19 réponses à ce sujet

[scm1893]

My comments concern the vanilla version of which Bioware is responsible. Thank the Maker for the mod writers who corrected many of the issues.

1. This is a minor complaint so I'm getting it out of the way. I prefer to play as a human fighter, yet the game seems tailored to the rogue class. This is indicative of all rpgs who seem compelled to offer the player the opportunity to be evil. I don't object to playing an evil character but I don't want to be forced to, just to open locks. I can't just leave them because there may be a vital component to a quest stashed within.

2. Now my big gripe; companions. I just started Awakenings and was met with Mhairi's death and thus incensed enough to finally express my dissatisfaction with this game.
First, there's Alistar, the almost Templar. Is he a man or a boy in a man suit? He's supposed to be inline for the throne but he prefers to follow and take orders. At least he was a solid fighter and didn't complain constantly.
Now to the joining ritual. Why was Jory even there? He had a pregnant wife! Does it makes sense he was proper candidate? Why didn't Duncan have Ser Gilmore with him when he came to get me. Would've made more sense than having a thief and a married man as candidates. I picture Duncan sticking his head in a pool room door and asking, "Anybody wanna be a Grey Warden?"
Next there's Morrigan, the mage of the wilds (apostate). How is it I can walk through cities and even the Circle Tower and not a single Templar cries foul? I finally got so sick of her complaints, I left her in the camp. It wasn't that I objected to her candid opinions but I like to play a champion of the downtrodden and she completely lacks compassion.
We get to Lothering and there's Leliana; the singing thief, almost priest, one of my favorites. Now what's her story again? She's a bard but she's giving up her naughty ways to serve the circle but lo, the maker calls upon her to fight darkspawn with me. She didn't have any trouble with returning to her thieving ways though.  Well, whatever, she was an angel who could fight like a demon and rarely had any complaints.
Which brings us to Sten the murderer. I'm supposed to offer him compassion because he killed a family accidentally while in blind rage. My first playthrough I got him released much to my regret. He constantly criticized me and a dual- wielding Leliana could down three darkspawn while he was still winding up. The next time I left him hanging in the basket for the darkspawn to find.
Wynne at least gave me a replacement for Morrigan. She was compassionate and like the dear sweet mommy I never had.
I found Oghren so offensive I left him in Orzammer until Bioware forced him into my group for the final confrontation with Brancha.
Zevran? Why would I want a failed assassin? I already had a thief in the group. But, I bit and took him in the first time, thinking Bioware had some quest linked to his presence. No, they didn't. It was just as I suspected. I should've just cut his throat.
Now I'm back to Mhairi. I just started Awakenings with my female rogue thinking Mhairi would be ideal as a companion.
Here are the choices I have as companions at this point. Mhairi, a champion on the side of good, dying to be a Grey Warden. (pardon the pun) Anders, the apostate who from the looks of the battle site aided the darkspawn in defeating the Templars before dispatching the darkspawn. Nonetheless, he is a criminal under the laws of the realm. And we have Oghren, the stinking drunken sexist pig dwarf again.
Well, well, and which one dies? Having done a little research I find I get Howe's kid as a companion choice later. That should be marvelous. His dad and I were such good friends. I don't know much about future companions except I believe one's a dwarf and one's an elf which thrills me to no end. I guess I could respec my character into a ranger and pretend I'm playing LOTR. 
I once tried to play NWN2 and put it aside because my companions were something like a monkey, a giraffe and a ghost or something equally absurd.
So Bioware, if you're listening (and I doubt you are) I want a choice of companions on the side of good. I like to play paladin characters "saving the princess and killing the undead". If I wanted to be connected to a pack of thieves and murderers, I'd play GTA or some other gangster storyline game.
My son's already played through DAO and DAA and told me he's done with the Dragon Age series and in all likelyhood I will be also.
And for all you who want to rush Bioware's defense and tell me what a great game this is; save your post. I ain't listening. As I said previously, it was the mod writers who made this game enjoyable for me. I credit Bioware for providing them the tools. Had it not been for mods, I probably would not have finished the game.

[Corker]

I was very disappointed with the halla. The halla-keeper told me that the halla led the elves through the forests to their next campsite. Then I went into the forest, and there was a herd of halla! I tried to follow them around, but they didn't go anywhere. What a waste of ten minutes.

And what about the bear in Denerim? It has a label but it doesn't have a quest or an ability. Is this a bug? If you're going to show me a bear in a cage, shouldn't there be a bear-related quest?

And don't get me started on the ravens in Return to Ostagar.

[Plaintiff]

I can't tell if you're trolling or if you genuinely managed to completely miss the point.

There is no "good/evil" dichotomy in Origins. Most of the issues and characters are morally ambiguous. There's no Karma meter or anything of the kind by which you can measure the "goodness" of your actions. The only thing that's even close to that is companion approval, which varies depending on their personalities. You want to play a "champion for good" and uphold the laws of Ferelden, but the fact is that many of Ferelden's laws are unjust, and based in bigotry. I could roleplay a "champion for good" while still flouting the law at every turn, because my moral values are different to yours.

And actually, Zevran does have a quest, of sorts. It's simply not clearly labelled as such. You'll only find out his plot relevance if you take him with you to places, and the outcome is dependant on your relationship with him.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Corker wrote...

I was very disappointed with the halla. The halla-keeper told me that the halla led the elves through the forests to their next campsite. Then I went into the forest, and there was a herd of halla! I tried to follow them around, but they didn't go anywhere. What a waste of ten minutes.

And what about the bear in Denerim? It has a label but it doesn't have a quest or an ability. Is this a bug? If you're going to show me a bear in a cage, shouldn't there be a bear-related quest?

And don't get me started on the ravens in Return to Ostagar.

You didn't mention the real heartbreak --no griffons. If I'm going to be a fabled Grey Warden, I want to find the last griffon in Ferelden and train it to love only me and to fly to my side whenever I call. I was told there would be griffons. The griffons are a lie.

[tklivory]

No, the cake is a li--- Ah, ah, ah, you almost got me.

Besides, you only really need cookies anyway.

But why did only Sten get cookies?  There should have been more fat kids to steal cookies and candy from.  Like, totally.

Modifié par tklivory, 03 décembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

tklivory wrote...

No, the cake is a li--- Ah, ah, ah, you almost got me.

Besides, you only really need cookies anyway.

But why did only Sten get cookies?  There should have been more fat kids to steal cookies and candy from.  Like, totally.

For sure. That was a total bummer. Hey, they should make Dailana a companion! She may be as dumb as a box of rocks, but no foul language or bogus behavior. Chyah?

[tklivory]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

For sure. That was a total bummer. Hey, they should make Dailana a companion! She may be as dumb as a box of rocks, but no foul language or bogus behavior. Chyah?

Way!  Like, who else is better against the gnarly charlies!  Radical!

*snert*

Although there is a maximum of ten battles per area because, like, she only has ten nails.  Pity, but there it is.  *Hmmm...* Unless Wynne's healing magic can regrow nails...  Inifinite battle power ahoy!  Quick, how does one make an Archdemon break a human's fingernail?

(umm, sorry, inside joke time over)


Anyway, OT: how is a rogue evil?   Just because they have an occasional sense of moral ambiguity towards item ownership doesn't automatically make them evil.  You don't even have to play a rogue as a stealth/pick lock, you can go straight for dex/DW build and never open a chest in your life.  So that complaint... well, doesn't really make sense.  That's like arguing that all warriors are dumb jocks and all mages are manipulative bastards...

Meh, going back to Dailana-mode.

So, like, the griffons would have been, like, totally sweet, brah!  Plus, like, remember that cadre of cats in Denerim?  Why couldn't I, like, use them as, like, totally gnarly scouts while wandering in the back alleys.  LIke, opportunity totally wasted, Bioware!  Duh!

[Tryynity]

Dear OP,

1. A Paladin is basically Lawful Good - so your fighter can be that via the RPG aspect - make Lawful Good choices only - Wield a Greatsword - Use the word "Smite" - alot and you are a Paladin.

Ok so you cant lay on hands or cast uber Pali spells - but you can train Templar and pretend a little that you can.

2. RE: Rogues - my favourite class

Non of mine are evil - they are all Chaotic - Good the worst was Chaotic - Neutral.

- you can ignore the chests or build up the rogue skils in either Leliana or Zevran - I did the few times I played a Mage and a Warrior

3. And I am curious which MODS made the game better for you?

4. RE: Companions = Thieves/Murderers

As a Paladin - you can save your companions and the kingdom of ferelden

a.  Help Zevran escape his life of slavery to the Crows = Good Deed
b.  Protect Leliana from her old life and help her stay on the good & narrow path = Good Deed
c.  Help Alistair to grow into a man - put him on the throne where he can make wrongs right = Good Deed
d.  Find Sten's sword - Sten happy chappy = good deed
e.  Help Wynne put her past to rest = good deed
f.  Oghren & Morrigan.... okay Im at a loss with those two

Suddenly most of your "bad" characters have been influenced in a postive way by ur pali self

Modifié par Tryynity, 03 décembre 2011 - 05:20 .

[actionhero112]

There really is no way for alistair or any of the companions to assert themselves in game realistically. Since a lot of the story depends on your warden, it wouldn't make much sense for Alistair to have an assertive personality. This would end in you doing everything he wanted, or him leaving your party. What I'm trying to convey is that while companions can voice their opinions and junk, it wouldn't make sense for them to 'take over the leadership' so to speak.

Morrigan can remain unnoticed because there isn't a giant letter A tatoo'd on her forehead, just because she doesn't subscribe to mage's fashion weekly doesn't mean every templar will take her exposed cleavage to mean she is an apostate. People are varied in real life, and I found it hilarious that you condemn alistair for being a pushover and yet you also condemn morrigan for NOT being a pushover. Consistency is the bane of the champion of the downtrodden, apparently. The rest of your rant is basically you not liking people's personalities, which says more about you, than the actual characters.

Also I have no idea why you criticize sten. You got to kill a murderer. Any other RPG would have forced him into your party.

Sir Jory is there because he foils Daveth's death. Both of these deaths really illuminate what it is to be a Grey Warden. Sacrifice.

Also your warden's personality depends on you, though it is fair to assume most people play their wardens as manipulative bastards, even though they probably don't realize it. The coercion skill puts the jedi mind trick to shame, 'these aren't the droids you are looking for' is small potatoes to what you can convince/intimidate people to do in game. But thats neither here nor there.


Also, why would Mihari join the GW? She isn't the least bit on the fringes of society. Exiled or Disenfranchised. Analyzing the other characters in the game should have taught you what kind of person joins your party. Here is a hint, it isn't the socially accepted ones with pasts in the royal guard, I'll tell you that.

This post might be a bit harsh, but I don't know what you were expecting posting in a public forum dedicated to the game you are bashing.

Modifié par actionhero112, 03 décembre 2011 - 05:17 .

[tklivory]

Ya know, for someone who likes to play a paladin, you sure do like to kill off the companions preemptively with very little understanding of their natures or an attempt to realize that all ponds have something lurking beneath the surface. Kind of a sad reflection on the devout mindset, I suppose.

[Tryynity]

tklivory wrote...

Ya know, for someone who likes to play a paladin, you sure do like to kill off the companions preemptively with very little understanding of their natures or an attempt to realize that all ponds have something lurking beneath the surface. Kind of a sad reflection on the devout mindset, I suppose.

I kinda think Pali's tend to be a bit devout - but it is up to the player of course.

My Palidan's are more Joan of Arc type characters "spirit led" rather than "church/religion led"

Andraste would be a good example "spirit led"

Meredith in DA2 would be more "religion led"

Modifié par Tryynity, 03 décembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[tklivory]

I play my paladins as Lawful Neutral more than Lawful Good when actually tabletoppin' it. Once I played a Lawful Evil Paladin, and it was odd when I kept butting heads with our Chaotic Good rogue. XD

Strangely, I would classify my Neutral Good Druid as the most 'devout' of my characters...


I wonder where Shartan and Sebastian would fall in the alignment spectrum...

And what would the Archons be, as well?


EDIT: And Zathrian... kind of an odd ball, when discussing the devout.  It's hard to tell if he really thinks he's 'right' or not: does he just gives in to weariness, or does he truly believe that he needs to redeem himself? Especially if you decide to kill all the werewolves...

Modifié par tklivory, 03 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[Merilsell]

OP you do realize that there is no black and white in Dragon Age, right?

Within this game, the shades of grey are important. If you like to see the characters within black and white and play this game that way, more power to you...but you'll always miss the fine nuances within which made this game so great and enjoyable.

Edit:

And for all you who want to rush Bioware's defense and tell me what a
great game this is; save your post. I ain't listening.

Ah, pardon for taking you seriously before. If I get you right, you are posting a thread in a forum, ****ing and moaning about how EVULZ this game is and forbid others to say their opinion to your post full of complains? Yep...that makes sense.

Modifié par Merilsell, 04 décembre 2011 - 02:17 .

[GSSAGE7]

You're joking about the class thing, right? If anything, the game is geared to the mage class. True, you tend to need a rogue for basic lockpicking, but RPGs have been doing that since D&D. Anyway, classes have nothing to do with alignment. I played a rogue who was generally a good person, although Orzammar kind of annoyed him.

Actually, if you listen to him at Redcliffe, he was never really supposed to be in line for the throne, because he's a bastard and all. As for him preferring to follow, it's simply part of his personality.

Wardens take the best, they make that very clear. Jory won a tournament in Redliffe, and Daveth manage to get Duncan's purse (read The Calling to see why that's impressive). Duncan probably assumed that Jory knew that Grey Wardens have to leave their families, like other people seem to know. Not his fault that Jory is a moron.

You're going to have to accept that Templars just aren't good at recognizing mages. If you learn that now, it hurts much more in DA2.

The fact that the maker told her to use her talents kind of overrides the complaint about not having a problem using it, because, you know, GOD is telling you to do it.

You're not supposed to do anything. It's perfectly valid to let Sten get brutally murdered by darkspawn. As for his critisism, once you learn about Qunari culture, some of his comments make sense in retrospect. Qunari people are defined by what they do, not who they are. You are a Grey Warden, so you fight darkspawn. He disapproves of anything short of a march on the archdemon itself, because you're not supposed to do the other things, as far as he's concerned.

Oghren was practically a joke character. He did show signs of hidden depth, but they were burried under fart and beer jokes in Awakening, sadly.

Zevran is there to be your dual-weilding rogue. Most people tend to make Leliana a bow-weilding rogue. Plus, the assassin specilization is useful, at least. Also, he's a male romance option for those who don't like the "good" Alistair.

Bioware was pulling a prank with Mhairi, that I only found funny once it was explained. She was a normal party member, in a game where none of your team mates are normal, all of the footage from the trailer happened in an hour, and her armor is red (aka She's a red-shirt).

I doubt Anders helped the darkspawn kill the Templars. It seems far more in character for his Awakening self to sit on the sidelines and insult the Templars, and then finish the darkspawn off once they were done.

Nathaniel doesn't like you any more than you like him at first, for a similiar reason, what with you breaking into his mansion and killing him in his basement in cold blood. After his companion quest, where his own sister tells him how much of a monster he was (and if you aren't a dbag to him), he'll realize Daddy Howe was, in fact, a monster. He's also a generally good character, ignoring his intro.

Sigrun, ignoring her past, seems exactly like the character you'd like, all good-aligned and optimistic.

Velanna... she's twice as angry as Morrigan, but with half of the character development. Give Anders some offensive spells, because you won't like her.

Also, there's one character you forgot, the corpse of a Grey Warden possed by a spirit of Justice. He is literally a fade spirit defined by the very idea of pursuiting knowledge. He can be a bit... harsh in his punishments, but he's generally a good character too.

But the arguing of Good and Evil in Dragon Age doesn't mean much, because aside from the darkspawn and Rendon Howe, everyone is a little grey. Zevran and Shale have heroric moments, and even Alistair has his darker moments, such as the Landsmeet.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

tklivory wrote...

Ya know, for someone who likes to play a paladin, you sure do like to kill off the companions preemptively with very little understanding of their natures or an attempt to realize that all ponds have something lurking beneath the surface. Kind of a sad reflection on the devout mindset, I suppose.

One of my favourite webcomics, The Order of the Stick, introduced a Paladin of the ostensibly Lawful Good alignment at around strip #200.

Meet Miko, a character who believes if something appears to be evil or works for someone evil, it should die.

Now meet O-Chul, a paladin of exactly the same order and alignment as Miko.

Spot the differences.

[tklivory]

I am a sexy shoeless god of war!!!

Um, I mean, I Order of the Stick.

[Tryynity]

Oh me too - I love it !!!

My game buddy from DDO introduced me to it - I havent read it in ages. LOL I think I need to re-visit it.

[Merilsell]

Btw, while rereading the OP's post I was thinking how great he/she would get along with TheButterflyEffect *cough*

[tklivory]

I love billy goats! Like, totally!

[Shinobu]

@OP

1. rogue does not automatically equate to evil   Rogue is a profession, evil is a state of mind. Leliana and Duncan are rogues and I don't think either is evil.

Also, no one is forcing you to open the chests. If you are too OCD to pass a locked chest (I am), then look inside to make sure there's no plot-important stuff and leave everything else there if you feel bad about stealing. It's pretty rare that the stuff in the chest is so useful or valuable that you'd suffer by not taking it. Are you sad because your desire to get ahead is gimped by your desire to "be good"? How does that differ from real life? If you make a moral choice not to steal, stick with it and accept the consequences.

2. There are plenty of good aligned characters and plenty of great characters to be around. If you don't like the characters you're with, change them. I played a rogue in DA:A and like you, thought I needed tanks. Playing with Justice and Oghren wasn't fun, though. So the second time through with the same character, I said:  "Screw the tank, I'm making a 3 rogue party and taking Anders as an Arcane Warrior." That playthrough was a blast.

As others have pointed out, DA is a "dark fantasy" -- that means moral ambiguity. Many of the people you think are "evil," aren't. Many of the people you think are "good" may not be as pure as you think. Grey Wardens have to be pragmatists in order to fight the darkspawn. That includes recruiting murderers and thieves in the cause of a "greater good." If you talk to the thieves and murderers you may just start to like them. You may even convert some to your way of thinking, or at least stop them from committing more crimes and murders. If your beliefs are so shaky that they can't stand possible contamination by party members with different morals, then DA probably isn't for you.

As a last resort, if everyone is too morally reprehensible for your character, leave them all at camp and just take Dog (there's a mod for that, I'm sure).