262 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

[bEVEsthda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

[esper]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

There is no such things as elfism in real life and there no universial agreement about how elves should look.

Modifié par esper, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Tom12]

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

There is no such things as elfism in real life and there no universial agreement about how elves should look.

and you still cant change the fact that harpies are bird like creatures,that cyclopes have one eye and that giants are giants even though they arent real, i could write you a whole list of those kind of things 

Modifié par Tom12, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[esper]

Tom12 wrote...

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

There is no such things as elfism in real life and there no universial agreement about how elves should look.

and you still cant change the fact that harpies are bird like creatures,that cyclopes have one eye and that giants are giants i could write you a whole list of those kind of things 

Yes, giants are giants. But the the only common fact are usually that they are big. Visually I have seen about everything in different universe. (Howw big, big is also varies) 

There are no place in lore that says elves are beutifull, or pointy eared. In fact there are a lot of different lore about elves. The thing most common for elves are actually some kind of nature connection which is not even mandetory today.

[bEVEsthda]

esper wrote...

There are no place in lore that says elves are beutifull, or pointy eared.

Says you. Because your point is that you think elves should look like malformed, non-blue navi?
Lore: Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject..
clue: check out common perceptions on this forum.
I've read my Tolkien et al, I've played my BG and DA:O.

[esper]

bEVEsthda wrote...

esper wrote...

There are no place in lore that says elves are beutifull, or pointy eared.

Says you. Because your point is that you think elves should look like malformed, non-blue navi?
Lore: Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject..
clue: check out common perceptions on this forum.
I've read my Tolkien et al, I've played my BG and DA:O.

Tolkien, Bg and Da:O does not make even a big part of accumulated lore - Granted that tolkien is an inspirator for many later fantasy universe, it does not mean that every other fantasy univers has to follow his.
Also common perception on this forum is not a very good idea to follow since we are split about every subject.
 

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

There is no such things as elfism in real life and there no universial agreement about how elves should look.

yup this was my point that you seemed to miss bEVEsthda.

Because there is a universal agreement on Dwarves being short and associated with mining, smithing, crafting, and wisdom; Dwarves are given these traits because it's the universal norm, along with Dwarfism being an actual condition where someone is shorter than the average human being.

Elves however have never had a universal appearance, as they originally started out as being diminuitive in stature and during the 19th century Romanticism movement writers tried to make them taller. Tolkien just continued the attempted idea of them being normal sized.

It caught on certainly. But it wasn't the agreed upon appearance that all Elves should have. Zanallen made a good point on the previous page. Elves have differed in appearance in numerous works of media and it hasn't been any worse for wear.

It's easy to just go with an appearance that's been used before. But it can also be boring after a while. Is the new style perfect? Well, I wouldn't say that. But I'm definitely really happy with how it is right now.

[bEVEsthda]

esper wrote...
Tolkien, Bg and Da:O does not make even a big part of accumulated lore 

Oh, but it does. It is you who live in an esoteric world where maybe the accumulated beliefs have a different density.

Besides, I have other lore in my baggage. Old nordic folklore about creatures that could be seen at dawn and dusk, on meadows and in woods, and even on misty days.  You're right, in that my great grandmothers, grandmothers never specified pointed ears, not what I remember. But they did specify beautiful.

[yusuf060297]

What bothers me from the da2 elves is that they just have no resemblance left to their ancestors, when i look at an da2 elf i would never believe that they build a city called arlathan, and that they had great knowledge of magic, etc, The da2 elves just seem to me like rather the unintelligent and the ugly folk that nobody wants .In da lore they explain them to be majestic otherwise how should they have made arlathan and they are also described to be looking good. .The dao elves had somehow a flair about them left, but the da2 elves just dont seem to have it anymore

Modifié par yusuf060297, 04 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[bEVEsthda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because there is a universal agreement on Dwarves being short and associated with mining, smithing, crafting, and wisdom; Dwarves are given these traits because it's the universal norm, along with Dwarfism being an actual condition where someone is shorter than the average human being.

Elves however have never had a universal appearance, as they originally started out as being diminuitive in stature and during the 19th century Romanticism movement writers tried to make them taller. Tolkien just continued the attempted idea of them being normal sized.

It caught on certainly. But it wasn't the agreed upon appearance that all Elves should have. Zanallen made a good point on the previous page. Elves have differed in appearance in numerous works of media and it hasn't been any worse for wear.

It's easy to just go with an appearance that's been used before. But it can also be boring after a while. Is the new style perfect? Well, I wouldn't say that. But I'm definitely really happy with how it is right now.

Yes, yes. True. And I like the mer (elves) in Morrowind and Skyrim. But that is because they look believable, real, in a way. And because I do not see them as exactly the elves of Tolkien, forgotten realms and DA. They are a different people on a different world, called elves for associations with wellknown concepts.
 

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 décembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

esper wrote...

There are no place in lore that says elves are beutifull, or pointy eared.

Says you. Because your point is that you think elves should look like malformed, non-blue navi?
Lore: Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject..
clue: check out common perceptions on this forum.
I've read my Tolkien et al, I've played my BG and DA:O.

Tolkien, Bg and Da:O does not make even a big part of accumulated lore - Granted that tolkien is an inspirator for many later fantasy universe, it does not mean that every other fantasy univers has to follow his.
Also common perception on this forum is not a very good idea to follow since we are split about every subject.
 

well the 19th Romanticism movement did try to make them men and women of normal stature and beauty. Tolkien just followed suit with that idea.

Before that though they were diminuitive.

but really, it doesn't matter what we the players think. What matters is what the Thedosian population thinks, as that's where Elves exist.

We can agree or disagree with how we view the Elves in terms of beauty, but it ultimately doesn't matter if the devs will it that the Thedosian population finds the new style to be what's attractive.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 décembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[TEWR]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Yes, yes. True. And I like the mer (elves) in Morrowind and Skyrim. But that is because I do not see them as exactly the elves of Tolkien, forgotten realms and DA. They are a different people on a different world, called elves for associations with wellknown concepts.
 

I still need to get Skyrim. Had it on pre-order months ago and then I moved across the country like a week before it came out.

Thankfully, I was only out $5.

Anyway am I understanding you right? You don't have a problem with the Elves of Skyrim and Morrowind because they have a different name but also have characteristics of Elves in the various forms of mythos and folklore?

[esper]

bEVEsthda wrote...

esper wrote...
Tolkien, Bg and Da:O does not make even a big part of accumulated lore 

Oh, but it does. It is you who live in an esoteric world where maybe the accumulated beliefs have a different density.

Besides, I have other lore in my baggage. Old nordic folklore about creatures that could be seen at dawn and dusk, on meadows and in woods, and even on misty days.  You're right, in that my great grandmothers, grandmothers never specified pointed ears, not what I remember. But they did specify beautiful.

No, I actually read those myths. Those elves are described as enspelling, both nothing about how they look, more often it was song and dance they used to 'charm' people.
Their look is never mentioned, When I was little I always took elves for being airy or misty since they were often associated with the later and often (read often not always) dissolved with the coming of the morning. I read Lord of the Rings rather late so the misty elf with the hollow back will always be my 'default' elf and not Tolkien's superior human thing with pointy ears. 
Also remember that 3 times out of 4 they were actually evil creatures...

Lord of the Ring does have an impact, I granted you that. He universe is still not mandatory, escpially not for those of us who has read a lot of fantasy. But he is properly default for a lot of persons who doesn't read that genre and thus have only being presented only with what is popular. (All though, sadly I think Harry Potter might take that role for the next  years).

Bg and da:o. means nothing in regard to folklore as the gaming universe is simply not that big. Now if you want to say that the change in art style between da:o and da2 disturbs you, I can understand that, and you are also entilted to not like da2 and anything associated with it. But saying that da2 elves are not elves is simply not true, because elves are properly the mythogly creature that has undergone most varieties in fantasy and other kinds of fairy tales and thus there is simply no established elf look. 

[tmp7704]

esper wrote...

There are no place in lore that says elves are beutifull, or pointy eared.

The beauty seems to be quite common aspect in the lore, actually -- there's apparently even terms like "elf-beautiful" in old english, used to describe particularly beautiful women in the early versions of the Bible.

[bEVEsthda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Yes, yes. True. And I like the mer (elves) in Morrowind and Skyrim. But that is because I do not see them as exactly the elves of Tolkien, forgotten realms and DA. They are a different people on a different world, called elves for associations with wellknown concepts.
 

I still need to get Skyrim. Had it on pre-order months ago and then I moved across the country like a week before it came out.

Thankfully, I was only out $5.

Anyway am I understanding you right? You don't have a problem with the Elves of Skyrim and Morrowind because they have a different name but also have characteristics of Elves in the various forms of mythos and folklore?

Lol. Try this: I do not have a problem with the "elves" in Skyrim and Morrowind because they're not. They look and feel "real". They are a race defined by TES. Any similarity with any  elves is just a coincident.

The same could be true about DA2 elves, except they look like sh*t even as "ugly". They're not believable. And except that DA elves were clearly the same heritage of Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, in DA:O.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 décembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Tom12]

bEVEsthda wrote...
The same could be true about DA2 elves, except they look like sh*t even as "ugly". They're not believable. And except that DA elves were clearly the same heritage of Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, in DA:O.

Finally someone is talking sense  thats what i tried to say explain before, you just cant change the fact that the da elves are supposed to look like tolkien elves and changing their look just out of the blue and pretend like nothing happened at them isnt just...right, at all

Modifié par Tom12, 03 décembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Nyreen]

This image will have to do. I wish I could scan a facial concept piece of the elves' new look in the guide my friend lent me, because it excellently showcases how not all concept art can be translated well. On a semi-realistic 3-D model the enlarged irises and over-dilated pupils are disturbing, not cute or "fawnish" as one of the developers described them. In the 2-D digital painting they look fine.

I wish Bioware would listen. I mean how could any of the developers look at Orana and not insist on fixing her at least? Part of me suspects her designer just got bored and made the ugliest face he could get away with...

[Wulfram]

I suspect a lot of polishing of the minor NPCs was skipped in the rush to release.

[yusuf060297]

Celestina wrote...
I wish Bioware would listen. I mean how could any of the developers look at Orana and not insist on fixing her at least? Part of me suspects her designer just got bored and made the ugliest face he could get away with...

Yes that annoys me too, that they wont listen, david gaider also said that they dont plan to change it
here is what he said earlier: 

David Gaider wrote...
while our elves may be tweaked in appearance (and, indeed, our face morphing system for all characters is likely to change as we move forward anyhow), we're definitely not going back to humans-with-pointy-ears

i would like a developer to comment on this thread to know, if they changed their thoughts 

Wulfram wrote...
I suspect a lot of polishing of the minor NPCs was skipped in the rush to release.

Fenris wasnt a minor NPC for example and yet, he still looks worse then the minor npcs.(imo)

Modifié par yusuf060297, 04 décembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[Monica83]

awww to bad DAVID says that,,,,

Anyways better human with pointy ears than anorexic donkey with nose splattered by a paddle

[DragonRageGT]

bleetman wrote...

What.

OMG. Great stuff but following the links after this vid I found some amazing DA Origins dance vids? Why isn't this advertisied and I never seen them before? OMG. I wonder if someone would bother doing something like this with DA2! And all can see how much better Origins Elves are as well! Just watch how much happier Zevran looks!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4E4LSc31Y4A

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQsnq83jcQ8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9agB49bGwws

Modifié par RageGT, 04 décembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[FieryDove]

RageGT wrote...

bleetman wrote...

What.

OMG. Great stuff but following the links after this vid I found some amazing DA Origins dance vids? Why isn't this advertisied and I never seen them before? OMG. I wonder if someone would bother doing something like this with DA2! And all can see how much better Origins Elves are as well! Just watch how much happier Zevran looks!

I have seen these. There are much better ones out there. Plus some with the DAA crowd dancin too. Great stuff. They can't do it for da2 without a toolset update is what I have heard.

Yes, Zev indeed was happy back then.

[Urazz]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

Poll has been up for two weeks now, and with the percentages having been stable over the past number of days, here are the results. DA:O elves leading comfortably by 17% over DA2.

Despite being far from representative, like any other poll on social.bioware, with over 370 votes, poll participation was high compared to other polls. (The highest ever participation in a DA related poll was "Your set on DA2 - How do you feel about boycotting DA2 so far?" from one year ago, with 1945 votes. The average vote count for a poll on social.bioware is around 60.)


I have to say I'm surprised; judging from discussion activity, one might have thought the preferences were at least equal. Not that I complain...



Since devs have been fiercely defending every "design choice" introduced in DA2, I don't expect them running to the drawing board now in order to make the elves look realistic again... :whistle:

Umm....Get a bigger sample size than just the people in this forum.  This poll is a relatively small sample size.

[Gunderic]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

She doesn't hold a two meter sized great sword with single hand.

You can't lift 8 pounds with one hand?

But the swords in the game are much more broader than real swords.

Why would any weaponsmith craft a weapon that isn't meant to be usable by an ordinary soldier? Especially in a world where the act of attaching a little magic rock to said weapon will cause it to burst into never-ending flame? If you can break the laws of physics in one way, why is it hard to believe that there aren't other types of enchantments or materials that can make a sword large, but not heavy?

works as in real life until mentioned otherwise.

and because it's stupid.