164 réponses à ce sujet

[CptBomBom00]

John Newton wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Too late. If you hadn't figured out by now, I rate the "RPG factor" of a game based on how open it is to different choices and methods. Other major titles of this year apart from Bioware include Deus Ex and Skyrim, and they're both clearly been less open to choice than the predecessors, and if they follow industry trends they'll only keep on downsizing everything

So if it isn't a freeform open-world RPG - regardless of whether that is relevant to the style of game or the story - its not a good game in your eyes?

Well said;).

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. How did you know?

Then go and play GTA.

[Dreadwing 67]

I skipped to tell you that you are a complete idiot when you brought call of duty up. You fail, you are invalid in the greater scheme of things, goodbye.

[DeathDragon185]

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

I skipped to tell you that you are a complete idiot when you brought call of duty up. You fail, you are invalid in the greater scheme of things, goodbye.

are you talking to me or OP?

[CptBomBom00]

OP, Trolling can be an art form, but only if keyboard is in hands of master not apprentice, and sadly you not even a novice.

[TomY90]

Sasie wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

They don't make RPG's and the traditional RPG is dying off slowly anyway, they are nowadays become a mix of games for instance mass effect is an Action RPG which they said that whilst developing mass effect 1.

Skyrim and the fallout series is not true RPG either they are now becoming adventure games with RPG mixed with it, deus ex is the same as well.

I disagree strongly with the claim that Fallout New Vegas would be an adveture with RPG elements instead of a RPG. As for the topic at hand and Bioware their games are still RPG's but they are not traditional ones, they are
all action-RPG's these days. A better question I think would be to ask when Bioware is going to admit they really want to make a fullblown action game and attempt it for the first time. Sadly their combat isn't good enough for it but it's the only way they ever will get those sales they desire I imagine.

I am sorry to say this but it is an adventure game with RPG elements considering you do not actually do that much decision making you do a lot of talking yes but not many of those decisions have an enormous impact on the actual game. Most of the time you are just aimlessly wandering, which is not an RPG thats a Sand-box Adventure game with RPG elements. (no offence)

[tetrisblock4x1]

Doesn't this forum have more important things to talk about like the taste of Talis sweat glands?

[DeathDragon185]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Doesn't this forum have more important things to talk about like the taste of Talis sweat glands?

then why make this thread? I know you are trolling but let's see you talk your way out of this.

[Dreadwing 67]

DeathDragon185 wrote...

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

I skipped to tell you that you are a complete idiot when you brought call of duty up. You fail, you are invalid in the greater scheme of things, goodbye.

are you talking to me or OP?

OP....once he said that I didn't read anything else

[CptBomBom00]

DeathDragon185 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Doesn't this forum have more important things to talk about like the taste of Talis sweat glands?

then why make this thread? I know you are trolling but let's see you talk your way out of this.

Pure Evil my man:devil::devil::devil:, AH I wish GMagnum was here.

[Someone With Mass]

byzantine horse wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

When the difference between Call of Duty and Mass Effect become more distinguishable.

I can distinguish it for you.

One is a fps, one is a tps.

One is a cinematic experience with no choices what so ever, the other is a cinematic experience with an abundance of choices.

And so on.


Or does it break your immersion that Shepard doesn't run around in armor with several different colors and that they are all stolen from enemies he has recently killed? Oh and let's not forget Shephard can't start with cool guns he has to begin with a plastic waterpistol because that is what is a good RPG to your kind. Oh and let's not forget that Shpehard should be horrible at shooting with guns as well because if he is good at it you can't spend points to improve his gun profficiency. 

This is what RPG is to some of you, and sure you might enjoy those more than Bioware's current stapel of RPGs but if you do play them instead. Simple as that.

Let's not forget that he should only be killing pests like rats or gas bags until he reaches a certain level.

I personally think it's boring and bad when everyone tells me that my character is a badass, yet I can probably do better than him/her. Or when it takes like ten levels to be remotely efficient with certain weapons.

[Alex_SM]

bleetman wrote...

I mean, sure, I could headcanon an elaborate backstory for my mute soldier in Call of Duty or whatever, but given that my only interaction within the game involves 'use gun on man', it becomes utterly irrelevant to do so. You're little more than an observer to the actual story and/or events. I can't influence them or how my character responds to them in any meaningful way.

That's because Call of Duty doesn't care about player character. 

But if Call of Duty 87 allows to choose some backstory, adds dialogue and voice acting to the character, and a few picks, it still wouldn't ben an RPG (It would probably be a more interesting game than COD is nowadays, but that's anothet topic).

I can (and do) make up headcanon for my Shepards, my Hawkes, or my Wardens. I can decide what they think and feel about various topics. I can decide what happened to them before the game introduced them, how that would affect their decisions afterwards. More importantly, whilst Mass Effect doesn't allow total freedom of choice - I am, after all, always going to play an Alliance commander who ends up working for Cerberus, no matter how much I might want to not do any of those things - and thus I can't decide everything about everything, I'm given plenty of opportunity to work whatever personality I've conjured for my characters into the actual story and have it matter. I've plenty of scope to define who I'm playing as, and if I choose to do so, I've room to make that actual matter.

If I spend 40~ hours playing a character of joint creation between myself and the game, making narrative choices and reacting to events as I see fit within a predominatly story driven experience, yes. I'm going to call that an RPG. Whether or not I put points into Gymnastics or Lumberjacking is effectively transitory as far as I'm concerned.

The point is that the're are not really narrative choices, but cosmethic choices. We still have to see ME3, but nowadays we haven't seen any choice having any impact on story. It's all an ilussion. 

And the point is not about total freedom, but having some. The game at the end allows near to zero freedom. It just creates a feeling of freedom that quickly vanishes while replaying. 

It's a great game, but quite far from what I consider an RPG. I'm not asking for the freedom of a PnP RPG, because that's impossible for a computer game, but I would like to have some freedom or at least some different paths within the same story frame. 

[Someone With Mass]

Savber100 wrote...

*shrugs*

Bioware has always been a game developer. The label of RPG developer was set by people who were ignorant enough to believe that Bioware would stay in a single genre.

So big deal... I don't care if Bioware makes good RPGs as long as they make good games.

I have yet to see a reason why one should care about the label at all too.

Is it so RPG elitists can feel good about themselves and "superior" to everyone else when they buy those games, or what?

[Dreadwing 67]

@Alex_SM, it's hard to have game changing choices that create an entirely different experience in the game 2 of 3. Granted no choice might affect the story, as you probably want and hope it might, but everything in the universe will guaranteed be different based on what you have done.

Modifié par Dreadwing 67, 03 décembre 2011 - 02:45 .

[bleetman]

@Alex_SM

I'd say Call of Duty would have to utterly re-design itself to accommodate even the most basic aspects of player agency, but that's probably a different issue. You couldn't just slap a talking character and a few conversation options onto the game and call it an RPG, no.

At any rate, I'd have to disagree. I've generally felt that Mass Effect games handle decision making in such a way as to give me a lot of influence over what takes place. You don't ever have complete freedom, no. But then, it's never been a perogative of any remotely recent Bioware games. They have stories, and you're expected to follow them. I'm not saying it's perfectly handled (why am I working for Cerberus exactly?), but I've generally felt like I had enough room to direct things to my own liking, that I'm the one driving the narrative. I've never played Mass Effect and felt like an observer.

But then, I don't adopt the idea that consequences only matter if they result in radically different results. Which so far they haven't, no. I wouldn't try and argue they ever have. But I've still plenty of room to craft my experience in such a way that it becomes something that feels partly of my own creation. I've scope to influence things in certain directions, even if the end result is the same. It's an illusion, sure, but it's one I've found mostly convincing enough that I just don't care.

Alternatively, this is the sort of thing I'm more inclined to agree with. Relating to Dragon Age 2, but it applies equally here, I'd say:

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Just curious, does having a "choice" imply that based on the decision, you'll have a unique outcome? Sometimes, in a situation with two choices, you may wind up at the same outcome, but it's the journey there that is different and significant. Does this diminish the choice, or make it illusory? I don't think so. And that may simply be my opinion.

For example, if I am deciding what to have for dinner, I can go with either Italian food or Japanese. Those are the two restaurant options before me. I wind up choosing Japanese, have a wonderful meal and leave the restaurant full. Now, had I picked Italian, I might have achieved the same result - a wonderful meal and the state of fullness. But my sensory experience would be different. The people I meet, see or eavesdrop on in the restaurant would be different. Two choices, same outcome, but different paths to get there.

Larius and Janeka aren't food, no. And that example may not be best in the grand scheme, but I think that choice was evident in Legacy. The path you pick is indicative of the Hawke you are playing - where your sympathies lie, where your moral compass is directed, etc.

Just because I reach the same end doesn't make the journey a linear one, or any choices I've made meaningless.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 décembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[DiebytheSword]

As a player of tabletop RPGs like D&D, its pretty easy to look at any CRPG, and I mean any, and chuckle at the label RPG. If OP doesn't think bioware games are RPGs, that's fine, it's the OPs opinion, and I vehemently disagree. I can escape to a role in it, thus its an RPG for me. There are choices and outcomes, stories I enjoy, and payoffs for my time, thus what I choose to label it is irrelevant.

Because pretty much every CRPG I can play falls short of my expectations of a tabletop game, and always will.

[Alex_SM]

Some times making a different choice doesn't even change the answer you get from the npc.

I feel everything is exactly the same playing full paragon, full renegade or something in between. The only difference is having blue "win" lines or red "win" lines. The same for playing as Soldier, Vanguard or whatever. Gameplay is exactly the same: full direct combat. No way to face missions in a different way (that already happened in DA or Baldur's Gate).

Anyone remembers System Shock 2? If you were an Engineer then the gameplay was radically different from a soldier gameplay, at least you were allowed to find alternative routes by hacking doors and security systems.

Here you can't even interrupt conversations and start shooting, the game just doesn't even gives that simple choice.

ME games are great, bur their role playing and decision making aspects are quite limited. It builds a great feeling the first time, but it's an illusion, and quickly vanishes.

[xentar]

TomY90 wrote...

Best example around is Final Fantasy franchise as evidence that the traditional RPG is dying off because they are losing fans and sales and having to completely change the franchise to survive to the change in what people want from RPG's (they are adding a dialogue system now for instance) and slowly moving towards a Dragon Age style of gameplay. rather than the pokemon style of gameplay

Well, the so called JRPGs are not really RPGs anyway (rather, they are tactical story-driven adventure games), so, no wonder...

[Zjarcal]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

When the difference between Call of Duty and Mass Effect become more distinguishable.

Lol... ok people, nothing to see here, move along. Or not, I guess we can keep laughing at the OP's posts.

[Varen Spectre]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

When will Bioware admit that they don't make RPGs?

Do they have to? What would be the point of such statement? Besides, they don't seem to insist on describing themselves as RPG developer anyway.

With statements like:

"To be honest, I don’t know. I never consider myself an RPG developer, and I don’t really worry about traditional genre conventions other than our own goals for making a great game. Typically our goals - creating interactive story, compelling progression, intense combat, and exploration -result in games that are classified as RPGs. But my intention is always to make the best possible story-driven games, and for me and my team, the next great design that we’re excited about is what we’re doing with ME3."  from Casey Hudson 

or

“RPGs are and always have been our bread and butter, our heart is there, but at the same time I think – well, we had the RPG panel breakfast at GDC yesterday – and what was interesting about that was that we had the conversation about ‘what is an RPG’ and it’s a blend. The genres are blending right now, you’re getting lots and lots of progression and RPG elements in shooters – online persistence and so on,” ... “It’s funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is – well, it’s not specifically irrelevant, but it’s becoming less relevant in and of itself. It’s more a function of ‘hey, this game has a great story’. For us having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff.”  from Greg Zeschuk  himself,

it's quite obvious, that they don't want to be limited in any shape or form by genre classifications and don't worry about how their games will be classified. So, such statement seem to be redundant to me.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Thats what Bioware does - they create stories and then choose gameplay mechanics that best serve that story, rather than choosing gameplay mechanics based on genre. I wish all developers were like this with game design - using mechanics that are suited to that individual game as opposed to using mechanics just for the sake of calling it a shooter or an RPG, which in the end are just arbitrary titles.

Mmm, while I absolutely agree with your main point, I am kind of perplexed by the way you worded it - do you mean, that not all developers pick the game mechanics for their games according to what they think, that would be beneficial for their games?  Are there (really) some developers, who add features to their games just so that they can classify them as particular genres?

Well, it does not seem plausible to me, but if so, could you please give me some examples? 

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 03 décembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...
*Dingdingdingdingdingdingding* Congratulations, you answered the Final Question correctly! Where do you want your 12 foot solid gold statue made in your image?

No, thanks. I prefer cash. 

[naledgeborn]

Sighs... I don't care. **** a title or genre. If it's a good game so be it. If the game is not for me or *you* then don't pick it up. Simple.

[DCarter]

jreezy wrote...

DCarter wrote...
 I agree but i still wish people would stop describing mass effect 2 as an RPG because it isn't. Mass effect 1 they can get away with. 

Why they can't get away with it in regards to Mass Effect 2 is very puzzling.

Because ME2's gameplay is mostly third person shooter. Level ups and special abilities don't really change that the core is hiding behind cover and shooting stuff in the face. Mass Effect one was more stat driven  and felt more like an RPG without lock on targeting than a shooter. 

My arguement is pure semantics, i'm not trying to say either style is better. You can find level based progression, open world exploration, and heavy story telling and character focus in a multitude of genres now. So what seperates and RPG from other genres is the core combat/gameplay mechanics which i would define as statistic driven with less emphasis on real time actions.

Modifié par DCarter, 03 décembre 2011 - 03:48 .