51 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

 I just finished reading "The Calling", and those who have read it know that Fiona (an elf) and Maric have a child. This child is overwhelmingly intended to be Alistair, yet he is a full human. It is said in the book, and in te game, the elf's wo breed with humans have completely human offspring.

Yet in DA2, we have Feynriel, half elf and half human. According to lore he should be fully human. Have i missed something important here or has elven lore been completely retconned, now ruling out the previous certainty that Alistair was Fion and Maric's son?

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[TEWR]

Half-elven, half-human children have pointed ears and a more narrow build, but are considered human.

It's a matter of appearance.

I don't know if fully human though is appropriate given that Feynriel displays elven characteristics -- as well as Danarius, as he has pointed ears as well..

They're definitely half-human and half-elven, but I think it's just that the human blood sort of overwhelms the elven blood and they're considered to be human.

I dunno.

[Tommyspa]

Feynriel is human, but he does still have Dalish blood. It isn't a retcon, it's that when you look at Feynriel you will not mistake him for an elf in any major way. They never said halfbreeds would be completely void of elven blood from what I recall.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Half-elves LOOK completely human. Nobody ever said they ARE completely human. Having an elven parent still matters. Under the current laws of Ferelden (all of Thedas?) half-elf children can't inherit noble titles, if I remember rightly.

And it's not clear AT ALL that Fiona's son is meant to be Alistair. I don't know if you people remember, but Origins offers an entirely different story for his parentage that is at least equally likely, epsecially given that the game and the novel don't match up time-wise.

Seems to me that Maric was just a big man****. You probably can't swing a dead mabari without hitting an heir to the Ferelden throne.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Realmzmaster]

Would it be genetically possible? It would require that the elven woman or man to have human recessive traits which always appear when mated with a human man or woman to have a fully human child. In a half human/half elven child the dominant trait would have to be human for it to look like Feynriel who looks more human (ears appear more rounded) than elven. Danarius ears look more pointed pointing to a more prominent elven trait.

You pose an interesting question.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Half-elves LOOK completely human. Nobody ever said they ARE completely human. Having an elven parent still matters. Under the current laws of Ferelden (all of Thedas?) half-elf children can't inherit noble titles, if I remember rightly.

And it's not clear AT ALL that Fiona's son is meant to be Alistair. I don't know if you people remember, but Origins offers an entirely different story for his parentage that is at least equally likely, epsecially given that the game and the novel don't match up time-wise.

Seems to me that Maric was just a big man****. You probably can't swing a dead mabari without hitting an heir to the Ferelden throne.

Fiona: "That's why we stay together in the Alienages, mostly. The children of humans and elves are human. If we interbreed, we would die out"

You are wrong, my friend. They are human.

@Realmzmaster: Yes, Danarius does have pointed ears, never noticed that before. That means that, scientifically speaking, elven traits can be just as dominant as a human's. Feynriel has a slim elven build with rounded ears, while danarius has a talle human build with elven ears. This means, if DA follows the laws of heredity, that it is entirely possible to have a completely elven looking child.

Retconn indeed, and a rather dissapointing one at that. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[thats1evildude]

Feynriel is somewhat of a special case because of his status as a a somniari. His elven heritage is particularly strong.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

thats1evildude wrote...

Feynriel is somewhat of a special case because of his status as a a somniari. His elven heritage is particularly strong.

Danarius is not Somniari. This point is invalid.

[TEWR]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Feynriel is somewhat of a special case because of his status as a a somniari. His elven heritage is particularly strong.

Danarius is not Somniari. This point is invalid.

well... he might be. For all we know he was Feynriel's teacher.

But that would seem highly forced to make him both a Somniari and Feynriel's teacher, especially when he's so easily defeated.

Anyway, you're right in that being a Somniari doesn't make elven traits stronger as the Somniari date back to ancient Tevinter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Feynriel is somewhat of a special case because of his status as a a somniari. His elven heritage is particularly strong.

Danarius is not Somniari. This point is invalid.

well... he might be. For all we know he was Feynriel's teacher.

But that would seem highly forced to make him both a Somniari and Feynriel's teacher.

Anyway, being a Somniari doesn't make elven traits stronger as the Somniari date back to ancient Tevinter.

Exactly, saying that the status of somniari makes elven traits stronger is complete specualtion with no evidence to back it up. i was just making a point.

Anyway, back to the topic; disappointing, disappointing indeed.

[thats1evildude]

Honestly, I'm looking at Danarius right now and I don't see how his ears are pointed. He just has giant Jeff Goldblum ears.



Are you saying that Jeff Goldblum is a half-elf?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[TEWR]

Is it your belief that Jeff Goldblum is a half-elf?

Yes.

Thedas has a dinosaur theme park. This is now canon.



in all seriousness, those are slightly pointed ears. They have a more humanistic shape, but they're pointed where they should actually be rounded.

http://www.youtube.c...y9UmuHJBY#t=53s

[Gibb_Shepard]

That's true, he may just have pointed ears. Nevertheless, everything in this topic about somniarai and danrius's status as an elf is speculation. Going by actual eveidence, however, a retconn has taken place. It'd be nice to hear why Mr. Gaider changed this little piece of lore around.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyway, you're right in that being a Somniari doesn't make elven traits stronger as the Somniari date back to ancient Tevinter.

They also pre-dated the Tevinter Imperium. Perhaps the Tevinter somniari also gained their abilities as a result of their elven heritage.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:04 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyway, you're right in that being a Somniari doesn't make elven traits stronger as the Somniari date back to ancient Tevinter.

They pre-dated the Tevinter Imperium. It's possible that Tevinter somniari gained their abilities from mating with elves.

Don't recall that ever being mentioned.

[OMTING52601]

Fenyriel looks different than Alistair because they changed the design of elves. But even his mother calls him an elf-blooded HUMAN child. And during the visit to the Fade, Hawke(as Orsino) iterates that there's no way the Dalish would look to a human to lead them, despite what the demon wants Fenyriel to believe.

I get that Calling never explicitly states Alistair's mother is an Elf, but seriously, that kid was Al.

[Plaintiff]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Fenyriel looks different than Alistair because they changed the design of elves. But even his mother calls him an elf-blooded HUMAN child. And during the visit to the Fade, Hawke(as Orsino) iterates that there's no way the Dalish would look to a human to lead them, despite what the demon wants Fenyriel to believe.

I get that Calling never explicitly states Alistair's mother is an Elf, but seriously, that kid was Al.

Why would they offer us two entirely conflicting stories for Alistair's birth? The timeline of the novel doesn't even match up with Alistair's age.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Don't recall that ever being mentioned.

Marethari says the elves of the Dales were experts in the somniari arts and the pride demon Wryme says while posing as Marethari that Feynriel's magic is "as ancient as our race".

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:29 .

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Half-elves LOOK completely human. Nobody ever said they ARE completely human. Having an elven parent still matters. Under the current laws of Ferelden (all of Thedas?) half-elf children can't inherit noble titles, if I remember rightly.

And it's not clear AT ALL that Fiona's son is meant to be Alistair. I don't know if you people remember, but Origins offers an entirely different story for his parentage that is at least equally likely, epsecially given that the game and the novel don't match up time-wise.

Seems to me that Maric was just a big man****. You probably can't swing a dead mabari without hitting an heir to the Ferelden throne.

Fiona: "That's why we stay together in the Alienages, mostly. The children of humans and elves are human. If we interbreed, we would die out"

You are wrong, my friend. They are human.

Obviously the rest of Thedas does not see it that way, since Feynriel and all other half-elf children are still doomed by their elven parentage to live out their days in the Alienage. Half-human obviously isn't human enough.

Even if Elves and Humans are chromosomally similar enough to allow interbreeding in the first place, all children pick up traits from both parents. They may be recessive genes, or latent, but they're still there, and if that half-elf were to breed with a full-blooded elf, or another half-elf (and being stuck in the alienage, those are pretty mcuh their only options), those traits woould crop up again in their children.

The only way this could ever work is if elven egg/sperm cells were somehow blank slates, that could be completely overwritten by human DNA. And if that were true, then all elven children would be clones of their parents, and Feynriel, being half-human, would be a clone of his father. His very brown, Antivan father.

If retcon it be, then this is a good retcon, because it fixes a part of the lore that was utterly retarded to begin with.

[thats1evildude]

Plaintiff wrote...

Obviously the rest of Thedas does not see it that way, since Feynriel and all other half-elf children are still doomed by their elven parentage to live out their days in the Alienage. Half-human obviously isn't human enough.

Wait a minute. Feynriel was raised in the Alienage because that's where his mother lived. There's no indication that he couldn't have left the Alienage when he came of age.

Again, I maintain that any slight resemblance to his elven parent is a result of Feynriel's unusual status. But he was still functionally human.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:31 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Don't recall that ever being mentioned.

Marethari says the elves of the Dales were experts in the somniari arts and the pride demon Wryme says while posing as Marethari that Feynriel's magic is "as ancient as our race".

The Dales doesn't predate Tevinter. That was afterwards. Had she said the Elves of Arlathan that'd be a different story.

And Wryme's a pride demon. He could've been lying in an attempt to hopefully play on any pride Feynriel may have had for his Elven heritage.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Half-elves LOOK completely human. Nobody ever said they ARE completely human. Having an elven parent still matters. Under the current laws of Ferelden (all of Thedas?) half-elf children can't inherit noble titles, if I remember rightly.

And it's not clear AT ALL that Fiona's son is meant to be Alistair. I don't know if you people remember, but Origins offers an entirely different story for his parentage that is at least equally likely, epsecially given that the game and the novel don't match up time-wise.

Seems to me that Maric was just a big man****. You probably can't swing a dead mabari without hitting an heir to the Ferelden throne.

Fiona: "That's why we stay together in the Alienages, mostly. The children of humans and elves are human. If we interbreed, we would die out"

You are wrong, my friend. They are human.

Obviously the rest of Thedas does not see it that way, since Feynriel and all other half-elf children are still doomed by their elven parentage to live out their days in the Alienage. Half-human obviously isn't human enough.

Even if Elves and Humans are chromosomally similar enough to allow interbreeding in the first place, all children pick up traits from both parents. They may be recessive genes, or latent, but they're still there, and if that half-elf were to breed with a full-blooded elf, or another half-elf (and being stuck in the alienage, those are pretty mcuh their only options), those traits woould crop up again in their children.

The only way this could ever work is if elven egg/sperm cells were somehow blank slates, that could be completely overwritten by human DNA. And if that were true, then all elven children would be clones of their parents, and Feynriel, being half-human, would be a clone of his father. His very brown, Antivan father.

If retcon it be, then this is a good retcon, because it fixes a part of the lore that was utterly retarded to begin with.

Applying modern laws of heredity to a fantastical fictional world isn't exactly the best way to go about this. I am going by established lore.

Also, Gaider has admitted toa continuity error in the novels:

"Cailan is supposed[/i] to be five years old in "the Calling"
http://dragonage.wik...ge:_The_Calling

That would mean that Alistairs age lines up perfectly with the novels. I'm sorry buddy, but its all to much of a coincedence for it not to be true.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dales doesn't predate Tevinter. That was afterwards.

Of course. But if the somniari arts originated in Tevinter, why would the elves of the Dales practice it? And how would they learn it?  The implication here is that the elves of the Dales were recovering a lost art.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And Wryme's a pride demon. He could've been lying in an attempt to hopefully play on any pride Feynriel may have had for his Elven heritage.

On its own, the information is untrustworthy. However, it corraborates  what Marethari said.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dales doesn't predate Tevinter. That was afterwards.

Of course. But if the somniari arts originated in Tevinter, why would the elves of the Dales practice it? And how would they learn it?  The implication here is that the elves of the Dales were recovering a lost art.

It's a rare magical gift that probably manifests itself in 1 out of 10000 mages. Maybe the odds of it appearing are greater than that. Could be 1 in 25000. 1 in 38376. Who knows.

What you're saying is akin to saying -- and I'll just be making a bull**** claim to hopefully successfully make a point -- that an eidetic memory is something that was lost from the Jews because they were enslaved by the Egyptians.

...or something using Egyptians, Jews, and an eidetic memory. I dunno

Anyway, it's a genetic anomaly.

The Elves would practice it because it just makes a mage a more powerful mage. And since demons are attracted to Dreamers -- the translation of the Tevinter word Somniari -- they would need to practice it.

How would they learn it? There's evidence of humans and elves living together. While this is just speculation, it's possible some Tevinter magi weren't complete pricks to the Elves and they taught the Somniari Elves.

Or there were books on the subject. Marethari obviously had one that was written by the last Somniari within their clan.

Or maybe most Elves couldn't practice it because they got possessed. Marethari does say that most Somniari prove too frail of mind to survive a demon's possession.

On its own, the information is untrustworthy. However, it corraborates  what Marethari said.

To me it'll always be untrustworthy until more evidence comes in to support the notion that it originated in Arlathan.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[OMTING52601]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Also, Gaider has admitted toa continuity error in the novels:

"Cailan is supposed[/i] to be five years old in "the Calling"
http://dragonage.wik...ge:_The_Calling

That would mean that Alistairs age lines up perfectly with the novels. I'm sorry buddy, but its all to much of a coincedence for it not to be true.

Thank you! I was digging around for this and I couldn't find it. Sorry, Plaintiff, I meant to put this in my original post. I realize it isn't in the actual book, but being a writer myself, I can attest to the fact that what happens after an author sends in their final approved version does not mean that's the final version that goes into print. Believe me on that. Sometimes continuity errors are on the fault of the author, sometimes the setters, sometimes a last minute line edit to fix one sentence or another and part of the sentence doesn't get stuck back in, which seems to be what Gaider is implying in this instance.

ETA: As to two conflicting stories, IMO it makes sense. By that I mean it makes sense for Alistair to have a different reason for thinking his mother was a skullery maid instead of Fiona. And regardless of his origins, keeping setting and time frame in mind, there was no way in hell Maric's only other surviving offspring was going to an alienage. When Sebastien, in 2, talks about heirs and spares that's no joke. Half blooded or not, Alistair is the spare.

Modifié par OMTING52601, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:03 .