580 réponses à ce sujet

[onelifecrisis]

Savber100 wrote...

So we agree that ME2 did advance the overarching story?

Nope.

Savber100 wrote...

And I agree with you about the main plot but I would argue that the destruction of the Collectors isn't some light decision tossed around for fun. You destroyed a key Reaper asset while also learned more about TIM and Cerberus (whose role increases in ME3). Even then if you really want to dismiss the importance of that, the so-called "side-quests" GREATLY helped advance the overarching narrative while also developing many key characters.

The side-quests helped flesh out the universe and characters, which is more than the main plot did, but none of it had much (if anything) to do with the main problem of how to stop the reaper invasion.

Savber100 wrote...

So in ME2, Shepard spends the second act trying to destroy a key Reaper asset. Meanwhile, Shepard does what he can to gather the "the best of the best" in saving thousands of human lives while also influencing key decisions like geth rewrite and genophage. All are key development of the end goal: To defeat the Reapers. By the end of ME2, we have destroyed a human Reaper, knocked out the Collectors, destroyed an Alpha Relay causing the death of thousands, find a potential cure for the genophage, learned a bit about dark energy, advised the Quarian's to avoid war, learned more abou the geth, witnessed the growing strength of Clan Urdnot, saw the ascension of Liara as the Shadow Broker, and found a potential technlogical advantage in the Collector's base.

You do realise that structuring your paragraph like mine doesn't actually make it as true as mine was, right?

The HR is a key reaper asset in the coming war? That's laughable.

Loyalty missions are key to the end goal? Please explain how even one of them is key to the end goal of stopping the reapers, especially when they're optional. You think players who didn't do the optional sidequests are doomed to fail? More to the point, do you really think that some cured Krogans and rewritten Geth are really going to be enough to stop the reapers?

"By the end of ME2, we have destroyed a human Reaper..." which would not have made any difference in the war seeing as it's incomplete.

"...knocked out the Collectors..." who would also have made no difference (read back through the thread to see why).

"...destroyed an Alpha Relay..." in a DLC, not in Mass Effect 2.

"...learned a bit about dark energy..." Huh? What did we learn about dark energy other than that it's called "dark energy"? And how is it supposed to help against the reapers?

You get the idea.

Savber100 wrote...

You can go ahead and complain  about plotholes but don't say that ME2 was pointless.

ME2 was pointless.

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...

"By the end of ME2, we have destroyed a human Reaper..." which would not have made any difference in the war seeing as it's incomplete.

"...knocked out the Collectors..." who would also have made no difference (read back through the thread to see why).

Untrue. Destroying the Collectors & Human-Reaper does make the difference. But it's ME3 spoilers territory, so don't expect people to talk about it here.

[onelifecrisis]

IsaacShep wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

"By the end of ME2, we have destroyed a human Reaper..." which would not have made any difference in the war seeing as it's incomplete.

"...knocked out the Collectors..." who would also have made no difference (read back through the thread to see why).

Untrue. Destroying the Collectors & Human-Reaper does make the difference. But it's ME3 spoilers territory, so don't expect people to talk about it here.

Really? That's intruiging. And unexpected. I wish they'd given some hint in ME2 that what we were doing had a point.

But if you say it makes all the difference in the leaked story then I guess that, after ME3, ME2 won't seem pointless after all? There's something messed up about that...

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...

But if you say it makes all the difference in the leaked story then I guess that, after ME3, ME2 won't seem pointless after all? There's something messed up about that...

Actually, it's rather expected everything would come together in the final part of the trilogy. If everything was clear in part 1 or part 2, there would be no point of having part 3.

[spirosz]

IsaacShep wrote...

Actually, it's rather expected everything would come together in the final part of the trilogy. If everything was clear in part 1 or part 2, there would be no point of having part 3.

Makes sense doesn't it, lol. 

[onelifecrisis]

IsaacShep wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

But if you say it makes all the difference in the leaked story then I guess that, after ME3, ME2 won't seem pointless after all? There's something messed up about that...

Actually, it's rather expected everything would come together in the final part of the trilogy. If everything was clear in part 1 or part 2, there would be no point of having part 3.

I'm not seeing how that's a response to what I said?
I'm talking about whether ME2 had a point. You... seem to be talking about whether ME3 will have a point?

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I'm talking about whether ME2 had a point.

And I already said it does.

[spirosz]

I believe Isaac is saying that if Bioware explained every single thing in ME2, then there will only really be one motivation, fighting. You'd basically be going into the game expecting nothing really, at least that's the way I view it.

[onelifecrisis]

Removing a comment from it's context in order to avoid the question? Fine. Thanks for your contribution.

[onelifecrisis]

spiros9110 wrote...

I believe Isaac is saying that if Bioware explained every single thing in ME2, then there will only really be one motivation, fighting. You'd basically be going into the game expecting nothing really, at least that's the way I view it.

Bioware didn't explain anything in ME2 that would give it a point, let alone everything.

[spirosz]

onelifecrisis wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

I believe Isaac is saying that if Bioware explained every single thing in ME2, then there will only really be one motivation, fighting. You'd basically be going into the game expecting nothing really, at least that's the way I view it.

Bioware didn't explain anything in ME2 that would give it a point, let alone everything.

They left certain things open to interpretation, which can lead you to use your imagination.  The Rachni for example, you can view the encounter on Illium many different ways.  Genophage decision, the use of Dark Energy, the different views on Geth, also the Quarian war with the Geth, there's future potential there.  There is a lot there and remember, there are game limatations, you can't expect everything to have a huge impact on the game because then there would be cut content/different content, which depending on your taste, may or may not be a bad thing.  So I really don't find the emails to be a bad thing in ME2 because I wasn't expecting each little small quest to change the game drastically, or at all.  I was expecting the major decisions to have an impact, either in ME2 or ME3 (mainly the last title).  

Also, I've played the game without any import and I find it to have a huge difference on the game world, it just feels so empty and boring in my opinion, so each it's own.

Modifié par spiros9110, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:53 .

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Removing a comment from it's context in order to avoid the question? Fine. Thanks for your contribution.

OK, what is your point? Arguing and criticizing on ME2 no matter what? ME2 did have a point and that point was in destroying the Collectors & Human-Reaper. But why did it matter in the context of Reaper invasion is ME3 spoilers territory so what more can be said?

[Welsh Inferno]

Essentially it was filler. But what, would you rather shep do? fly off to bash his head against the wall that is the Council/Alliance/Everyone(cause no one believes in teh Reapers), then end up on Omega developing a drinking problem while waiting for the Reapers to arrive. Or would you rather shep investigate why humans are being abducted by the mysterious Collectors and their potential connection to the Reapers. It wasn't pointless.

[Ryzaki]

Shep being depressed for a year until the Reapers come because s/he being stonewalled by everyone actually wouldn't have been that bad to me.

Provided that year was being spent chasing down fading leads and trying to develop some sort of plan against the reapers. Even if none of the gov'ts were willing to follow it at the moment.

[Welsh Inferno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shep being depressed for a year until the Reapers come because s/he being stonewalled by everyone actually wouldn't have been that bad to me.

Provided that year was being spent chasing down fading leads and trying to develop some sort of plan against the reapers. Even if none of the gov'ts were willing to follow it at the moment.

That could've worked. With it possibly ending with something similar to the Arrival DLC. IMO it would'nt have had as much impact as the ME2 plot had though. Dat epic feelin'

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[onelifecrisis]

spiros9110 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

I believe Isaac is saying that if Bioware explained every single thing in ME2, then there will only really be one motivation, fighting. You'd basically be going into the game expecting nothing really, at least that's the way I view it.

Bioware didn't explain anything in ME2 that would give it a point, let alone everything.

They left certain things open to interpertation, which can lead you to use your imagination.  The Rachni for example, you can view the encounter on Illium many different ways.  Genophage decision, the use of Dark Energy, the different views on Geth, also the Quarian war with the Geth, there's future potential there.  There is a lot there and remember, there are game limatations, you can't expect everything to have a huge impact on the game because then there would be cut content/different content, which depending on your taste, may or may not be a bad thing.  So I really don't find the emails to be a bad thing in ME2 because I wasn't expecting each little small quest to change the game drastically, or at all.  I was expecting the major decisions to have an impact, either in ME2 or ME3 (mainly the last title).  

I'm not sure if you're replying to my comments in this thread or just replying to my sig!

To use your examples,  we already know that the Rachni/Genophage/Geth/Quarian decisions will all have a minor impact at best in ME3. None of the races can stop the reapers, even when combined; instead you (Shepard) will be able to stop the reapers by other means regardless of those decisions. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing - at least not in the context of this thread. My stance here is that the central plot of ME2 seemed rather pointless in terms of the overall story. I mean, saving colonists from collectors isn't pointless in itself, but it is seemingly pointless in terms of the overarching "stop the reapers" plot, especially when you look at things from Shepard's POV, rather than looking at them as a player.

IsaacShep wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Removing a comment from it's context in order to avoid the question? Fine. Thanks for your contribution.

OK, what is your point? Arguing and criticizing on ME2 no matter what? ME2 did have a point and that point was in destroying the Collectors & Human-Reaper. But why did it matter in the context of Reaper invasion is ME3 spoilers territory so what more can be said?

You can't retroactively apply a point and say "there, see, it had a point". Well, okay, maybe you can, but it is (as I said) rather messed up.

Consider this story...

Act1:
John has a problem, which is that he needs to build a house but he has no bricks.

Act2:
John forgets about building a house and instead decides to chop down a tree for firewood. He chops down a tree and makes a big pile of soft wood, enough to last a year.

Act3:
Some bricks inexplicably fall out of the sky and land on the pile of wood, which breaks their fall. John realises that if he hadn't made that wood pile then the bricks would have smashed on the rocks/concrete/whatever beneath it, and then they'd have been useless. Thanking his lucky stars, John starts to build a house.

Does Act 2 have a point? You say yes. I say... it's kinda messed up.

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...
Does Act 2 have a point? You say yes. I say... it's kinda messed up.

So basically you argue Shep should've ignored hundreds of thousands of people disappearing as "for sure totally not related to Reapers TIM is just a lunatic lol we so clearly won't find any new trace/lead/info here, it doesn't look suspicious at all"?

[Yezdigerd]

The more I think about it the less sense the collector plot makes. If a reaper invasion is imminent, why waste time and resources assisting human colonies who are going to be killed anyway if the reapers aren't stopped?
Shepard should really spent ME2 trying to prove the reapers existence so the galactic community would be compelled to focus on war. Settling disputes between nations etc.
Instead Shepard goes on a "suicide mission" courting total inability to combat the reaper threat.

[shepskisaac]

Yezdigerd wrote...

The more I think about it the less sense the collector plot makes. If a reaper invasion is imminent, why waste time and resources assisting human colonies who are going to be killed anyway if the reapers aren't stopped?
Shepard should really spent ME2 trying to prove the reapers existence so the galactic community would be compelled to focus on war. Settling disputes between nations etc.
Instead Shepard goes on a "suicide mission" courting total inability to combat the reaper threat.

Or perhaps he should've followed the only potential Reaper lead that appeared since the destruction of Sovereign that could perhaps give him some more info, anything that could help defeating them like he did?

[onelifecrisis]

IsaacShep wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
Does Act 2 have a point? You say yes. I say... it's kinda messed up.

So basically you argue Shep should've ignored hundreds of thousands of people disappearing as "for sure totally not related to Reapers TIM is just a lunatic lol we so clearly won't find any new trace/lead/info here, it doesn't look suspicious at all"?

Firstly, I'm saying that as the second act of a supposedly planned trilogy it didn't have a point. That's what this thread is about.

Secondly, you're asking me what Shepard should have done within the context of a plot that I've already said was pointless. The solution, were one to try to fix this, would be to have a different plot, not the same plot with a different protagonist reaction.

[spirosz]

onelifecrisis wrote...

To use your examples, we already know that the Rachni/Genophage/Geth/Quarian decisions will all have a minor impact at best in ME3. None of the races can stop the reapers, even when combined; instead you (Shepard) will be able to stop the reapers by other means regardless of those decisions. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing - at least not in the context of this thread. My stance here is that the central plot of ME2 seemed rather pointless in terms of the overall story. I mean, saving colonists from collectors isn't pointless in itself, but it is seemingly pointless in terms of the overarching "stop the reapers" plot, especially when you look at things from Shepard's POV, rather than looking at them as a player.

I guess it depends on how you view the story, I agree about the story not being that strong though, but I still view it having value in the overall continuation of my Shep's story. Maybe if they didn't have the SM itself and focused more on gathering resources or gaining allies for the future invasion, than I would agree, but I'm just going off what was in the game itself, so maybe you're right about it not really serving a purpose.

One thing about ME2 though, is it was more personal for me, especially after the last two DLC's and certain characters. It made me view the universe in a different way, which leads to a interesting development for my Shepard. So I guess that's one aspect that stands out for me and that's why I probably don't mind how the story was handled.

[Welsh Inferno]

Yezdigerd wrote...


If a reaper invasion is imminent

A reaper invasion is imminent?! Shep had no clue how far they are or what they are doing until Arrival.

Shepard should really spent ME2 trying to prove the reapers existance

Ah yes 'Reapers'.

[shepskisaac]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Firstly, I'm saying that as the second act of a supposedly planned trilogy it didn't have a point. That's what this thread is about.

Secondly, you're asking me what Shepard should have done within the context of a plot that I've already said was pointless. The solution, were one to try to fix this, would be to have a different plot, not the same plot with a different protagonist reaction.

Clearly nothing I say gonna change your already settled conclusion "ME2 doesn't matter". So see you after the release date, you will see it yourself.

[Subferro]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Consider this story...

Act1:
John has a problem, which is that he needs to build a house but he has no bricks.

Act2:
John forgets about building a house and instead decides to chop down a tree for firewood. He chops down a tree and makes a big pile of soft wood, enough to last a year.

Act3:
Some bricks inexplicably fall out of the sky and land on the pile of wood, which breaks their fall. John realises that if he hadn't made that wood pile then the bricks would have smashed on the rocks/concrete/whatever beneath it, and then they'd have been useless. Thanking his lucky stars, John starts to build a house.

Does Act 2 have a point? You say yes. I say... it's kinda messed up.

Quite a stretch at summarzing the story, but if that's how you want to play, you should at least get the acts right.

Act1:
John has a problem, which is that he needs to build a house but he has no bricks. - ok, we'll work with this setup

Act2:
John forgets about building a still wants to build a house, but can't find anyone to help him haul bricks. After a branch nearly crushes him, he follows a "friend's" advice to build an axe and clear out a troublesome tree that doesn't want him to succeed at building a house. He learns that the tree was planted by a rival house builder, and while chopping it down realizes that houses require both bricks... and mortar. - sure, he didn't make any progress on the house, but maybe John is looking at a bigger picture.

Act3:
Will this new knowledge come in to play? Did crafting the axe give John another tool he'll need to build his house? Does it matter that Vader is Luke's father? I haven't read the leak (or seen RoTJ), so only time will tell.


From another perspective, if they held up a big sign that said "THIS IS HOW YOU WILL DEFEAT THE REAPERS" in Act 2, Act 3 would lose a lot of its suspense.

Modifié par Subferro, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[onelifecrisis]

spiros9110 wrote...

One thing about ME2 though, is it was more personal for me, especially after the last two DLC's and certain characters. It made me view the universe in a different way, which leads to a interesting development for my Shepard. So I guess that's one aspect that stands out for me and that's why I probably don't mind how the story was handled.

I loved the way the loyalty missions fleshed out the universe, the backstory, and the characters. WRT the story I think those missions were the good parts of ME2. I'm only debating whether ME2 had a point within the overall story.