580 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

lucidfox wrote...

To be frank, I never saw the Collector plot as being central to ME2.

ME2 is about fleshing out the world, showing the sides of it that were only mentioned in passing in ME1, during the frantic race against the clock - and planting the seeds for ME3. It's the calm between two storms. ME2 also, more than ME1, shows us the lives of the ordinary, unimportant denizens of the galaxy.

Pretty much this.

ME1 shows us all the good stuff of the galaxy - the Council, the Citadel. Things like the Genophage and the Quarian-Geth war are little more than codex entries. The Reapers are given no motive and are essentially evil 'just because'.

ME2 then expands on the darker side of the galaxy. Cerberus, Omega, the Terminus systems, the Krogan, the Quarian-Geth war, the Genophage. It also greatly expands on the villains. The Geth are no longer generic evil robots - they now have factions, we understand their 'society' and way of thinking much more. The Reapers are no longer just evil for the sake of it - we know have an understanding of their reasonings and their motives. 

Both games merely explore the ME universe - the Reapers don't actually play a large role in either of them. ME1 is about you chasing down a rogue Spectre and his army of Geth - Sovereign doesn't come into play until near the end. Likewise, ME2 is about assembling a team to fight the Collectors but actually fighting the Reapers - through the Collectors - only happens every now and again. 

In both games the Reapers are just a background threat occasionally brought foward for a bit. 

ME1 paints us a broad overview of the ME universe.
ME2 goes into the detail and the nitty-gritty much more.

However, both games are merely building up to the galactic war. Niehter of them actually that essential - stopping Sovereign merely delayed the Reapers by a few years, and destroying the Human Reaper just meant that the Reapers' plans for humanity were set back. In the grand scheme of things, we don't actually achieve all that much in either game. Really, all we've done is flesh out the universe and set up some of the pieces. The story will mean so much more to those of us that have experienced the journey leading to ME3, but you don't to experience the journey to enjoy the destination - the destination here being the galactic war which was always going to be the focal point of this series and story.

But if you want a reason as to why ME2 matters think of it this way - without ME2 we would have no clue as to what the Reapers' motives are. Plus, we also prevented (or perhaps only delayed) the construction of a new Reaper, meaning that the Reapers will have to harvest Earth as opposed to just destroying it straight away. In ME2 we basically bought some time for humanity and the galaxy, which is pretty much what we did in ME1.

[Andorfiend]

As part of the structure of the trilogy ME 2 is really weird.

In ME 1 we learn about the universe, the races, the galactic cycle of extinction. We learn that the cycle is closing again and we discover how and why. We learn we have a tiny, slim chance at survival, bequeathed to us at great sacrifice by the cycles last victims, the Protheans. And we destroy Sovereign, thereby defeating the Reapers 'Plan A'. And of course it's worth noting that Sovereign himself was on 'Plan C' at that point. (Plan A: beep the Keepers. Plan B: Rachni. Plan C: Geth Heretics.) We can also engage in some side quests to learn about a bunch of douchebags called Cerberus.

In ME 2 we defeat the Collectors. We discover that the Reapers are in fact organic/synthetic hybrids, sort of a racial collectivist cyborg. We discover that they want to uplift humanity into Reaperhood and that for some reason not all sentient races are upliftable. The Protheans weren't. We do not learn how or if the Collectors were furthering the return of the Reapers. In that sense the entire mission is a mere distraction from the main threat. Especially since destroying the collectors does nothing to weaken the Reapers in any material sense, given that any individual Reaper is far more powerfull than all the collectors put together, and that all the Collector tech, like the seeker swarms, is just hand-me-down Reaper tech.  We can also do a bunch of side quests that will set us up to build the Grand Alliance in ME 3. We can win Geth favor, Help the Quarian Flotilla, help empower Wrex to lead the Krogans and help cure the Genophage, We can defeat a corrupt ex-cop in the Citidel, and we can learn a whole bunch more about what douchebags Cerberus are. - But ALL of that is optional side quest material.

I dunno, it really does feel like they somehow stumbled their way through ME 2, without stopping to consider how it effected ME 3. Giving the daunting nature of what they face in ME 3, that just seems bizzarre.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 04 décembre 2011 - 03:01 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

turian-rebellion wrote...

To me, except from stopping the collectors, finding out that collectors are protheans, and building a relationship with Cerberus, the point of mass effect 2 was to build a great team for when the reapers come. This is why your getting people like thane, the ultimate assassin, grunt, the perfect krogan, and mordin, the smartest salarian. 

Actually OP, the point of recruiting those squadmates was to go on the SM and stop the collectors. Which you did...

That said, I agree the game just fills like a bunch of filler.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Andorfiend wrote...

As part of the structure of the trilogy ME 2 is really weird.

In ME 1 we learn about the universe, the races, the galactic cycle of extinction. We learn that the cycle is closing again and we discover how and why. We learn we have a tiny, slim chance at survival, bequeathed to us at great sacrifice by the cycles last victims, the Protheans. And we destroy Sovereign, thereby defeating the Reapers 'Plan A'. And of course it's worth noting that Sovereign himself was on 'Plan C' at that point. (Plan A: beep the Keepers. Plan B: Rachni. Plan C: Geth Heretics.) We can also engage in some side quests to learn about a bunch of douchebags called Cerberus.

In ME 2 we defeat the Collectors. We discover that the Reapers are in fact organic/synthetic hybrids, sort of a racial collectivist cyborg. We discover that they want to uplift humanity into Reaperhood and that for some reason not all sentient races are upliftable. The Protheans weren't. We do not learn how or if the Collectors were furthering the return of the Reapers. In that sense the entire mission is a mere distraction from the main threat. Especially since destroying the collectors does nothing to weaken the Reapers in any material sense, given that any individual Reaper is far more powerfull than all the collectors put together, and that all the Collector tech, like the seeker swarms, is just hand-me-down Reaper tech.  We can also do a bunch of side quests that will set us up to build the Grand Alliance in ME 3. We can win Geth favor, Help the Quarian Flotilla, help empower Wrex to lead the Krogans and help cure the Genophage, We can defeat a corrupt ex-cop in the Citidel, and we can learn a whole bunch more about what douchebags Cerberus are. - But ALL of that is optional side quest material.

I dunno, it really does feel like they somehow stumbled their way through ME 2, without stopping to consider how it effected ME 3. Giving the daunting nature of what they face in ME 3, that just seems bizzarre.

Quite simple... different writers. Drew to Mac. 

[111987]

iakus wrote...

You only learn about the uploading procedure from a specific conversation option with Legion that you can only get if you let your crew die

Such important revelations should not be so deeply hidden

Regardless, even without that direct confirmation, it is heavily implied by both the Collector Base and Derelict Reaper. In the DR, the minds of the research staff begin 'melding' together (having the same memories), and in the CB you see humans being processed into something. Clearly they didn't just needed DNA, because if they did they could just clone it all.

[jasonsantanna]

People are missing the point and complaining . . . why is this . . . why is that . . . you have to remember ME is much more than just the games now . . . I was reading another forum about the gamers who let TIM have the collector base vs those who didn't. . . to sum it up it referred to the use of the tech . . . if you blew it up TIM got nothing out of it . . . but they miss the boat like I think a lot of ppl are . . . remember the comic books and novels are meant to fill in a lot of history and plot points that can't or didn't make it into the games or DLC, as far as the forum I mentioned earlier , one of the comic books fills in the points that even if the base is destroyed TIM uses the reaper iff to enter the O4R to gain what tech could be salvaged. . . just like this forum , I believe it was the founders of BW who said in an interview that ME was always to be a Trilogy and that its a ME2 is bridge between the 1st and 3rd, also keep in mind that a lot of things that may have been written for the original game , like Cerberus role may have been cut out for varies reasons . . . budget , dead lines or rewrites . . . all that could have be decided to be put into ME2 instead,.
Its also been stated that a cool Citadel mission that never made it to the 1st or 2nd game is making its way into the 3rd, so my point to sum this up is you cant just limit your view of the universe to just the game, the other components of the franchise is meant to flesh out the whole story and universe.

[ratzerman]

Ticktank wrote...

The purpose of ME2 is to have sex with Tali.

And Garrus.

Oh, and to make everyone hate the VS.

Modifié par ratzerman, 04 décembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Michel1986]

squee365 wrote...

Also, let us not forget ME2 introduced us to the Illusive Man.

That is not the point of mass effect 2, the point is to get a elite team that you need in me3.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Michel1986 wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Also, let us not forget ME2 introduced us to the Illusive Man.

That is not the point of mass effect 2, the point is to get a elite team that you need in me3.

Um... nooooo...

they say it in the game. It's to recruit a badass team to journey through the Omega 4 relay and stop the collectors.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

ratzerman wrote...

Ticktank wrote...

The purpose of ME2 is to have sex with Tali.

And Garrus.

Oh, and to make everyone hate the VS.

Oh yes,

I forgot about that! ^ That too!

Thanks Ratz. 

[The Spamming Troll]

whose the guy that only needs tweets from devs for story line confirmation 1 year after release???

that made me laugh.

"make sure everyone who plays the game gets the posty note from the devs tweet about there being more then one collector ship at the collector base. "

[Candidate 88766]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

whose the guy that only needs tweets from devs for story line confirmation 1 year after release???

that made me laugh.

"make sure everyone who plays the game gets the posty note from the devs tweet about there being more then one collector ship at the collector base. "

The game itself actually has a line confirming multiple Collector ships, but I'm guessing you missed it. Thats why I can accept the tweet as canon - the game itself has already said it.

Around 2.15

EDI: 'Shepard. I have compared the ship's EM signature to known Collector profiles. It is the vessel you encountered on Horizon.'

I never said I only need dev tweets for story confirmation - if a tweet from the story's lead writer confirms something known or implied by the game then I can accept that as canon. If other people want to dismiss tweets because they didn't pay attention in the game then that's their business.

If Mac came out and tweeted something that wasn't indicated anywhere in the game then it would be a bit more of a stretch to believe. But then again this isn't excatly gospel - something story related that comes directly from the lead writer is good enough for me, unless it contradicts what is already in the game. Seeing as this has never happened I'm more than happy to believe what the lead writer has to say about the story. Seems pretty daft not to, but to each their own.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[Troika0]

I don't think you can really defend ME2 on the grounds that it fleshes out the universe or various subplots because it really doesn't.

You know as much about Cerberus and the Illusive man at the beginning of the game as you do at the end. Nothing about their motives or aims are revealed and it doesn't matter that they weren't since they're just going to be Reaper pawns in the third game anyway.

The genophage and Geth-Quarian war are mentioned but are only tangentially and superficially related to anything you actually do within the game. Nothing you do fleshes out or progresses these two subplots in anyway; even the decision at the end of Mordin's loyalty mission is completely irrelevant to the plot of ME3.

And finally, you do not learn anything about the Reapers motives. Sure, you find out that they're blendering people for the purposes of creating a reaper, but why they're doing this is never revealed. The writers, by way of Kenson in Arrival, even take the time to tell you--again--how unknowable the reapers are (which, I don't know, kind of left me feeling like they hadn't actually come up with one yet).

So no, nothing that took place in the second game was substantial enough to defy single sentence summarisation nor was any of it explicitly relevant to the plot to the final act anyway.

[Candidate 88766]

Troika0 wrote...

And finally, you do not learn anything about the Reapers motives. Sure, you find out that they're blendering people for the purposes of creating a reaper, but why they're doing this is never revealed.

You just said the reason right there - to create new Reapers. Thats the point of the Cycle - to create new Reapers. Why do they need more Reapers? Its either their method of reproduction or maybe they just want to get stronger with each Cycle, but you can't say you don't learn the Reapers' motives and then state the Reapers' motives. Its a massive contradiction.

Their goal is to make more Reapers. We didn't know that before ME1, and ME2 not only explained what the Reapers' motives are but also how they go about it - by harvesting and 'uploading' species. We also learn what Reapers actually are. They're no longer just massive sentient spaceships - ME2 explained that they are a mixture of organic and inorganic stuff within a shell that takes on the Reaper appearance we know. And although you had to put some effort into finding it out, the game also exlplains that a Reaper is billions of uploaded minds working in tandem - an AI made up of organic minds.

After ME2 we actually know a lot about the Reapers. I agree with other people that ME2 should've introduced, or at least hinted, at a way of actually beating them, but saying it introduced nothing new to the Reaper plot is wrong.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

[Candidate 88766]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

Ah, okay. I'm not planning on reading it regardless of how out of date it is, so I'd appreciate it if people don't spoil this.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

Ah, okay. I'm not planning on reading it regardless of how out of date it is, so I'd appreciate it if people don't spoil this.

Out of date. lol

[Candidate 88766]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

Ah, okay. I'm not planning on reading it regardless of how out of date it is, so I'd appreciate it if people don't spoil this.

Out of date. lol

Not everything in it is going to be out of date. Some things probably are, and I doubt that the script shows the impact of preiouvs choices, or choices made within the game, but even so I'd appreciate the lack of spoilers to continue.

If the people that've read the script feel I'm wrong and that based on that ME2 doesn't play a huge role, then I can't really refute that. As it is, I feel that ME2 has enough potential ties into ME3 to make it as significant as ME1. 

[Troika0]

Fair enough, I will concede the point that I was overzealous in my criticism of geth and quarian subplot. I suppose

I'll also throw them a bone on introducing Aria and Omega since they're going to be a part of the third game's story as well.

And I suppose Liara going from a bookish archaeologist to the galaxy's premier information broker in only a few years would also be several orders of magnitude more absurd than her going from a bookish archaeologist to one of Illium's most respected information broker.

[Yezdigerd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

However, both games are merely building up to the galactic war. Niehter of them actually that essential - stopping Sovereign merely delayed the Reapers by a few years, and destroying the Human Reaper just meant that the Reapers' plans for humanity were set back. In the grand scheme of things, we don't actually achieve all that much in either game.

In Me1 you stopped a reaper invasion. If you hadn't we know there wouldn't have been another game. In Me2 you blow up a baby reaper, something that has no apparent impact in stopping or delaying the reapers.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

Ah, okay. I'm not planning on reading it regardless of how out of date it is, so I'd appreciate it if people don't spoil this.

Out of date. lol

Not everything in it is going to be out of date. Some things probably are, and I doubt that the script shows the impact of preiouvs choices, or choices made within the game, but even so I'd appreciate the lack of spoilers to continue.

If the people that've read the script feel I'm wrong and that based on that ME2 doesn't play a huge role, then I can't really refute that. As it is, I feel that ME2 has enough potential ties into ME3 to make it as significant as ME1. 

I wasn't saying that ME2 didn't play a role... just that the reapers' goal is not just to make more reapers. And that I find the "it's out of date" argument lolzy. 

[Candidate 88766]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Actually, it's not. Their goal is something else entirely... but you'd had to have seen the leaked script to know.

Ah, okay. I'm not planning on reading it regardless of how out of date it is, so I'd appreciate it if people don't spoil this.

Out of date. lol

Not everything in it is going to be out of date. Some things probably are, and I doubt that the script shows the impact of preiouvs choices, or choices made within the game, but even so I'd appreciate the lack of spoilers to continue.

If the people that've read the script feel I'm wrong and that based on that ME2 doesn't play a huge role, then I can't really refute that. As it is, I feel that ME2 has enough potential ties into ME3 to make it as significant as ME1. 

I wasn't saying that ME2 didn't play a role... just that the reapers' goal is not just to make more reapers. And that I find the "it's out of date" argument lolzy. 

Okay, I can't really comment on that. Without spoiling it, is their goal interesting?

And are you saying that you don't think its out of date? I personally don't, which is why I don't want to read the script.