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[Gervaise]

I wonder if this has ever been answered satisfactorily but it is something that has bugged me since the first run through and I am now on my seventh.   Anders plan was to meet up with Karl in the middle of the night at the Chantry.  Why would he think that Karl would be able to go there unaccompanied by any Templars in the middle of the night?   Even at that early stage we know that Kirkwall is far stricter than other Circles.  It is not as though the Chantry is next door to the Gallows - you have to cross water to get to it and so I imagine that any mage wishing to visit the Chantry out of hours would have to receive special permission, even if travel there during the day was allowed in order for them to pray and listen to sermons or get the blessing of the Grand Cleric.    Now if he had been told to loiter around and hide until the place cleared for the day, that would be understandable, though you'd think there would be a roll call of mages leaving the gallows and returning, so they'd know if someone was missing.   However, Anders says he saw Karl enter the Chantry not long before Hawke arrives, so he has clearly gone there during the night.

The reason for all this puzzling is that right from the moment Anders admitted that the correspondence with Karl had stopped, I assumed the worst, yet apparently Anders still sent yet another message outlining his plan when he admits that the previous ones have probably been intercepted.    So was he really hoping that Templars would be there so he could bust some heads?     Among the various actions in DA2 which defy logic, this one seems a leading contender.

[GavrielKay]

It is a bit weird. Especially since later, the Tranquility quest has you going through those tunnels from Darktown to save Ella. You'd think if there were some secret escape tunnel that could be accessed from the relative safety of Darktown, that would be a better place than the Hightown Chantry to meet up.

I wonder if there was supposed to be a reason, or if they just threw a dart at the Kirkwall map and hit the Chantry.

[Plaintiff]

Would Karl be allowed to go anywhere without being accompanied? Would Karl be allowed to go anywhere at all? Being outside of the Gallows is a miraculous feat on its own terms. And as for crossing water, well, he has to do that anyway, because the Gallows is on its own island.

Once he's gotten across (however he managed that), he might as well put as much distance between himself and the Gallows as he possibly can. And the Chantry, despite its association with the templars is a relatively safe place at night. It's closed off to the public and deserted.

All sorts of clandestine meetings go on there, it's the hip spot for the criminal underworld of Kirkwall, and an immediatly recognizable landmark on top of that.

[Arthur Cousland]

Karl very well could have been made tranquil prior to being at the chantry for the reunion with Anders. At that point, the templars could have helped Karl get there as bait for Anders.

With Anders and Karl discussing their plans for the escape through letters, it shouldn't be any surprise that the templars found one of the letters.

Even after the templars were on to Karl and his escape, Anders kept sending letters, which doesn't make any sense. This escape was doomed from the start, mainly because of the two idiots involved.

[GavrielKay]

I assumed that yes, Karl was made Tranquil before the final plans for his "rescue" were made. I still think Anders should have been quite put off by the notion of meeting him in the Chantry. I would think there is a squad of Templar guards in the Chantry at all times to protect the sisters and mothers and probably a load of artifacts as well.

[TEWR]

I assume that it was a ploy to trick the Templars.

"Why would a mage go to the Chantry if they want to escape? Nah they wouldn't go there. We'll check elsewhere".

Might've worked had Karl not been made Tranquil. As for Anders using the tunnels 3 years later, it's really likely he discovered them in those 3 years after the incident

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 décembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[Estelindis]

Because the devs only had time to make a small number of areas and, apart from the mage-templar area we weren't allowed to enter until chapter three, this made the most sense out of the ones they already had.

I really wish I thought there was a better answer.

[Gervaise]

The thing is that if Karl hadn't been made tranquil, the moment he was discovered to be missing, the Templars could start to track him with his phylactery but there are areas of Kirkwall that the Templars seem rather loath to enter if they can avoid it but the Chantry isn't one of them and is pretty centrally placed. If Karl was able to get out of the Gallows in the middle of the night, the first place he would have landed was the docks, so it would make sense to say, "I'll be waiting on the wharf". From there you could keep a watch from the shadows and when you saw that Karl was alone, rendeavous and the whisk him away, either to the lower reaches of the city or out of it altogether. The plot would have made more sense if Anders did not suspect the letters had been intercepted and the tranquil Karl jhad been got to write to Anders suggesting the Chantry meeting.

The other strange thing in the quest was the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel that you can get off the Templar Lieutentant's corpse only if you realise it is there and you can get to him before the fight ends. Otherwise you are whisked out of the Chantry following the exchanges with Karl. The letter isn't vital plotwise but it does give some insight into the current situation among the Templar order with regard to how things are run and the fact that some Templars do have a conscience and object to what Alrik is doing are being subjected to intimidation when they try to raise the matter with Meredith. The thing is, why put it there at all if there is no guarantee that it will be read? Either make it something you get automatically or don't include it at all.

I must admit I also thought making the Chantry a location of two major battles (Karl and that chap Isabella was after) seemed a bit odd. At least in the Karl one, Templars were on hand. In the other there were major explosions from magical spells, dog barking and yells of dying people and yet no one from the Chantry thought to enquire what the hell was going on. No wonder you never see an ordinary worshippers when you visit, it is clearly far too dangerous a location for mere religious devotion.

[Sons of Horus]

I Just happen to think it was bad game design or plot choices just like any other. After all In act three a load of clerics, civilians, Grand cleric and even one or two templars (guard duty I presume) get blown up in the night.
 
I think it suffered from the same plot twist of the chantry empty so that Patrice is able to kill Saemus and that Isabella can have her moment to kill Castillon’s lackey Hayder . Hell even the Qunari somehow get in unopposed, I’m surprised people didn’t gather to mob the docks for that.

[Thiefy]

Anders was in denial. He's not exactly the most rational of the companions. Or you can just say the game was rushed. either way i didn't think about this until you mentioned it so good catch

[Arthur Cousland]

Yes, there certainly is a lot of violence that goes on in a place of worship. One would think that after all of the corpses that keep turning up in the Chantry in the morning, that they'd start having night time security of the place.

I guess in a city like Kirkwall, with the thin veil, and violence being commonplace, that it shouldn't actually seem that strange.

[Sir JK]

I think the location was rather deliberately chosen. Karl (or the templars) chose it for the same reason that the people hunting Isabela chose it.

Because there is nothing odd at all about someone entering the chantry at the dead of night. Everyone is always welcome in the house of the Maker. It is always open, everyone can reasonable expect to be left alone and it is large enough to allow you to remain unseen.

This unlike the streets, which are not safe, the palace, which is well guarded, or the inns which aren't private.

[Fylimar]

Sir JK wrote...

I think the location was rather deliberately chosen. Karl (or the templars) chose it for the same reason that the people hunting Isabela chose it.

Because there is nothing odd at all about someone entering the chantry at the dead of night. Everyone is always welcome in the house of the Maker. It is always open, everyone can reasonable expect to be left alone and it is large enough to allow you to remain unseen.

This unlike the streets, which are not safe, the palace, which is well guarded, or the inns which aren't private.

That's what I thought, too. I guess, the mages are allowed to go to the Chantry to pray, so Anders would meet Karl there  to avoid suspicion. And I was of the impression, that Anders was relatively new to Kirkwall and didn't knew his way around that well and the Chantry is kind of hard to miss, so he may wanted to make sure, he finds Karl.
What I found more strange is the general absence of templars in the CHantry apart from the incidences (Karl, Sister Petrice). In Ferelden, there were always templars in the Chantry as far as I can remember

[Gervaise]

If mages are allowed to go to the Chantry to pray, it would be during the day, not at night, and they would be accompanied by templars. What is the point of keeping mages in an island prison and then let them go around the city unaccompanied just because they say they happen to want to pray at the Chantry? There is no reason why they couldn't have a small shrine within the Gallows - the Ferelden Circle had its own place of worship. Also if mages were allowed out of the Gallows to visit the Chantry unaccompanied, what would be stopping them dropping in on other locations, while they were out, even if they weren't thinking of escaping. The whole point of the Circle is to keep the general populace safe from the mages and given the high incidence of mages turning into abominations in Kirkwall, allowing them to run around unaccompanied by Templar supervision just does not seem in keeping with the alleged stricter regime under Meredith. Anders had been in the city long enough to pick up on the rumours on the treatment of mages and could surely have done sufficient research to discover whether it was normal to allow mages to visit the Chantry. He should also have been able to discover which quay the boat from the Gallows normally landed at, so it was hardly necessary to use the Chantry just because it was good landmark. Still, may be he just wasn't thinking straight - making good plans did not seem one of his strong points.