580 réponses à ce sujet

[Troika0]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Plot bridge. ME2 is to ME1 and ME3 what Two Towers is to FoTR and RotK in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Except it's not a book.

My understanding is that the segmenting of the Lord of the Rings into a trilogy was entirely an editing decision, not by initial design.

[AlexXIV]

You explain what you don't like but not what you would have done better. I don't know what exactly you expect, I think the characters grew and you learned to know them better. I don't know about the Liara revamp either because I am actually one of those who chose her as LI. She matured a bit, but she is the same person. Still reclusive, still sort of a nerd. Still her mother's daughter. And actually I am most worried about her, of all people. Because I had the impression Bio is setting her up for some drama. Being Shadowbroker is dangerous and tempting. For example I fear that she dies or even worse Shepard has to kill her for some reason. That she may become an enemy.

I admit that Garrus is a bit lame, despite the fact that I like him. But he really has the same loyality mission in both games. And the Archangel thing was ... well ... ok. Though you learn alot more about Tali than in ME1. About her family and friends, etc. And more insight into Quarian culture and politics. Not to mention the Geth conflict.

I really think you expect too much from start. And yes you could say Bioware ripped from somewhere but everyone does. The Cylons from Battlestar Galactica were the first cyborgs. Then for example Star Trek ripped them and called them Borg. Even if a bit different. Now Bioware ripped them and called them Reapers, even if a bit different. I am sure there are other stories who also feature 'evil' cyborgs. But Bioware did not just copy paste as far as I can tell, even if they of course have been inspired by things that already existed. Like everyone who writes new stories. You can't avoid that someone who writes stories has read some beforehand.

I really think it has rather too many arcs than too little. Maybe you would have prefered to have less different storylines and therefore deeper. Like a game about just the Geth-Qunari conflict. Or a game just about the Krogans and the Genophage.

[jackyboy666]

to shoot bad guys innit

[AlexXIV]

Troika0 wrote...

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Plot bridge. ME2 is to ME1 and ME3 what Two Towers is to FoTR and RotK in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Except it's not a book.

My understanding is that the segmenting of the Lord of the Rings into a trilogy was entirely an editing decision, not by initial design.

Well it was a book. You don't face as many business decisions if you write a book, all alone. Hundrets of people worked on ME and there were a myriad things to consider.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

jackyboy666 wrote...

to shoot bad guys innit

and that's pretty much the problem with it. lol

[jackyboy666]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

jackyboy666 wrote...

to shoot bad guys innit

and that's pretty much the problem with it. lol

[onelifecrisis]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

1. EDI very specifically mentions that she is matching the Collector ship's signature with other 'known Collector vessels'. The game itself says there is more than one.

I'd forgotten that line. Okay, conceded, the collectors had more ships.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And also, I'm willing to accept something that the writer of the story directly says as canon. You can't get much more canon than that.

/facepalm

Candidate 88766 wrote...

One Collector ship had enough swarms to take out a colony, so you think that all the Collector ship swarms and the swarms on the Base would only be enough for one city?

We've seen the colonies, or some of them, and they're very, very small.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And the Collectors were only there to harvest until the Reapers arrived - they're not meant to be used for head-ons attacks.

So you agree that defeating them made no difference, given that their role - you say - would only be to clean-up after the reapers have already won?

Candidate 88766 wrote...

3. Your point is that they're all optional, which is wrong.

No. My point is that the optional parts can hardly be "the point", as that would leave the game potentially pointless. See the thread title.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

You also seem to be saying that if you don't do the loyalty missions then they won't matter.

Again, no. I'm specifically talking about the two loyalty missions that were in the post I replied to (Geth, Genophage) and I'm saying that both of them are optional and one of them doesn't actually matter in ME3 even if you did play it in ME2. Which leaves 2 DLCs and 1 optional side quest (which might not have been played, and even if it was it might not have been played paragon) as the evidence for, or example of, ME2 having a point? That's pathetic.

[Sgt Stryker]

AlexXIV wrote...

I really think you expect too much from start. And yes you could say Bioware ripped from somewhere but everyone does. The Cylons from Battlestar Galactica were the first cyborgs. Then for example Star Trek ripped them and called them Borg. Even if a bit different. Now Bioware ripped them and called them Reapers, even if a bit different. I am sure there are other stories who also feature 'evil' cyborgs. But Bioware did not just copy paste as far as I can tell, even if they of course have been inspired by things that already existed. Like everyone who writes new stories. You can't avoid that someone who writes stories has read some beforehand.

Heh, I'm sure the evil cyborgs trope didn't start with Batlestar Galactica, especially considering they were purely machines in the original 70s show.

[AlexXIV]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I really think you expect too much from start. And yes you could say Bioware ripped from somewhere but everyone does. The Cylons from Battlestar Galactica were the first cyborgs. Then for example Star Trek ripped them and called them Borg. Even if a bit different. Now Bioware ripped them and called them Reapers, even if a bit different. I am sure there are other stories who also feature 'evil' cyborgs. But Bioware did not just copy paste as far as I can tell, even if they of course have been inspired by things that already existed. Like everyone who writes new stories. You can't avoid that someone who writes stories has read some beforehand.

Heh, I'm sure the evil cyborgs trope didn't start with Batlestar Galactica, especially considering they were purely machines in the original 70s show.

Yes probably. BG was just the oldest I remembered. There might be some movies in the 40's 50's or 60's I am unaware of

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[Iakus]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

1. EDI very specifically mentions that she is matching the Collector ship's signature with other 'known Collector vessels'. The game itself says there is more than one.

I'd forgotten that line. Okay, conceded, the collectors had more ships.

TO be fair, it didn't help that we didn't see any of these other ships.  For whatever reason, it was the same cruiser Shepard kept encountering for two years.

So you agree that defeating them made no difference, given that their role - you say - would only be to clean-up after the reapers have already won?

This is what confuses me about that latest tweet.  If the Reaper wasn't going to be finished until after Arrival, why start building it?  If it was part of a larger plan to bring down humanity, that's one thing.  But in this case, it tipped the Reaper hand too early.

Does good triumph because evil is stupid?

[onelifecrisis]

iakus wrote...

If the Reaper wasn't going to be finished until after Arrival, why start building it?

I know, it's dumb, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the dev tweet - unless you think that the dev meant to imply that the HR would have been finished before the reapers arrived? That can't be right. It took the collectors two years to harvest 100k colonists with no opposition.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:16 .

[ArMedSuRViVoR]

I just hope Legion comes back in some way, shape or form. But he will no doubt have a canon death, or at least be one of the choices for a death like Ash/Alenko, if he hasn't died already...

Hold on a sec. I just thought of something. If someone like Thane died, you wont be able to do his special cure side mission in ME3. The same for any other important character that could have died.

[Candidate 88766]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

1. EDI very specifically mentions that she is matching the Collector ship's signature with other 'known Collector vessels'. The game itself says there is more than one.

I'd forgotten that line. Okay, conceded, the collectors had more ships.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And also, I'm willing to accept something that the writer of the story directly says as canon. You can't get much more canon than that.

/facepalm

Candidate 88766 wrote...

One Collector ship had enough swarms to take out a colony, so you think that all the Collector ship swarms and the swarms on the Base would only be enough for one city?

We've seen the colonies, or some of them, and they're very, very small.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And the Collectors were only there to harvest until the Reapers arrived - they're not meant to be used for head-ons attacks.

So you agree that defeating them made no difference, given that their role - you say - would only be to clean-up after the reapers have already won?

Candidate 88766 wrote...

3. Your point is that they're all optional, which is wrong.

No. My point is that the optional parts can hardly be "the point", as that would leave the game potentially pointless. See the thread title.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

You also seem to be saying that if you don't do the loyalty missions then they won't matter.

Again, no. I'm specifically talking about the two loyalty missions that were in the post I replied to (Geth, Genophage) and I'm saying that both of them are optional and one of them doesn't actually matter in ME3 even if you did play it in ME2. Which leaves 2 DLCs and 1 optional side quest (which might not have been played, and even if it was it might not have been played paragon) as the evidence for, or example of, ME2 having a point? That's pathetic.

I don't really want to have to make lots of quote boxes, so I'll try to address the stuff here.

Firstly what's wrong with accepting stuff from the lead writer as canon? He's the guy creating the story and knows what's going on better than any of us. If he said something that contradicted in-game stuff then I'd probably go with the game, but his tweets don't contradict things, they just clarify things. What's wrong with accepting these tweets as being true?

You seem to be right with the Collectors. I don't know what role the new reaper would've had if it was finished, so neither of us can say how important that was to the plot, but I guess in the grand scheme of things they actually didn't matter that much. I can concede that. If they weren't destryoed then lots of human colonies would've been lost, but destroying them didn't really impact the Reaper invasion.

Finally, I still don't really get what you're saying with the loyalty missions. Part of the point of the game is to explore aspects of the galaxy largely sidelined in the first game - the Terminus systems, the Krogan, the Quarians - partly to expand on the villains - even if we don't know their motives, we at least know now what the Reapers plans are, and the Geth are no longer a one-dimensional enemy - and partly to set in motion things that will aid the war effort in ME3. If you choose not to do that last part, then your ME2 will have a less of a point than mine did. That should go without saying - if you don't experience the full story then it won't have as much of a point to you. 

Ultimately, ME2 just expanded the universe and the characters. I freely admit that it didn't extend the Reaper plot very much - we learnt what they do, but little else. We put a stop to some of their plans, but didn't achieve anything to prevent their arrival. I enjoyed it nonetheless. Frankly, I've always preferred the characters to the main plot, which is why I really like ME2 so much. I'm fine with the fact that the story about the Reapers didn't move massively forward - I was content to just spend 30 hours exploring the galaxy and finding out new things about both the species and the characters than inhabit it.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Firstly what's wrong with accepting stuff from the lead writer as canon? He's the guy creating the story and knows what's going on better than any of us. 

You'd think.

yet he has to check the wiki to remember characters...

[Candidate 88766]

iakus wrote...

If the Reaper wasn't going to be finished until after Arrival, why start building it?

This is pure speculation, but hear me out.

Normally when the Reapers arrive they cut off access to the Relays. With each system isolated they can harvest at their whim, and when they have harvested enough to create a new Reaper they can kill the remainder of that species off.

Now, with Shepard having stopped their arrival to the Citadel the Reapers are going to have to go in the 'back door'. They know that this will cause a much more drawn out war against the galaxy - civilization will still have access to the Relays - so its going to be harder to harvest species. If they spend too long in one system, the galaxy could mount a counter-attack. So, they use the Collectors to assess the species of the galaxy and begin to harvest those compatible with the 'Reaper-making criteria'. That way, when the Reapers arrive they instanly know which species require harvesting and which can just be killed. This is far more effiecient than arriving and slowly, system by system, assessing each species - something made harder due to the war which will be taking place. Its far more efficient for them to arrive knowing which species need to be locked down and harvested and which can just be obliterated.

Presumably they started building it to save time for when the Reapers arrived. Also, with a war going on it may be harder to harvest the number required - having some already harvested is efficient. Also, the new Reaper is in the galactic core - safe from the ongoing war until its finished.

[Arkitekt]

The point of ME2 was to have excellent fun. And I did.

[Candidate 88766]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Firstly what's wrong with accepting stuff from the lead writer as canon? He's the guy creating the story and knows what's going on better than any of us. 

You'd think.

yet he has to check the wiki to remember characters...

He doesn't write everything. He, and the writing team, will have a far better picture of whats happening in the story than we do but he isn't going to remeber every detail because he didn't write every detail or character.

[onelifecrisis]

@ Candidate

I agreed to that, or at least some of it, earlier in the thread.

[onelifecrisis]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Its far more efficient for them to arrive knowing which species need to be locked down and harvested and which can just be obliterated.

Apparently, nothing is obliterated. I don't have the source to hand, but apparently the "lesser" species are used to make the smaller reapers. All species are harvested. Or so I have heard.

[Geth_Prime]

I haven't read through every page, but the fact that none of the permanent squaddies in ME3 were permanent squaddies from ME2 doesn't mean those characters don't have large impacts in the game.

People often complain about how ME2 didn't advance the overall trilogy plot much. The thing is, ME2 introduced you to new characters, new conflicts, new problems. The whole point of ME2 was to set the scene for an incredible conclusion. Everything's about to get serious. The genophage issue is reemerging for the salarians. The quarians and geth are on the brink of war. Cerberus have now become a powerful enemy. The batarians are seriously pissed off with the Alliance. ME2 showed us a wider, deadlier, and more beautiful galaxy. And without it, we'd have far less to look forward to in ME3.

[Iakus]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

This is pure speculation, but hear me out.

Normally when the Reapers arrive they cut off access to the Relays. With each system isolated they can harvest at their whim, and when they have harvested enough to create a new Reaper they can kill the remainder of that species off.

Now, with Shepard having stopped their arrival to the Citadel the Reapers are going to have to go in the 'back door'. They know that this will cause a much more drawn out war against the galaxy - civilization will still have access to the Relays - so its going to be harder to harvest species. If they spend too long in one system, the galaxy could mount a counter-attack. So, they use the Collectors to assess the species of the galaxy and begin to harvest those compatible with the 'Reaper-making criteria'. That way, when the Reapers arrive they instanly know which species require harvesting and which can just be killed. This is far more effiecient than arriving and slowly, system by system, assessing each species - something made harder due to the war which will be taking place. Its far more efficient for them to arrive knowing which species need to be locked down and harvested and which can just be obliterated.

Presumably they started building it to save time for when the Reapers arrived. Also, with a war going on it may be harder to harvest the number required - having some already harvested is efficient. Also, the new Reaper is in the galactic core - safe from the ongoing war until its finished.

It's reasonable for them to use the Collectors to assess which species is best suited for Reaperfying..  But they took it further than that.  They started building an actual Reaper.  They started grabbing whole colonies.  tens of thousands of people or more.  This in turn tipped off certain people (like Cerberus) that something was up.  

If they were smart, they would have grabbed much smaller numbers and studied them rather than starting sull-scale construction.  Heck they've been "collecting" for thousands of years, who'd have noticed a little more?

[Candidate 88766]

onelifecrisis wrote...

@ Candidate

I agreed to that, or at least some of it, earlier in the thread.

It was The Silmarillion more than it was The Empire Strikes Back.

Not a bad way of putting it. 

ME1 was like the Hobbit. Like ME1 introduced the Ring and Sauron, ME1 introduced the Reapers, but neither was the focus of the story. The Reapers play a bigger role in ME1 than the Ring did in the Hobbit, but they weren't the focus of the game. The focus was ME1 was the story of Shepard tracking down and stopping Saren and his army.

ME2 is like the Silmarillion in some respects. It fleshes out a huge amount of the backstory, and sets things up for the final act - ME3 or LotR respectively. I would argue that ME2 is still important -even if you want to ignore the loyalty missions, the game still sets up Omega, the Collector Base, the Reapers' goals, the Dark Energy situation and the weapon that destroyed a Reaper in one shot. I'm sure at least some of those will have a role to play in ME3 - not all of them will, but some of them are bound to. And if you did do the loyalty missions then you've got a stronger or weaker Geth faction, a united or divided Quarian faction, a united or divided Krogan faction that may or may not be on the verge of curing itself, and potentially a very strong Cerberus - if you give them the Base and Legion I imagine they will be much stronger.

You say the script doesn't mention any impacts from these choices, but if you aren't willing to accept information directly from the lead designer then why are willing to accept it from an early and incomplete version of a script?

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 04 décembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[Candidate 88766]

iakus wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

This is pure speculation, but hear me out.

Normally when the Reapers arrive they cut off access to the Relays. With each system isolated they can harvest at their whim, and when they have harvested enough to create a new Reaper they can kill the remainder of that species off.

Now, with Shepard having stopped their arrival to the Citadel the Reapers are going to have to go in the 'back door'. They know that this will cause a much more drawn out war against the galaxy - civilization will still have access to the Relays - so its going to be harder to harvest species. If they spend too long in one system, the galaxy could mount a counter-attack. So, they use the Collectors to assess the species of the galaxy and begin to harvest those compatible with the 'Reaper-making criteria'. That way, when the Reapers arrive they instanly know which species require harvesting and which can just be killed. This is far more effiecient than arriving and slowly, system by system, assessing each species - something made harder due to the war which will be taking place. Its far more efficient for them to arrive knowing which species need to be locked down and harvested and which can just be obliterated.

Presumably they started building it to save time for when the Reapers arrived. Also, with a war going on it may be harder to harvest the number required - having some already harvested is efficient. Also, the new Reaper is in the galactic core - safe from the ongoing war until its finished.

It's reasonable for them to use the Collectors to assess which species is best suited for Reaperfying..  But they took it further than that.  They started building an actual Reaper.  They started grabbing whole colonies.  tens of thousands of people or more.  This in turn tipped off certain people (like Cerberus) that something was up.  

If they were smart, they would have grabbed much smaller numbers and studied them rather than starting sull-scale construction.  Heck they've been "collecting" for thousands of years, who'd have noticed a little more?

I think they grabbed as many as they could because of the imminent war. When the Reapers arrive, humans on colonies will probably fleee and be much harder to harvest. Many colonies will also probably be outright destroyed. I think it was a case of the Reapers are arriving shortly, get as many humans as you can before they arrive and don't worry if you're discovered because we can just retreat the galactic core and wait for the Reapers to come and demolish anything threatening us.

[Someone With Mass]

Geth_Prime wrote...

I haven't read through every page, but the fact that none of the permanent squaddies in ME3 were permanent squaddies from ME2 doesn't mean those characters don't have large impacts in the game.

People often complain about how ME2 didn't advance the overall trilogy plot much. The thing is, ME2 introduced you to new characters, new conflicts, new problems. The whole point of ME2 was to set the scene for an incredible conclusion. Everything's about to get serious. The genophage issue is reemerging for the salarians. The quarians and geth are on the brink of war. Cerberus have now become a powerful enemy. The batarians are seriously pissed off with the Alliance. ME2 showed us a wider, deadlier, and more beautiful galaxy. And without it, we'd have far less to look forward to in ME3.

This.

Really.

Most characters in ME2 have a much bigger impact on the story itself in ME3, instead of acting like the galaxy revolves around them.

While some of their loyalty missions were nice, it'll be much more interesting to see what each and everyone of them can do to contribute in the war.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
Wait, we're bringing common sense into this now?  :innocent:

Yes just because whoever wrote the scene was lacking any doesn't excuse us I'm afraid