenes, and it's good to see that most of what I read there is true for my own writing. The first three rules don't exactly apply, but for the rest, I was immediately thinking of scenes I wrote that fit those explanations. Number one, about most fights being over in a minute, was the one that differed most from my fight scenes. That sort of thing is true in the situation the author described (bar and street fights, mostly), but not for every situation. The story I'm writing has completely different circumstances, and some of the fight scenes can last for a few pages. I really enjoyed reading 4-12 though - in particular, the one that described combat being confusing if it's happening on a larger battlefied in all directions for someone who's not trained for that. My main character learns how to deal with this over the course of the story. He gets a good deal of character development through fight scenes.

BrennaCeDria wrote...

I'll admit, this often ends up my go-to when I'm having trouble transitioning into a new chapter, or worse, a new act. Sometimes things get edited later to add material before that first, jarring bit of dialogue, and sometimes that dialogue is just cleaned up a bit, but I've found it's a good way to get around that initial block either way.

The chapter I'm working on now actually starts this way, with a short line of dialogue. It just seemed like the best way to introduce what was going on in that scene and build up the anticipation.

[wangxiuming]

Loved the article! I've come across it before, but it was a nice refresher. Had some insights into actual combat that I hadn't considered before.

I'm going to check out Reclaiming the Blade today now too. Thanks Brenna!

I've been slacking on concritting recently, though it's for a good reason! Been working on getting a job mostly; I am happy to say I am once again employed. It'll be nice to see the bank account start going up again.

Hope everyone has an awesome week.

[thesnowtigress]

wangxiuming wrote...

Loved the article! I've come across it before, but it was a nice refresher. Had some insights into actual combat that I hadn't considered before.

I'm going to check out Reclaiming the Blade today now too. Thanks Brenna!

I've been slacking on concritting recently, though it's for a good reason! Been working on getting a job mostly; I am happy to say I am once again employed. It'll be nice to see the bank account start going up again.

Hope everyone has an awesome week.

Congratulations on the job! 

I'm in the same boat, been (finally) working full time since March, though not sure how long it will last, I was only supposed to be a temorary replacement... then they fired the person I replaced.  

As to the article, I've also read that one before, but it is a good refresher. I can't go on and on for pages on a fight anyway. Only so many ways I can come up with to describe a fight, or anything for that matter. Description is not my favorite part of writing. I think a lot of writing comes down to common sense.