408 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Typically I think this has more to do with quality vs. quantity. If everyone's that way in the game, it's more likely to be poorly done, as opposed to one or two good bi choices.

And I've certainly no problem with non-romancables.

It has nothing to do with that.

You all are okay that the LIs lack any preferences in regards to appearance, morality, personality, race, class, etc.  That doesn't cheapen the romances one bit.

But when they do this with gender it's wrong?  It's cheap?

I can see why that's insulting.

[mauro2222]

jlb524 wrote...

Leliana only hints at sleeping with men as part of her job (so she doesn't have to kill them).  That doesn't make her attracted to men in any way.  There's no clear indication that she desires men physically or romantically.

I'm not so sure about that, she fell in love of my warden.

Edit: It was male.

Modifié par mauro2222, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[AdmiralCheez]

someone else wrote...

So a) that wasn't what I was saying - which i dont think you accused me of btw and which don't intend to defend - but I do think its something of a cop-out dramatically for the writers rather than making characters who are committed hetero or homosexuals of either gender - it is "cheap" in the $$ sense to write bi-s rather than clearly differentiate the characters - actually the only one in the series is good old Mordin, who makes it clear Shep (of either flavor) is not his cup of meat.

I wasn't directing it at you.  And no, it's not cheap writing-wise because the same amount of LIs would have to be written -- the only difference is that the player doesn't have to pick the right gender in order to pursue a romance.

I'm sure people would be annoyed if Miranda only romanced blonde engineers with a certain amount of facial hair.

I have nothing against straight, gay, or uninterested characters, but seriously, are you going to say that the character who tells you what his favorite food is should be considered more defined than the one that doesn't?  Sexuality is one character trait, one that doesn't even need to be defined to have a good character.  In the end, doing so only restricts content.  Sorry, only sentinels get to play this level.

[CroGamer002]

jlb524 wrote...

Leliana only hints at sleeping with men as part of her job (so she doesn't have to kill them).  That doesn't make her attracted to men in any way.  There's no clear indication that she desires men physically or romantically.

So, Leliana is a bad bisexual and Zevran is a good bisexaul.  

Then why does she likes male Warden's flirting?


And also asks Alistair what's male Wardin talking about her to him( though Alistair was just teasing her about that).

[AdmiralCheez]

jlb524 wrote...

It has nothing to do with that.

You all are okay that the LIs lack any preferences in regards to appearance, morality, personality, race, class, etc.  That doesn't cheapen the romances one bit.

But when they do this with gender it's wrong?  It's cheap?

I can see why that's insulting.

This.

Ambi, babe, you've made sweeping generalizations about lesbians and femininity before, too.

This makes me mad.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[jlb524]

mauro2222 wrote...

I'm not so sure about that, she fell in love of my warden.

Edit: It was male.

Right...you had to play male to see it.

The original claim is that Leliana was a 'good' bisexual character while someone from DA2 (like, say Merrill) was not.  By 'good' I assume they mean that the bisexual character shows tendencies towards both men and women regardless of the PC romancing them.  While, with the 'bad bisexuals' in DA2, you had to romance them to see their 'bisexual' side...which is 'bad'.

strive wrote...
Uh most characters do have a base set of beliefs. The PC can influence them though. Garrus believes in justice. You go through a mission about Dr Saelon you can handle the situation how you want regardless of Garrus' approval. However his idea of justice is still there in Mass Effect 2, since you know he wants Sidonis dead. You can influence his choice again, but you can't decide what he thinks he ultimately spares Sidonis or kills him.. Appearance? That is just a simply RPG mechanic of min/maxing if you're talking about the PC picking what outfit they wear.

Characters do have a set of beliefs of course...the point is that they will still romance a Shepard that does things that go against their beliefs....all you have to do is press the right option at the right time.  That's 'cheap'.

By appearance, I mean like...Miranda will still date Ugly Shepard.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

ARGH, I hate being drawn back in.

I DO think that LI's with different preferences on those things make it a whole lot better; in fact, i have a thread titled "Impressionable Squadmates" that talks about that: squadmates who have different beliefs than you, whether it be Kaidan with a renegade anti-alien Femshep, or Morrigan's extremely cynical views on love.

So then you shouldn't be able to romance them period (if your beliefs don't match up).

But if BW won't do this (as it would take lots of effort) and they continue to go the 'generic' route, how can you justify them continuing to limit romances based solely on gender?

Modifié par jlb524, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:57 .

[mauro2222]

kiti.the.great wrote...

'galaxy at war' is a strange moment for such unexpected coming out, just sayin

Quite the opposite.

[AngelicMachinery]

kiti.the.great wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

kiti.the.great wrote...

i do not support most of proposed s/s romances for ME3 because i do not support sudden personality shifts ("ok shepard, i was straight but right now i'm bi")

Just for the record, nobody... NOBODY says that they're straight.

'galaxy at war' is a strange moment for such unexpected coming out, just sayin

Sure it's not thanksgiving dinner or anything,  but,  there's no good or badtime for coming out.  You do it when the time is right.  When everything is falling down and robot cthulhu comes a callin,  you might want the comfort of that one special someone who'm you never had the guts to persue.

[goofyomnivore]

Leliana only hints at sleeping with men as part of her job (so she doesn't have to kill them). That doesn't make her attracted to men in any way. There's no clear indication that she desires men physically or romantically.

She banters with Zevran about sex and men, so the physical part could be true.

Modifié par strive, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[Harmless Citizen]

You know, I am personally offended by all this bi = cheap nonsense.

Seriously, it's not like I'm cheap and sleazy just because I can fall in love with/be attracted to either gender.

God damn it, you people.

I apologise. But I didn't mean bisexuality in itself. I suppose it would be more accurate to call it "single-target sexuality," since in a system like DAII's, party members seem to fall prey to the PC's charm and/or fine gams. It seems like a bit of a writing shortcut to me (albeit an acceptable one, if it broadens the player's selection), as much of one as the fact that squad mates will worship the ground you walk on even if you happen to be a giant jerkarse who pushes people out of windows and punches monkeys for the lulz.

Being able to get just about anyone to fall down at your feet just reinforces the fact that BW PCs are often giant Jesus-mode sues (if enjoyable ones). But hell. It doesn't really matter to me either way.

[mauro2222]

jlb524 wrote...

Right...you had to play male to see it.

The original claim is that Leliana was a 'good' bisexual character while someone from DA2 (like, say Merrill) was not.  By 'good' I assume they mean that the bisexual character shows tendencies towards both men and women regardless of the PC romancing them.  While, with the 'bad bisexuals' in DA2, you had to romance them to see their 'bisexual' side...which is 'bad'.

Oh! I get it...

Bad Bi: sexual attraction towards same sex - considers romantic relationships with same sex and opposite sex.

Good Bi: sexual attraction towards both sexes - considers romantic relationships with both.

Well, something like that. At least this is what I understood.

[jlb524]

strive wrote...
She banters with Zevran about sex and men, so the physical part could be true.

Could be?

Or not.

mauro2222 wrote...

Oh! I get it...

Bad Bi: sexual attraction towards same sex - considers romantic relationships with same sex and opposite sex.

Good Bi: sexual attraction towards both sexes - considers romantic relationships with both.

Well, something like that. At least this is what I understood.

I think it's more like:

Good bisexual:  shows attraction towards both sexes regardless of PC's gender or romance status.  For example, Isabela (though she's way heavy towards the male side).

Bad bisexual:  Well...doesn't do what the 'good' bisexual does.  Either showing attraction to only one gender or only shows attraction to the PC.  Ex:  Merriill or Fenris from DA2

Basically, if you want to be a good bisexual character, you have to make it SO OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE INTO BOTH GENDERS OMG!

Modifié par jlb524, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[goofyomnivore]

Characters do have a set of beliefs of course...the point is that they will still romance a Shepard that does things that go against their beliefs....all you have to do is press the right option at the right time. That's 'cheap'.

By appearance, I mean like...Miranda will still date Ugly Shepard.

Those issues aren't romance exclusive. Why doesn't Samara curb stomp Zaeed for putting refinery workers in danger. Why doesn't Wynne rat you out for being a blood mage? Cut content and too many details to account for. I see your point though might as well extend it into the romances. But I'd rather they add those details in than just expand the status quo everywhere else.

[bas_kon]

I lol'd A LOT reading the OP's post, I bet he doesn't even have a fem shep. He's just another BRO straight teen guy in disguise trying desesperately to bash gay male shep... just lame lol

[jlb524]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
To be fair, Tali won't romance a Shepard who hands over the evidence incriminating her father, and Anders won't romance a Hawke that deals with a demon. Agreed, though, these situations are far too infrequent.

Tali's thing has more to do with the loyalty mechanic of ME2.

She'll still romance a Shepard who was an ass to her in ME1 and who has done things to support the geth.  Which makes NO SENSE.  

But it's kewl...nothing shady or cheap going on here.

strive wrote...
Those issues aren't romance exclusive. Why doesn't Samara curb stomp Zaeed for putting refinery workers in danger. Why doesn't Wynne rat you out for being a blood mage? Cut content and too many details to account for. I see your point though might as well extend it into the romances. But I'd rather they add those details in than just expand the status quo everywhere else.

Of course.  These are greater issues.

But why make such a fuss out of it when we start talking about making all LIs open to all genders?

What if they don't plan on adding those details to romances?  Then is it still okay to limit based only on gender?

Modifié par jlb524, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[JamieCOTC]

Mesina2 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Asari are not woman and have no vagina.  In fact they don’t have anything below the waist. They just explode after 1000 years of holding it all in.

Asari do have vagina. Babies came out from somewhere AND replay LotSB.

They are A mono-gender race. Which means they have 1 sex and they're definitely not males.



Male and female just doesn't have meaning for Asari.
That's it.



Even if that's not the case, they look like a woman!
Which means that if human female has sexual attraction to Asari, she is lesbian or bisexual.

"That was a joke." 

[goofyomnivore]

Could be?

Or not.

Up to the PCs interpretation. I imagine hardened Leliana is serious since she has no problem having a foursome with Alistair, Isabela and the Warden.

Modifié par strive, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Random Nobody wrote...

I apologise. But I didn't mean bisexuality in itself. I suppose it would be more accurate to call it "single-target sexuality," since in a system like DAII's, party members seem to fall prey to the PC's charm and/or fine gams. It seems like a bit of a writing shortcut to me (albeit an acceptable one, if it broadens the player's selection), as much of one as the fact that squad mates will worship the ground you walk on even if you happen to be a giant jerkarse who pushes people out of windows and punches monkeys for the lulz.

Being able to get just about anyone to fall down at your feet just reinforces the fact that BW PCs are often giant Jesus-mode sues (if enjoyable ones). But hell. It doesn't really matter to me either way.

Then the problem is that squadmates too easily fall for/agree with the PC.

Tali's a clear example of this - I can be a complete jerk to her two games in a row, but so long as I do her one small favor and happen to have a dick, she says she's been crushing on me the whole time, secretly, even though I was an abusive butthole up until five minutes ago.

I think this comes less out of writer laziness and more out of the assumption that people who are jerks to a character usually won't bother romancing them.  Usually.  But still, in a world of binary, black-and-white gender/sexuality assumptions, I'm a little sick of getting boxblocked all the damn time.  I mean, at least I had Liara, but damn it, I want Ash and Tali.

[Sealy]

Thane is just pity sex? *grumbles* It's a shame your shep would sleep with him... or anyone, out of pity.

I don't mind the simplicity of actually getting the romances. Mostly cause the basic talking can be such a mine field.

[jlb524]

strive wrote...
Up to the PCs interpretation. I imagine hardened Leliana is serious since she has no problem having a foursome with Alistair, Isabela and the Warden.

But it's not 'obvious' that she's into men.

Which makes her a bad bisexual!

*smacks Leliana*

[goofyomnivore]

But it's not 'obvious' that she's into men.

?? What isn't obvious? Her orientation? She states interest/attraction to both genders either to the Warden or NPCs. Does she need to make an announcement of it to the party at camp for it to be obvious?

Modifié par strive, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:10 .