973 réponses à ce sujet

[Corker]

@maxernst, I'm sure you're right; I just don't recall a darn bit of it.

Interesting that she's the character most heavily involved in the court scenes, though. I think you're on to something with the social status cues. Makes sense - it's not just description for description's sake, in that case.

[RagingCyclone]

I agree details in settings and clothing are important at least in an introduction. For the Neria story I mention several times her robes are two piece with her midriff bare. Why? Because as she becomes closer to the Connor character it helps to bridge an initial misconception for her. She likes her body and shows it off, but tells him that does not mean she sleeps around. It's a facet of her personality. After that point though I don't mention it again because it's established in the reader's mind. There's another point in that story I describe a Legion of the Dead camp in detail as Connor awakes after sustaining injuries. I mention the room is 100 yards long by 50 yards across with a few tents strewn around the perimeter and a makeshift forge to his left. Now afterwards I mention he walks to the forge. The mistake I see often made is a writer would say he walked to his left to the forge, but since I already mentioned it's to his left I feel no need to repeat it. That's an example of what I meant about too many details.

Like my earlier post when I mentioned pivoting. Most readers already know what the word pivot means, so to add all the extra detail to it, like another post mentioned before about flow, imho ruins a good action sequence. I brought the case of The Calling to point specifically because of the dragon fight. For something that in reality lasted perhaps 10 minutes took three chapters to describe. There was a sense of urgency that leads to that point, then to drag out that fight with mundane details, for me as a reader, lost that sense of urgency. The best series of books for action writing are the Jason Bourne series. They have just the right mix of details to let the reader know what is happening and yet maintain the flow of the action. The sense of urgency is alive in those sequences.

Details are crucial to a character introduction or scene setup, on this I think we all agree. However one of the worst detail loaded books I have read in recent years was John Grishom's A Painted House. The book was 500 pages, but the story itself encompassed perhaps 300 of those pages. In times of word counts in cases of a book like Grishom's I felt bogged down and lost interest because the details of the family truck given each time the family drove to the city was mundane. I knew after the first trip what the truck looked like, but I didn't the same description the next five times they went to town. Those to me were just fillers boosting the word count, but not necessary. I think a lot of modern editors and professional writers fall into this trap...having to reach a certain word count. I guess that's why I don't pay attention to word counts anymore afraid that I'll find a book with a high word count and end up having to sift through filler details to uncover the story.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 12 décembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I think what most everyone is saying here is basically: Description is good, and can be essential, when it serves a purpose. A novel I've read and --I can't say "enjoyed", but appreciated-- several times is American Psycho, which has got to rival any 19th century novel for exhaustive descriptions of clothes, accessories, hair and skin care products, etc. But there's a reason why it's there, which is to put the reader into the atmosphere and frame of mind of the protagonist, whose world --whether he likes it or not-- revolves around such things. If you can manage to pay attention to these descriptive bits throughout the novel you can see the lists of designers and articles of clothing, not to mention the menu choices everyone makes at the many many restaurants they go to-- get more and more ridiculous and surreal, adding to the sense of dreamlike disconnect from what others must experience as the "real" world.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 12 décembre 2011 - 01:01 .

[RagingCyclone]

Oh, I agree, details like you describe are part of the character's psyche...in American Psycho...narcissism. Those details there were progressing the protagonists'... I want to say devolution. And this is a case where the details are the story. In the case I brought up with A Painted House was that the details of the old truck were not essential to the overall story after the first time. If that makes sense.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Oh, absolutely. I read a DA one-shot a few months ago in which half of the text was just describing every detail of the room the Warden was given to sleep in at Redcliffe Castle. Like, every single furnishing, and the rugs and the curtains and the floorboards and everything that was sitting on top of the dresser and I'm going "Is all of this stuff going to be *used* in this scene? Or even looked at after this?" O_o Too bad, because once the actual story got going it was pretty good, but I wonder how many people just went >_> and stopped reading before they got there.

[Sialater]

I approach settings and backgrounds with a few "brush strokes" of descriptive words. Unless, the items in the room are necessary to the protagonist, or are making a point somehow... the background is just background.

Now, to tklivory's questions...

How do you like to write? Ideally, at home on my computer, no TV, but with music. But, I write fic at the office during breaks. I work on the "real" stuff at home.

What genres do you feel you do well in? Dunno yet. But, I've got novels started in fantasy, sci-fi, steampunk, romance and mystery. I've finished an urban fantasy.

What categories (romance, action/adventure, humor, horror, &c) do you prefer? Anything I get an idea for. I usually bend genres, though.

Have you ever sat down to write something as a pure exercise and discovered that you were actually pretty good at it? Angst and Unresolved Sexual Tension.

[Tryynity]

Id like to throw another question out there.

What genre do you find the most difficult to write well?

Me - I think comedy and action.

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Oh, absolutely. I read a DA one-shot a few months ago in which half of the text was just describing every detail of the room the Warden was given to sleep in at Redcliffe Castle. Like, every single furnishing, and the rugs and the curtains and the floorboards and everything that was sitting on top of the dresser and I'm going "Is all of this stuff going to be *used* in this scene? Or even looked at after this?" O_o Too bad, because once the actual story got going it was pretty good, but I wonder how many people just went >_> and stopped reading before they got there.

I think One-shots are the worst - because often I know I feel like I have to fill in so much backstory - I most likely would tend to go overboard.

I know my recent prompt entry had an Orzammar bit inserted that was supposed to go somewhere but didnt because would have to go over time limit, so that particular one-shot would have been way more wordy, and it most likely is unnecessary, because it stands well without it. (I think)

Modifié par Tryynity, 13 décembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[RagingCyclone]

For me it would probably be horror. I just have a tough time getting that "gotcha" moment to click.

[Tryynity]

To tell the truth I have not tried horror in the real sense - I dont think you can count my mage sleeping with DAO Flemeth - though in his defence she had shapechanged into Morrigan (sneaky witch thief that she is )


Maybe that was comedy and I didnt know it *shrugs*

Modifié par Tryynity, 13 décembre 2011 - 03:46 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I haven't tried horror in the real sense, though some of my stories have had slightly eerie/supernatural tinges to them --as do bits of my DA:O fic, which makes sense as DA:O is not without its eerie/gruesome/horrific elements. But I've never tried a full-on, "the whole point of this story is to scare the pants off the reader" horror story. I'm not sure I could sustain something like that over a whole novel.

I've also only released one bit of semi-smut to the world, so far. Smut/erotica/romance is harder to write well than you'd think, IMO, considering how much of it is out there, fanfic or otherwise. But it's so easy to tip off the beam into the realm either of the tedious or the unintentionally hilarious; and the terminology! Do you go for the clinical, the euphemistic, the flowery, the abstract, what? And once you've decided what you feel comfortable calling the relevant naughty bits, how do you introduce variety into the mix without completely losing touch with reality? Some people manage it gracefully, and with some regularity. I, at the moment, am a big chicken.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 13 décembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Tryynity]

With smut I hate clinical words - always have - dont want the scene to sound like a BIO ed class in science. LOL

Depending on the situation I like to use swear words as replacements - if its not a tender moment.

Tender is harder - I did alot of research on words and found the ones that didnt make me giggle overmuch and I feel most comfortable using. Female parts are the ones I have the most problem with LOL but that might be because I am a girl and nice words seem silly - I would rather say the swear word personally.

The worst part originally for me was writing down the stuff and putting it out there - I felt uncomfortable revealing to people my imaginations of that type

I did it anonymously until I got over it - I likened it to putting a bag on my head while taking off my clothes for the first time - if people dont really know you what does it matter?

Modifié par Tryynity, 13 décembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Penarddun]

Edited: for formatting.

tklivory wrote...
I think one of my favorite authors for
really making you think about the most important things - identity,
love, hate, the future, the past, old things long gone - is Patricia McKilip. I absolutely adore her books, and I've never come away from one of her books with anything less than awe. I would hold her up as one of the *truest* to human nature authors I've read, and quite often she does it through contrast so subtle one doesn't even notice it until suddenly it hits you in the gut. Highly recommended.

I just had to second this! She is among my favorite authors. I read one of her books ten years ago and spent the last decade reading the rest, up until her latest release. I always read her reviews, and the only critique I have noticed she gets with any regularity is that her writing is very poetic and can confuse the reader. Personally, I never thought this to be the case. For me it only added a mysterious quality to her worlds. But I'm curious if that might be something to avoid when writing, especially for authors not as experienced?


Anyway...  I'm so glad I found this thread. I'm soaking up everyone's advice like a sponge. I've been writing on and off since I was 5 or 6. World building always came the easiest to me. So I have 4 or 5 different worlds I've created over the years and a few major plots that I have written and rewritten over a dozen times. But I was never truly satisfied with any of them. I "think" it's because I didn't feel my characters were believeable... at all. I've never written fan fiction before, but I'm hoping to use DA:O as a way to exercise my writing skills when it comes to developing characters.

Do you think that might be a good way to practice capturing a character's voice? Also, I'm not sure if anyone has had this experience, but my writing sounds better to me when I write it by hand. Whenever I type any of my ideas I get constant writer's block. Which can be difficult, because my brain keeps going after my hand can't write anymore. Very frustrating. But then if I type instead I barely get a page out without deleting the whole thing because I don't like it.

Modifié par Penarddun, 13 décembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[Tryynity]

@ Penarddun Im glad you found us - this thread has been created for people such as yourself - so please feel welcome

I prefer typing because I dont have to think to do it - trained speed typist. My brain often spits thoughts out faster than I can type, so writing for me is too cumbersome, plus it hurts my hand

Yes - fanfict can help you develop your characters - my random fics are just that. I prefer making up characters and plots and Im too lazy to make my world up - why when I can borrow other perfectly good ones.

I love DragonAge world and the characters that inhabit it - my game has ended but I want to continue with them - so I do - I just have to do the work rather than BIOWARE.

Hopefully other people who cannot write and want to stay with the characters they met - find they can do that via fan fiction.

Why I try really hard to duplicate the characters as much as I can to their original design/creation by their respective authors.

For example - it would be a huge error for Peter Jackson to take Tolkien's characters and change what he didnt like - there are often differences in interpretations

I hate any movie that the Director changes the characters in it.  TBH I rarely enjoy a movie if i have read the book first.  Probably because what I saw when I read - differs to the Director.

Modifié par Tryynity, 13 décembre 2011 - 04:57 .

[RagingCyclone]

Penarddun--I used to be the same way...pencil and paper. I think it was because I was a slow typer. These days I can actually type faster than I can write so typing works best for me now.

[Penarddun]

Tryynity wrote...
@ Penarddun Im glad you found us - this thread has been created for people such as yourself - so please feel welcome

Thanks Tryynity.

There are a few films I've avoided because of fear of them going so far against a book I love. I was very happy with the way Jackson filmed Lord of the Rings, and the actors who were chosen. BUT still to this day, my father runs from the room if a trailer for it comes on the tele. It's quite the sight!

@Rage - That just brought something to mind. I can type so much faster than I can write too, but it's also so much easier to go back and edit everything I don't like. And that editing definitely bogs me down. With writing by hand, many times it's such a hassle to erase or cross out that I keep going along with my train of thought instead.

Modifié par Penarddun, 13 décembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Klidi]

Hello, Penardun! *waves*
I prefer typing, because I so often go back to the previous word or sentence and change it or rewrite it - I'd fill in the notebook before the chapter was done and then it would be such a mess it would be difficult to sort it out.
But I have one story I work on when I'm travelling in the train, etc. I tried to transfer it into the PC - and I immediately got blocked. I think my brain is set up already to write this one on paper and nothing will change that until it's done, lol. Which means it will be done in a year or two.

What's difficult to write... smut. I tried for a few times, but... I think it's better to just 'fade to black' for me. And fighting scenes. I totally suck at that.

[Corker]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I've also only released one bit of semi-smut to the world, so far. Smut/erotica/romance is harder to write well than you'd think, IMO, considering how much of it is out there, fanfic or otherwise. But it's so easy to tip off the beam into the realm either of the tedious or the unintentionally hilarious; and the terminology! Do you go for the clinical, the euphemistic, the flowery, the abstract, what?

Oh, I feel your pain.  XD  And I agree with Tryynity, the female bits are the worst, because while there are tons of euphemisms for the male bits, the female ones tend to either be clinical or coarse.  There are some dodges where you linguistically handwave a little, e.g., "into her" and assume the reader will understand that we're not talking dagger thrusts through the abdomen.

As a default, I've settled on a fairly small number of words that seem neutral to me - not formal clinical names, but not something that reads as insulting, either.  But I will switch it up based on the characters involved.  "Spectacles" Surana would absolutely call every body part by its proper polysyllabic name; my Tabris is coarse and can use coarse words.

And once you've decided what you feel comfortable calling the relevant naughty bits, how do you introduce variety into the mix without completely losing touch with reality?

Mostly, I don't.  (I was laughing at myself the other night, actually, as I was popping my little stock phrases in and out of sentences like a mix-n-match kid's toy.)  I mean, how many words do I need for "arm"?  If I find I'm repeating too often, I'll try and rephrase the sentence to see if I can't remove the need to specifically call out the body part *again.*

Some of the best advice I got, when I was stressing over a very vanilla scene* in an early k!meme fill, was *not* to focus so much on Tab A and Slot B, but rather on what the characters were feeling, emotionally.  You don't want to neglect the physical entirely, but paying at least as much attention to reactions as actions helps give the story a modicum of depth and spaces out your need to deploy pulsing, throbbing euphemisms.

*Because man, I think vanilla is hard.  "And then they did it."  When I'm writing for a kink, there's usually a bunch of props lying around waiting to be written into the action, and appropriate dialogue to go with them.  That takes up 1500 words, easy, and then it's just a paragraph or two to, ah, finish up.  I've done a good vanilla scene or two, I think, but they tend to be a couple of paragraphs, not a couple of pages.  YMMV; I'm sure there's folks for whom it's the other way around.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Corker wrote...
Oh, I feel your pain.  XD  And I agree with Tryynity, the female bits are the worst, because while there are tons of euphemisms for the male bits, the female ones tend to either be clinical or coarse.  There are some dodges where you linguistically handwave a little, e.g., "into her" and assume the reader will understand that we're not talking dagger thrusts through the abdomen.

As a default, I've settled on a fairly small number of words that seem neutral to me - not formal clinical names, but not something that reads as insulting, either.  But I will switch it up based on the characters involved.  "Spectacles" Surana would absolutely call every body part by its proper polysyllabic name; my Tabris is coarse and can use coarse words.

I get turned off by hardcore pornographic words in smut; not because I don't approve of or use them in real life --I do, but that's just it: I use them as curse words. To see them in the midst of a section of prose, especially prose that is pretending to be anything other than pornography, always jars me. But I can see what you mean in the context of a Tabris or a Brosca who maybe doesn't know or think of any other words. On the other hand, I get equally turned off by overly flowery or euphemistic words --or at least, I'm too busy laughing to enjoy the scene properly.

And once you've decided what you feel comfortable calling the relevant naughty bits, how do you introduce variety into the mix without completely losing touch with reality?

Mostly, I don't.  (I was laughing at myself the other night, actually, as I was popping my little stock phrases in and out of sentences like a mix-n-match kid's toy.)  I mean, how many words do I need for "arm"?  If I find I'm repeating too often, I'll try and rephrase the sentence to see if I can't remove the need to specifically call out the body part *again.*

I always feel a little sorry for the people writing same-sex scenes, for this reason --and doubly impressed when those scenes are written well. Not only do you have to worry about overusing the terms for one set of bits, but both participants have the same bits! O_o

Some of the best advice I got, when I was stressing over a very vanilla scene* in an early k!meme fill, was *not* to focus so much on Tab A and Slot B, but rather on what the characters were feeling, emotionally.  You don't want to neglect the physical entirely, but paying at least as much attention to reactions as actions helps give the story a modicum of depth and spaces out your need to deploy pulsing, throbbing euphemisms.

Yeah, that's the way I think I'm tending. My one published bit of vanilla went that way --it was a solo act, anyway, so naturally a lot of it happened in the character's head-- and the bits I have planned/sketched out/outlined are all heading in that direction. Physical reaction doesn't always have to be about Tab A into Slot B, either --I mean, if you're reading the scene, and a particular act is indicated, you can pretty much assume that Tab A is going to continue going into Slot B until the author says otherwise-- but there are other physical sensations that the various acts engender that can be focused on. I guess I'm dwelling on smut-writing anxiety a little more than usual these days because a couple of the readers of my DA:O fic have started to express some --impatience, insistence, what have you-- that it is high time for some smut. They won't get any for a while yet, but all the more reason for me to really want to make it good when it finally happens.

[Sialater]

Corker wrote...
pulsing, throbbing euphemisms.

  Love that.

I don't do comedy very well.  I'm good at UST, but not necessarily a full on sex scene.

[Tryynity]

Yes Vanilla is harder - I opt for Fade to Black if I can. I read an article when I was researching how to write romance/sex scenes. The author suggested you dont really have to say too much, because people automatically are thinking about 'down below' so you dont have to point it out to the reader.

I guess he was referring to a vanilla scene because I think the harder stuff, the reader wants the description of what is happening.

I am wondering if it is safe to post the words we detest ? LOL

[tklivory]

Have you ever played Smut Mad Libs? A friend of mine found a book of it online, and we had a gigglefest playing it.

He placed his (body part) on her (body part) and (suggestive verb) it with (adjective), pausing only to ready the (noun)

It was absolutely hysterical at the end.


As for the 'degree' of smut to write, it very much depends on the target audience.  Some audiences prefer more detail in general (thus the existence of kmeme), while others prefer just the buildup and don't need the... um... end result.  *yeah, that's the ticket*

Modifié par tklivory, 13 décembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[maxernst]

Apropos to the discussion of the trials of trying to write sex scenes:

http://www.guardian....n-fiction-prize

I just avoid writing explicit scenes.

@tlkivory - I love word substitution games. I've been known to play them by myself, for example, by substituting vocabulary from one work into another, resulting in poems with passages like:

While window panes linger in drains of Mrs. N. and Professor D....
The evening shadows do not care, after evening
If sometimes in their soot of ladies sudden and hard
The night curls about like a house of smoky backs

[Sushifer]

Typical- I fall out of the habit of checking the community creations thread for the first time in ages and an awesome thread like this pops up in my absence! Hullo, all- I've come to join the party, if I may

I might put myself forward for the post-a-week thing, later. For the moment my own personal goals are working nicely. I've been managing to write a page or more of my Blight-fic nearly every day for a good few weeks now. Because I am a luddite when it comes to first drafts, that's on narrow ruled paper in my small writing, so works out to 600-ish words for one side, which is a nice steady output, for me. I'm up to 30 pages now... so I'd say about 17000 words? And I'm still only at Flemeth's post-Ostagar! Stuff will need to be cut, I think.

Anyway, I plan to start getting it typed up and revised soonish, with the aim of getting the first chapter up on the internet by the new year. Mind you, I do actually have the first chapter typed already- but I think I want to establish a buffer of ready- to-publish chapters before I release it into the wild.

I'm really quite terrified, actually- this thing has been brewing for half a year now, and I'm still having doubts about writing it. Sitting on big projects for too long seems bound to end in angst- I suspect it'd be better to chuck it out there sooner rather than later. Luckily I have a sort-of-beta to bounce my worries off to test their authenticity (hi, Bite!) but still. I s'pose I should just tell my inner critic to shut it and get on with it, seeing as between the worry, I'm really looking forward to finally getting this story rolling. Does anyone else get similarly nervous/doubtful about launching longform stories, or am I just an overly panicky little writer?

Modifié par Sushifer, 13 décembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sushifer wrote...

Anyway, I plan to start getting it typed up and revised soonish, with the aim of getting the first chapter up on the internet by the new year. Mind you, I do actually have the first chapter typed already- but I think I want to establish a buffer of ready- to-publish chapters before I release it into the wild.

I kind of wish I'd done that. I used to wonder how in the heck some people could publish a 5000+-word chapter every week or so (or in some cases, even more often!) until I found out that they were actually just polishing up and releasing stuff they'd already pretty much written. I'm publishing pretty much as I write and am lucky to get a chapter out once a month.

I'm really quite terrified, actually- this thing has been brewing for half a year now, and I'm still having doubts about writing it. Sitting on big projects for too long seems bound to end in angst- I suspect it'd be better to chuck it out there sooner rather than later. Luckily I have a sort-of-beta to bounce my worries off to test their authenticity (hi, Bite!) but still. I s'pose I should just tell my inner critic to shut it and get on with it, seeing as between the worry, I'm really looking forward to finally getting this story rolling. Does anyone else get similarly nervous/doubtful about launching longform stories, or am I just an overly panicky little writer?

I was very nervous before launching. I'm actually a little surprised about how good I've been in *not* rushing back 10 times a day after publication to change a word here or a punctuation mark there. I've never been good at letting go of written stuff and will *always* find something I don't like about it after it's gone out. But I do go through several drafts before publishing and also have betas to give me a good pre-release sense of perspective, which is not something I've ever had in the past. Incidentally, if by "Bite" you mean Bitenomnom, she's my sort-of beta too, and my fic!illustrator! *waves* Well, she started out as a sort-of "I'll just kind of tell you what I think and give you support and squee and that kind of thing" beta, but I've kind of elevated her to full-on beta whether she likes it or not. :happy:

But yes, publish! I think the exposure and feedback and the sense of having a *live* story out there will help you, honestly. If you sit on it, you're in danger of letting it get stale IMO. Plus now I want to read. . .

[Tryynity]

Welcome sushi san *bows*

- good to see you Sushi *waves*