262 réponses à ce sujet

[bleetman]

And here I thought the problem was skinny elves wielding giant swords, not teleporting knights.

[hoorayforicecream]

Aaleel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. People should suspend common sense, because it isn't our world and therefore "common sense" shouldn't apply. What's common to us, may not be common to them. What *should* apply is consistency. If something behaves in one way, similar things should behave in similar ways. If I see a flying dragon and am supposed to accept that, then I should not feel weird that there are also flying griffons, flying horses, or other flying creatures. If the dragons can breathe fire, then I should not feel weird that there are other creatures that can breathe poison, or breathe lightning. If weapons can burst into flame or shoot lightning, why can they not be larger than normal, and still be wielded just as easily?

Words like "childish" and "cartoony" are opinions, but "unrealistic" isn't. Is it childish? To some, yes. To some, no. Same for "cartoony". But realism? Something's either like the real or it isn't. It isn't something subjective to decide what is and isn't realistic. If I can break the laws of physics by summoning magical fire out of nothing, then that isn't realistic. If I can violate the square-cube law, that isn't realistic. If I can wield heavy weaponry without much effort? There's actually historical precedence for this one, and yet this is what's called unrealistic.

How can you accept that the laws of physics can be acceptably broken in one way (perpetually on fire weapons), but not in another (effortlessly wielding stylized weaponry)? That's what doesn't make sense to me because it's inconsistent. Selectively enforcing physical constraints seems arbitrary and silly to me. I'd much rather they just continue to be consistent.

The world sets its own rules.  Certain races can use magic, certain races can't (Dwarves).  Bioware says that teleportation is not possible in the world.  So if a dwarf uses magic and teleports, I'm supposed to just say OK and move on because everything is inbounds regardless?  Knights appearing and falling out of thin air?  Again teleportation is impossible, where are they coming from?

As you said, the world sets its own rules. Why does that mean that oversized weaponry is unrealistic then? Or are you trying to argue a point with me that I never brought up? I'm not the one complaining about how realistic something is.

[billy the squid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

Well, we know some materials that weapons made of in DA universe exist in real world, such as iron, and these materials are considered heavy. And we also know not every single sword is enchanted. So, a common great sword made of iron in DA style would not be usable by an ordinary soldier. And this is one of the many elements that make the game unrealistic, childish and cartoony.

Childish and cartoony are pretty nebulous descriptors based on opinion. You're welcome to it. I do find it a little ridiculous that in a game with magic, dragons, dwarves and elves, that something is "unrealistic" is an actual complaint at all.

Using that line of reasoning I should be able to walk through walls, jump 30 feet in the air, shoot fire from my eyes, fly and walk on water. Stating that it is a fantasy game and therefore anything can be accomodated and as such is not unrealistic is a smoke screen, when something has become absurdly overdone simply for the idea of being flashy rather than for any tangible benefit in the context of the gameplay, lore or story in which the game is set.

[Xewaka]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
As you said, the world sets its own rules. Why does that mean that oversized weaponry is unrealistic then? Or are you trying to argue a point with me that I never brought up? I'm not the one complaining about how realistic something is.

The problem is that people misuse realism when they mean to say verisimilitude.
Also, consider this: The uncanny valley applies not only to human likeness, but to suspension of disbelief in general. It is easier to admit Dragons flying around and breathing fire in fantasy than to accept an emaciated, prancy joke of a humanoid wielding a gigantic sword with such ease. The former is much more removed from our reality than the later, thus out of the valley and easier to suspend our belief on.

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[tmp7704]

Rojahar wrote...

Does it really matter if something is realistic or not? Is "I just think this design looks bad/good." not adequate enough?

"I think this design looks bad/good because it feels unrealistic" is an attempt to elaborate on exactly what makes one feel however they feel about the subject. As such, it's better feedback than just "it's bad/good" imo. The latter just doesn't really leave anything to work with.

[Aaleel]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


As you said, the world sets its own rules. Why does that mean that oversized weaponry is unrealistic then? Or are you trying to argue a point with me that I never brought up? I'm not the one complaining about how realistic something is.

You said.

Childish and cartoony are pretty nebulous descriptors based on opinion.
You're welcome to it. I do find it a little ridiculous that in a game
with magic, dragons, dwarves and elves, that something is
"unrealistic" is an actual complaint at all.

If you're just talking about weapons specfically than my apologies, but this sounds like a general statement that people shouldn't call something unrealistic in a fantasy world.

[hoorayforicecream]

billy the squid wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

Well, we know some materials that weapons made of in DA universe exist in real world, such as iron, and these materials are considered heavy. And we also know not every single sword is enchanted. So, a common great sword made of iron in DA style would not be usable by an ordinary soldier. And this is one of the many elements that make the game unrealistic, childish and cartoony.

Childish and cartoony are pretty nebulous descriptors based on opinion. You're welcome to it. I do find it a little ridiculous that in a game with magic, dragons, dwarves and elves, that something is "unrealistic" is an actual complaint at all.

Using that line of reasoning I should be able to walk through walls, jump 30 feet in the air, shoot fire from my eyes, fly and walk on water. Stating that it is a fantasy game and therefore anything can be accomodated and as such is not unrealistic is a smoke screen, when something has become absurdly overdone simply for the idea of being flashy rather than for any tangible benefit in the context of the gameplay, lore or story in which the game is set.

If similar characters to yours have been presented as walking through walls, jumping 30 feet in the air, shooting fire from their eyes and walking on water, sure. As I said before, consistency. Not realism. 

[billy the squid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

Well, we know some materials that weapons made of in DA universe exist in real world, such as iron, and these materials are considered heavy. And we also know not every single sword is enchanted. So, a common great sword made of iron in DA style would not be usable by an ordinary soldier. And this is one of the many elements that make the game unrealistic, childish and cartoony.

Childish and cartoony are pretty nebulous descriptors based on opinion. You're welcome to it. I do find it a little ridiculous that in a game with magic, dragons, dwarves and elves, that something is "unrealistic" is an actual complaint at all.

Using that line of reasoning I should be able to walk through walls, jump 30 feet in the air, shoot fire from my eyes, fly and walk on water. Stating that it is a fantasy game and therefore anything can be accomodated and as such is not unrealistic is a smoke screen, when something has become absurdly overdone simply for the idea of being flashy rather than for any tangible benefit in the context of the gameplay, lore or story in which the game is set.

If similar characters to yours have been presented as walking through walls, jumping 30 feet in the air, shooting fire from their eyes and walking on water, sure. As I said before, consistency. Not realism. 

Yet it wasn't consistent, Meredith jumping about. On top of that the speed was not consistant, nor was the enemies spawning by jumping from roofs.

[hoorayforicecream]

Aaleel wrote...

If you're just talking about weapons specfically than my apologies, but this sounds like a general statement that people shouldn't call something unrealistic in a fantasy world.

The reason you are complaining is because the game behavior is inconsistent with the rules the developers provided (no teleportation). Not that it is unrealistic. Had the developers stated that teleportation was commonplace, then it would still be no less unrealistic (since teleportation has not become any more realistic), but it would be a lot more consistent with the rules of the world.

Edit:

billy the squid wrote...

Yet it wasn't consistent, Meredith jumping about. On top of that the speed was not consistant, nor was the enemies spawning by jumping from roofs.

If the complaint is inconsistency, then it's fine. I would totally agree. But equating consistency to realism is foolish, because it simply isn't accurate.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


If similar characters to yours have been presented as walking through walls, jumping 30 feet in the air, shooting fire from their eyes and walking on water, sure. As I said before, consistency. Not realism. 

There comes a time where the limit upon how far a person can suspend their disbelief is reached.

If there were plausible reasons for why stuff like shooting fire from the eyes could happen -- like say it's a power granted by one of the Dalish Gods or if a mage could channel magical energy to any area of the body -- then it would be a different story. But just out of the blue isn't right.
'

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...


If similar characters to yours have been presented as walking through walls, jumping 30 feet in the air, shooting fire from their eyes and walking on water, sure. As I said before, consistency. Not realism. 

There comes a time where the limit upon how far a person can suspend their disbelief is reached.

If there were plausible reasons for why stuff like shooting fire from the eyes could happen -- like say it's a power granted by one of the Dalish Gods or if a mage could channel magical energy to any area of the body -- then it would be a different story. But just out of the blue isn't right.

Yet it would still be no more realistic should it come out of the blue than if it were explained through the story. It would simply go from being inconsistent with the game's rules to being consistent with the game's rules. Funny how that works.

[Xewaka]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Yet it would still be no more realistic should it come out of the blue than if it were explained through the story. It would simply go from being inconsistent with the game's rules to being consistent with the game's rules. Funny how that works.

I repeat myself, but:
The problem is that people misuse realism when they mean to say verisimilitude.
Also, consider this: The uncanny valley applies not only to human likeness, but to suspension of disbelief in general. It is easier to admit Dragons flying around and breathing fire in fantasy than to accept an emaciated, prancy joke of a humanoid wielding a gigantic sword with such ease. The former is much more removed from our reality than the later, thus out of the valley and easier to suspend our belief on.

Modifié par Xewaka, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Aaleel]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The reason you are complaining is because the game behavior is inconsistent with the rules the developers provided (no teleportation). Not that it is unrealistic. Had the developers stated that teleportation was commonplace, then it would still be no less unrealistic (since teleportation has not become any more realistic), but it would be a lot more consistent with the rules of the world.
.

No.  You're basing your realism on the rules of this world, and I'm basing mine on the rules of the world created by the developers.  If they say people can teleport in their world, then teleportation is not unrealistic.  In ours yes, in theirs no.

Magic is realistic in their world, but if someone writes a Dragon Age story and makes a Dwarf use magic, their story is unrealistic because it's impossible for dwarves to use magicin the DA world. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[KenKenpachi]

Oh wow, the lets make a poll and close it when it has the results I want, thread! ITS CHRISTMAS ALREADY.


Really, ****ing stop with these topics before Chuck Norris kicks you in the ****ing head. I've seen about 12 polls on this topic, some DA:2 wins, some DA:1 Also unless I'm fully 100% retarded, 51+34 does not add up to 100 so what were the other options?

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[Xewaka]

KenKenpachi wrote...
Really, ****ing stop with these topics before Chuck Norris kicks you in the ****ing head. I've seen about 12 polls on this topic, some DA:2 wins, some DA:1 Also unless I'm fully 100% retarded, 51+34 does not add up to 100 so what were the other options?

On the fence, 14%. Not seen them, 1%. It's in the original post inserted image.
Please read before posting.

[hoorayforicecream]

Aaleel wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The reason you are complaining is because the game behavior is inconsistent with the rules the developers provided (no teleportation). Not that it is unrealistic. Had the developers stated that teleportation was commonplace, then it would still be no less unrealistic (since teleportation has not become any more realistic), but it would be a lot more consistent with the rules of the world.
.

No.  You're basing your realism on the rules of this world, and I'm basing mine on the rules of the world created by the developers.  If they say people can teleport in their world, then teleportation is not unrealistic.  In ours yes, in theirs no.

Magic is realistic in their world, but if someone writes a Dragon Age story and makes a Dwarf use magic, it's unrealistic because it's impossible in the DA world. 

I'm basing realism on its actual definition. You're confusing the term 'realism' with verisimilitude. Yes, Xewaka, I read what you said and I agree with you. I also think that one should not continue to encourage people to use incorrect terminology, because that becomes silly when one person means one thing, and another means a different one, but they both use the same word.

Internal consistency is what I want. Not realism.

[TEWR]

Xewaka wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Yet it would still be no more realistic should it come out of the blue than if it were explained through the story. It would simply go from being inconsistent with the game's rules to being consistent with the game's rules. Funny how that works.

I repeat myself, but:
The problem is that people misuse realism when they mean to say verisimilitude.
Also, consider this: The uncanny valley applies not only to human likeness, but to suspension of disbelief in general. It is easier to admit Dragons flying around and breathing fire in fantasy than to accept an emaciated, prancy joke of a humanoid wielding a gigantic sword with such ease. The former is much more removed from our reality than the later, thus out of the valley and easier to suspend our belief on.

while you make a point I agree with, if one were to actually look at the male Elves' body structure sans shirt -- which you can do in MotA -- you can see that they are not emaciated and are actually muscular.

Just because a person has a lithe body frame doesn't mean they are emaciated or that they can't be muscular.

I'm testament enough to that to the people that know me. I get comments all the time on how skinny I am, yet I'm a really strong person.

*is a bit shameful of saying that, as it sounds like I'm boasting when that's not my intent*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[tmp7704]

Rojahar wrote...

It seems ,more often than not, like a mask or an excuse to give their own arguments and opinions authority rather than a legitimate reason, especially when those complaining about lack of realism in one thing are perfectly fine with lack of realism in everything else.

However, if that is supposed to be just an excuse, why would someone bother to give it instead of the true reason that makes them dislike the subject? Nothing is gained by doing this. It's simpler to accept that when someone says "it doesn't feel realistic to me" then they mean it.

The perception something doesn't feel realistic enough being selective, that's pretty normal -- we all have our own interpretations of what may be realistic in the given settings. See the debate whether it's okay for someone to walk on water, in this very thread. Now if you apply that to everything the game presents you with, you're bound to see different opinions, including ones that will make you wonder "how can he/she object to X but be ok with Y?" in situations where your own reasoning goes different route.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...


If similar characters to yours have been presented as walking through walls, jumping 30 feet in the air, shooting fire from their eyes and walking on water, sure. As I said before, consistency. Not realism. 

There comes a time where the limit upon how far a person can suspend their disbelief is reached.

If there were plausible reasons for why stuff like shooting fire from the eyes could happen -- like say it's a power granted by one of the Dalish Gods or if a mage could channel magical energy to any area of the body -- then it would be a different story. But just out of the blue isn't right.

Yet it would still be no more realistic should it come out of the blue than if it were explained through the story. It would simply go from being inconsistent with the game's rules to being consistent with the game's rules. Funny how that works.

well yea I guess I see what you mean. But personally I wouldn't want all kinds of unrealistic stuff to happen even if it could be plausibly explained. It would just become a bit too silly and detract from the game. The seriousness? The level of immersion? I don't know, but I just have this feeling it might detract from the game.

[MerinTB]

Xewaka wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...
Really, ****ing stop with these topics before Chuck Norris kicks you in the ****ing head. I've seen about 12 polls on this topic, some DA:2 wins, some DA:1 Also unless I'm fully 100% retarded, 51+34 does not add up to 100 so what were the other options?

On the fence, 14%. Not seen them, 1%. It's in the original post inserted image.
Please read before posting.

Zing!

[billy the squid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If you're just talking about weapons specfically than my apologies, but this sounds like a general statement that people shouldn't call something unrealistic in a fantasy world.

The reason you are complaining is because the game behavior is inconsistent with the rules the developers provided (no teleportation). Not that it is unrealistic. Had the developers stated that teleportation was commonplace, then it would still be no less unrealistic (since teleportation has not become any more realistic), but it would be a lot more consistent with the rules of the world.

Edit:

billy the squid wrote...

Yet it wasn't consistent, Meredith jumping about. On top of that the speed was not consistant, nor was the enemies spawning by jumping from roofs.

If the complaint is inconsistency, then it's fine. I would totally agree. But equating consistency to realism is foolish, because it simply isn't accurate.

The problem is that it is neither consistent nor realistic, I wouldn't equate one with the other. Swinging an overtly large sword around is consistent, but unrealistic, DAO had that faux realism, DA2 failed to address it and in some cases while disregarding consistency with its predecessor.

For instance DA2 used the exact weapon size of DAO, both were overtly large and it should have been addresed, yet through the increase in speed and flurishing attacks in DA2, it took something that was straining believability and pushed it to absurd levels.

Merdith leaping about, was neither consistent nor realistic as no adequate explaination was given other than maybe the red Lyrium Idol was responsible, yet Lyrium having such an effect was never present in it's predecessor. That lack of inclusion in the predecessor will not create inconsistency, but giving a weak explaination as to why and disregarding the context of the world in which it is set makes it unrealistic and compunds it by having little to link it to the previous game.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

As-is typical with most fantasy, you can't explicitly explain every aspect of the universe. As such, people expect that areas not dealt with in such a way ought to confirm what we understand about the universe and how it works in real life. It's the whole suspension of disbelief aspect.

You can't throw out all the aspects of reality and your expectations therein unless the setting is able to explicitly explain a new one and essentially replace it. Think about why we have humanoid sentients and not blob or plants. Imagine if you played as a giant worm still labelled "Elf". With no further explanation.

When you'd go "wtf is this?" a reasonable response is not "it's a fantasy setting, idiot. It's not supposed to be real!"

It's why people can take "Mages" throwing fireballs around but not swinging heavy, oversized swords at a frenetic pace. If say, Swords were designed differently with ultra lightweight Materials and that was established and demonstrated (through cutscenes and gameplay) as part of the lore, then this wouldn't be a hot button issue. I think it's also exasperated by the fact that enemies attack slowly, indicating that they perhaps adhere to what we're used to while Hawke and his party are apparently steroid addicts or just HAWKESOME. I know if everyone flung their weapons around like crazy, more people would be upset, but at least it'd be consistent and the complaint would be levelled at the setting as a whole.

The teleport is somewhat less excusable, as it's already been established in the lore that folks can't do that. I know the official reason is that they run really fast but couldn't show that properly (and people say the game wasn't rushed...) but if it's a teleport in the game, it's a teleport.

As a whole, Dragon Age 2 is probably the worst game in recent memory in terms of keeping internal consistency and actively requiring you to use your imagination in order to maintain it.

Also, verisimilitude is a good term here as opposed to outright realistic. Because verisimilitude implies something realism doesn't: context.

In regards to the Elvish issue, I don't really like Dragon Age 2's Elves but I remember seeing a screenshot of Dragon Age 2's redesign within Origins courtesy of tmp and I thought to myself "hey, that's pretty good". So maybe if they switched back to the Origins renderer, Dragon Age 2's had massive problems in some areas. Alistair, for example.

I'd also keep the body models from Origins.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 02 décembre 2011 - 11:20 .

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
However, if that is supposed to be just an excuse, why would someone bother to give it instead of the true reason that makes them dislike the subject? Nothing is gained by doing this. It's simpler to accept that when someone says "it doesn't feel realistic to me" then they mean it.

People do hide their 'real reasons' in cases where they don't think it will hold as much sway as "realism".

Because "I think it's fugly" or "I just hate everything about DA2 on principle" doesn't sound as legit of a reason as "it's unrealistic".