262 réponses à ce sujet

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Tom12 wrote...

if you are writing a novel you should know what you are talking about, the da world is already set now and since its described that elves are beautiful and attractive they cant change them out of the blue to harry potter elves

And people still do find the new elves beautiful and attractive. In game and out. And even if no one outside of the games found the new elves attractive, it still wouldn't matter as long as the people in the game do find it attractive. We aren't people in Thedas, so we can't know what they consider to be attractive.  Hell, it could be the differences between humans and elves that people in Thedas are attracted to. Like an extreme version of opposites attract. I don't find elongated necks wrapped in gold wire, sharpened teeth or multiple piercings attractive, but there are whole tribes of people who find those features to be part of their spectrum for beauty.

Allow me to post this once again:



and



This is Twiggy. She is far too skinny for my tastes; however, she was a world famous supermodel and a fashion icon. She was voted British woman of the year and the Face of 1966. She has also been on the cover of several fashion magazines.

you're really doing bioware a disservice by posting that.

[Gunderic]

Zanallen wrote...

Tom12 wrote...

My point is that its actually true that elves are "humans with pointy ears" (only prettier then humans)
But, complaining about that is nonesense, its just like complaining that cyclopes have one eye

if the people fell the need to have another different "unique" race they should rather concentrate
on how the fex should look 

In a novel I am working on, elves are taller and more physically imposing than humans and their skin glitters due to mineral deposits naturally occuring in their skin that allow them to use magic.

never mind.

[Plaintiff]

Gunderic wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

She doesn't hold a two meter sized great sword with single hand.

You can't lift 8 pounds with one hand?

But the swords in the game are much more broader than real swords.

Why would any weaponsmith craft a weapon that isn't meant to be usable by an ordinary soldier? Especially in a world where the act of attaching a little magic rock to said weapon will cause it to burst into never-ending flame? If you can break the laws of physics in one way, why is it hard to believe that there aren't other types of enchantments or materials that can make a sword large, but not heavy?

works as in real life until mentioned otherwise.

and because it's stupid.

Stupider than summoning animals out of thin air, raining arrows from the sky, or singing to make your friends stronger?

[Marvin_Arnold]

Zanallen wrote...

In a novel I am working on, elves are taller and more physically imposing than humans and their skin glitters due to mineral deposits naturally occuring in their skin that allow them to use magic.

I think Stephenie Meyer beat you to that. But she calls them "vampires"...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Plaintiff]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

In a novel I am working on, elves are taller and more physically imposing than humans and their skin glitters due to mineral deposits naturally occuring in their skin that allow them to use magic.

I think Stephenie Meyer beat you to that. But she calls them "vampires"...

The fact that they sparkle is really the least of her problems.

[Marvin_Arnold]

Zanallen wrote...

We aren't people in Thedas, so we can't know what they consider to be attractive.  Hell, it could be the differences between humans and elves that people in Thedas are attracted to. Like an extreme version of opposites attract.

That is absolute nonsense. We are (generally, but lore is general as well) attracted to people that look similar to us. This is an instinctive reaction in order to preserve our genetic material. Despite popular belief, in the long run averages attract. Otherwise, our genes would run amok.

Besides, humans in DA are the player's identification object. (Spectator surrogate) They share their tastes, obviously. If (non-DA) Dwarfs like bearded females, that's their problem. They are a curiosity, but not the player's reference.

Besides I don't find elongated necks wrapped in gold wire, sharpened teeth or multiple piercings attractive, but there are whole tribes of people who find those features to be part of their spectrum for beauty.

Because they already look like that themselves. As I said.

Allow me to post this once again:

I think this belongs on 4chan /b/.

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[Melness]

Stupider than summoning animals out of thin air, raining arrows from the sky, or singing to make your friends stronger?

I remember an old post showing how there were some real-life swords that are as big as most two handers in DA2 and that those were used in combat.

So add that to: the inherent artistic license that any fantasy game has and how volume isn't equal to mass, I'd say the swords aren't nearly as stupid as any of the things you said.

After all, DA2 swords aren't WoW swords, those are bizarre.

In short, there's quite a bit of ambiguity to most of the common 'IT ISN'T REALISTIC' complaints. Whatever point you bring should be completely null for any RPG player. If you suspension of disbelief is so pathetically weak and you're so ignorant of gameplay and story segregation, then I must say you have no place in a sword and sorcery rpg. But of course neither of those are true, you played DA:O, you may have played Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, if your immersion wasn't broken then, it shouldn't be broken now.

You also reminded me of one of Leliana's classics she used to sing in every battle. It begins like this:

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH"

On the topic of elves. I like when elves don't look Tolkienesque and I also like when they do (why shouldn't I?).

But I do think many of DA2 elven morphs looked bad, but the few bright spots show us how all elves should have liked. I'm inclined to believe the general appearance of elves in DA2 isn't because of how they were conceived, but rather yet another symptom of a rushed development cycle.

Modifié par Melness, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[Zanallen]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

That is absolute nonsense. We are (generally, but lore is general as well) attracted to people that look similar to us. This is an instinctive reaction in order to preserve our genetic material. Despite popular belief, in the long run averages attract.

Except no. That is just one of many factors that determine what we, as humans, are attracted to. It obviously isn't the only factor or else we would never have mixed race relationships or physically fit men attracted to overweight women. Scientists have also said that people are naturally more attracted to symmetrical faces. Those elves are pretty damn symmetrical. Their facial markings even emphasize that point. Just look at Merrill.

Because they already look like that themselves. As I said.

Except they don't. They look like normal humans who then proceed to modify their bodies to reach that ideal. And the teeth filings and neck lengthenings are female specific modifications. The men don't do it so they can't possibly look like that themselves.

I think this belongs on 4chan /b/.

Chortle chortle chortle.

[Marvin_Arnold]

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

Esper and Ethereal just proved my point. By your reasoning, they aren't Dwarves, just short people. Where are the people conplaining they "don't look like a different species"?

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[tmp7704]

Plaintiff wrote...

Stupider than summoning animals out of thin air, raining arrows from the sky, or singing to make your friends stronger?

Yes, in the sense all things you list are effects of actions which are shown to be taken in the game. In contrast, the reasoning of "all swords are custom enchanted to be lighter than they appear" requires you to actively ignore that while the game does show all other enchantments and effects put on the weapons, this particular one never gets listed. And that it also never mentions such practice.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Scientists have also said that people are naturally more attracted to symmetrical faces. Those elves are pretty damn symmetrical. Their facial markings even emphasize that point. Just look at Merrill.

All game creatures are perfectly symmetrical. The elves aren't any more symmetrical than human, dwarves, qunari or goats.

[Zanallen]

tmp7704 wrote...

All game creatures are perfectly symmetrical. The elves aren't any more symmetrical than human, dwarves, qunari or goats.

True, but their facial markings do emphasize that symmetry.

Edit: As opposed to, say, the dwarven branding on one side of the face.

Modifié par Zanallen, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Marvin_Arnold]

Zanallen wrote...

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

That is absolute nonsense. We are (generally, but lore is general as well) attracted to people that look similar to us. This is an instinctive reaction in order to preserve our genetic material. Despite popular belief, in the long run averages attract.

It obviously isn't the only factor or else we would never have mixed race relationships or physically fit men attracted to overweight women.

You misunderstood my post deliberately, I hope. Note that I wrote "generally". Mixed race relationship and fit men attracted to overweight women are not the "general" norm. Lore, on the other hand, is normative and conservative.

Scientists have also said that people are naturally more attracted to symmetrical faces. Those elves are pretty damn symmetrical. Their facial markings even emphasize that point. Just look at Merrill.

Ahaaa, but these aren't Thedas scientists, now are they? Logical flaw, because you claim Thedas tastes are different. So you can't claim real-life scientists to prove your point!

This notwithstanding, if you average people, you obviously get symmetrical faces. My point proven again. (Besides scientist have proven that people like symmetry with a slight imperfection, but that is beyond the point.)

Because they already look like that themselves. As I said.

Except they don't. They look like normal humans who then proceed to modify their bodies to reach that ideal. And the teeth filings and neck lengthenings are female specific modifications. The men don't do it so they can't possibly look like that themselves.

 

OK, just for you, I rephrase: Because they look like the other women in their tribe. Tribal average. Your exotism is the Kayan people's average. That's why they're attracted to them.

(sigh) I'm afraid this isnt going anywhere...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

True, but their facial markings do emphasize that symmetry.

But then if it was a factor, you'd expect mentions about the dalish elves being particularly attractive, as they're the only ones to utilize such markings. Instead, it's said few people even know what the dalish elves look like (brother Genitivi wasn't aware of the dalish tattoos until he encountered a dalish himself) and the city elves still get hired as servants etc because they're "pleasant to look at", despite having bare faces. Also, you don't see any brothel elves (or anyone there really) utilize such painting to appear more attractive to the clients... something you could reasonably expect if the population of Thedas was indeed into it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Zanallen]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

You misunderstood my post deliberately, I hope. Note that I wrote "generally". Mixed race relationship and fit men attracted to overweight women are not the "general" norm. Lore, on the other hand, is normative.

The lore doesn't say that all elves are attractive or that all humans find elves attractive. That's just nonsense. At best, humans generally find elves attractive. So now we have to figure out why. It can't be because they are considered, on average, more beautiful than human women. At least, not with the same standards of beauty. There were very few good looking elves in DAO, after all. So why are humans attracted to elves when there are humans who are just as if not more physically attractive?

OK, just for you, I rephrase: Because they look like the other women in their tribe. Tribal average.

But they certainly weren't always attempting to achieve this ideal. At some point in time, members of the tribe decided that elongating your necks or failing your teeth to points was more beautiful than the average human form. Over time, this ideal then became the norm. The point is that standards of beauty are constantly evolving and are not in any way world wide. Different groups have different standards and those standards are subject to change over time.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

It can't be because they are considered, on average, more beautiful than human women. At least, not with the same standards of beauty. There were very few good looking elves in DAO, after all. So why are humans attracted to elves when there are humans who are just as if not more physically attractive?

Well, there were very few good looking anything. So it's possible that the elves are indeed more beautiful than humans on average, as that'd simply require having some more of good looking elves than humans, and i don't think anyone actually did game-wide calculations in this regard. Or that they're intended to be, and for whatever reasons the face morph authors weren't able to give it justice.

[TheRealJayDee]

Tom12 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
The same could be true about DA2 elves, except they look like sh*t even as "ugly". They're not believable. And except that DA elves were clearly the same heritage of Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, in DA:O.

Finally someone is talking sense  thats what i tried to say explain before, you just cant change the fact that the da elves are supposed to look like tolkien elves and changing their look just out of the blue and pretend like nothing happened at them isnt just...right, at all

Thanks, that's what I've been saying all along. For me it's not only about the new elves being ugly, which I do think they are, it's that BioWare just like that changes their own setting. And I've been told countless times that it's BW prerogative to do so, and got the whole "elves need to be more distinctive" and "not just humans with pointy ears" talk in return. While I agree with it being Bioware's right to do whatever they want with their own IP's, it still doesn't make much sense to me why they did it.

They were working on creating the Dragon Age universe for how long before DA:O came out? And then before DA2 came out they realized they got their elves, one of the major races and an optional race for the player character, completely wrong in their first game, as well as the main enemy, the darkspawn AND the kossith. Just wtf? I can live with the kossith and their lack of horns in the first game, that can probably be explained and maybe actually enhances the race as a whole. But elves and darkspawn? I honestly can see neither reason nor benefit in their redesign.

All it does for me is weakening the overall feel of a thought out, consistent new fantasy world and therefore the whole DA franchise. Make up your mind about your world from the start, or expect to create massive irritations with your seemingly random changes. (and from the start means before DA:O, I believe I had this exact conversation with Mr. Gaider once)

[Rawgrim]

Re-designing the elves and the darkspawn in the middle of the series (so far in the middle anyway), seems a bad choice. its clearly messing up the lore and alot of other things.

[Plaintiff]

tmp7704 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Stupider than summoning animals out of thin air, raining arrows from the sky, or singing to make your friends stronger?

Yes, in the sense all things you list are effects of actions which are shown to be taken in the game. In contrast, the reasoning of "all swords are custom enchanted to be lighter than they appear" requires you to actively ignore that while the game does show all other enchantments and effects put on the weapons, this particular one never gets listed. And that it also never mentions such practice.

DA: O doesn't offer any justification for these actions being possible, so I don't think it matters if they're the "effects of actions taken in the game". These are abilities specific to rogues, who, so far as we know, possess no magical talent whatsoever. Firing a single arrow in the sky should not  cause them to hail down within a chosen area, what "action" being taken could possily justify that effect?

We were given fair warning beforehand that the art direction of the series was changing so, however DA:O worked, it's now irrelevent. Besides which, there was never anything in the lore of the previous game that said the acrobatics present in DA2 were impossible. The combat mechanics in both games have always been separate from lore and story, so to say that DA2 interferes with that now is silly.

[tmp7704]

Plaintiff wrote...

DA: O doesn't offer any justification for these actions being possible, so I don't think it matters if they're the "effects of actions taken in the game".

In matters in the sense by making them explicit results of actions you can undertake, the game effectively tells you "such a thing is possible in this setting".

In contrast, the ability to enchant heavy things to become light is theoretical as it's never confirmed, never shown, and begs a question if that's indeed possible "because enchantment!" then why am i not allowed to use this exact ability to manually enchant all my armour in the same way, to get around the strength requirement to equip it, e.g?
 

These are abilities specific to rogues, who, so far as we know, possess no magical talent whatsoever. Firing a single arrow in the sky should not  cause them to hail down within a chosen area, what "action" being taken could possily justify that effect?

The description of Rain of Arrows says the archer fires "multiple projectiles which then rain down on the area over time". (for the DA2 equivalent it says it's "entire quiver" iirc) What causes these projectiles to fall down? Gravity, most likely.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[esper]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

esper wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I never heard anyone complaining about DA:O Dwarves looking just like "short stocky humans with an alcohol problem

Probably because Dwarfism is a condition that results in a person being shorter than a normal person, so making the Dwarves short makes sense.

And who doesn't love alcohol?

 I believe that was the point. Did you really miss that? Or post just to make it even more obvious?

Dwarves are not just mythical creatues, it is an real life condition as well which means that a person is much shorter than and average person.

Esper and Ethereal just proved my point. By your reasoning, they aren't Dwarves, just short people. Where are the people conplaining they "don't look like a different species"?

But they do look like a different species. Their bone structure is different from humans...
And I am going to admit it, I hated Oghren (yes, sacrileges - I know) for being a boring dwarven clichee when there were more interesting dwarves in Orzommar. Luckily Varric made up for that in da2.

[tmp7704]

esper wrote...

But they do look like a different species. Their bone structure is different from humans...

It's not 'different from humans' because they are humans, too. It's different from average human appearance but then that just means human appearances vary more and include wider range than people are used to think.

Albino people are similarly rare, but it doesn't make them look any more/less like different species too, e.g. And you can bet if a game had separate species of fair-skinned, red-eyed white-haired folks, many would be all "oh how lame, they're just humans with white hair". And quite rightly so.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:16 .

[macrocarl]

I don't do polls and I'm sure lots of people skip it too so I'm not sure why a poll would be informative.

[Nyreen]

macrocarl wrote...

I don't do polls and I'm sure lots of people skip it too so I'm not sure why a poll would be informative.

I don't know, maybe because polls reflect opinions through percentages and are be used to determine how the majority feels about a subject.

Modifié par Celestina, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Meris]

The question is:

Do you hate Dragon Age II elves because of their design, or because you felt their morphs were generally bad?

I mean, there are some pretty awesome mods in DragonAgeNexus that 'fixes' many strange elves from Dragon Age II. Zevran comes to mind.