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[onelifecrisis]

Subferro wrote...

Quite a stretch at summarzing the story

Who said I was summarising the (ME) story?

[Subferro]

Kind of a pointless analogy otherwise, isn't it? Doesn't really do anything to (dis)prove the validity of ME2 if it's not actually comparable...

[Yezdigerd]

IsaacShep wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

The more I think about it the less sense the collector plot makes. If a reaper invasion is imminent, why waste time and resources assisting human colonies who are going to be killed anyway if the reapers aren't stopped?
Shepard should really spent ME2 trying to prove the reapers existence so the galactic community would be compelled to focus on war. Settling disputes between nations etc.
Instead Shepard goes on a "suicide mission" courting total inability to combat the reaper threat.

Or perhaps he should've followed the only potential Reaper lead that appeared since the destruction of Sovereign that could perhaps give him some more info, anything that could help defeating them like he did?

Except this is never a concern. Shepard's expressed goal is to save human colonists. He stays on with Cerberus because the alliance aren't doing enough to protect them. He shows little interest in following up his discoveries. Cerberus have a derelict reaper. Maybe I should take the council's commitee for reaper scepticism on a tour? Nah, the important part is getting the IFF to stop the collectors from abducting more humans.

"We don't know how many the Collectors have stolen-thousands, hundreds of thousands. It doesn't matter. What matters is this: Not one more. That's what we can do, here, today. It ends with us."

And then the reapers came.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[111987]

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

[Yezdigerd]

Welsh Inferno wrote...


A reaper invasion is imminent?! Shep had no clue how far they are or what they are doing until Arrival.

Yes he doesn't know thats the point. maybe they come next year, or in a hundred years but he knows they are coming.
He should be forced to act like the invasion is imminent because he can't afford to assume otherwise.

[Mclouvins]

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

I generally concur with this assessment. ME2 is about Shepard being one of a few who knows the truth and doing the best he can to slow down the reapers by stopping their agents. I think a few people have forgotten that the evidence in the form of the derelect reaper was destroyed when it fell into the gas giant. It is certainly a bridge between 1 and 3 but so is every middle section of a series for any medium, which does not mean that the series should have been distilled to the first and final chapters. All in all the overall narrative of ME2 and how it relates to the broader trilogy is quite satisfactory.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

The probloem is it's never clear how big a threat the Collectors are.

Sure they've abducted tens of thousands of humans, totally emptying several remote colonies.  Definitely a threat.   But a threat that pales in comparison to the Reapers who want to kill everybody

The Collectors have more than one ship?  Okay, how many?  What kinds?  We see exactly one cruiser.  That dies to an upgraded frigate

Collectors are building a human Reaper?  All right, I can see how that would be a major threat toAllance security.  Just one of those things can cripple or destroy an entire fleet.  But wait!  By the time it's done there will be thousands of these things in the galaxy!

So in the end, what was the pont of the Collectors?  Except to act stupidly and alert Cerberus that the Reapers are still active in the galaxy?  How do the Collectors actions threaten humanity?  Not just human colonies, humanity.

[onelifecrisis]

IsaacShep wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Firstly, I'm saying that as the second act of a supposedly planned trilogy it didn't have a point. That's what this thread is about.

Secondly, you're asking me what Shepard should have done within the context of a plot that I've already said was pointless. The solution, were one to try to fix this, would be to have a different plot, not the same plot with a different protagonist reaction.

Clearly nothing I say gonna change your already settled conclusion "ME2 doesn't matter". So see you after the release date, you will see it yourself.

Well FWIW I am pleased to hear that the HR/Collector plot will be "fixed" (for want of a better word) in ME3, rather than just forgotten.

[Mclouvins]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

The probloem is it's never clear how big a threat the Collectors are.

Sure they've abducted tens of thousands of humans, totally emptying several remote colonies.  Definitely a threat.   But a threat that pales in comparison to the Reapers who want to kill everybody

The Collectors have more than one ship?  Okay, how many?  What kinds?  We see exactly one cruiser.  That dies to an upgraded frigate

Collectors are building a human Reaper?  All right, I can see how that would be a major threat toAllance security.  Just one of those things can cripple or destroy an entire fleet.  But wait!  By the time it's done there will be thousands of these things in the galaxy!

So in the end, what was the pont of the Collectors?  Except to act stupidly and alert Cerberus that the Reapers are still active in the galaxy?  How do the Collectors actions threaten humanity?  Not just human colonies, humanity.

It was either fight the collectors and stay in shape or eat twinkies and not fit into his/her armor when the reapers actually arrived. I think Shepard made the right choice .

[Adugan]

The thing with the collectors is, that there was no hint of them in ME1, and not a trace left in ME3. They were a plot mechanism that simply disappears, since you can even destroy their base. Potentially nothing will remain of them in ME3.

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

The probloem is it's never clear how big a threat the Collectors are.

Sure they've abducted tens of thousands of humans, totally emptying several remote colonies.  Definitely a threat.   But a threat that pales in comparison to the Reapers who want to kill everybody

The Collectors have more than one ship?  Okay, how many?  What kinds?  We see exactly one cruiser.  That dies to an upgraded frigate

Collectors are building a human Reaper?  All right, I can see how that would be a major threat toAllance security.  Just one of those things can cripple or destroy an entire fleet.  But wait!  By the time it's done there will be thousands of these things in the galaxy!

So in the end, what was the pont of the Collectors?  Except to act stupidly and alert Cerberus that the Reapers are still active in the galaxy?  How do the Collectors actions threaten humanity?  Not just human colonies, humanity.

No matter how big or small a threat, what else would you have had Shepard done? Ignore the Collectors and try to build alliances for a war most people don't believe will happen?

The Reapers were an unknown; Shepard had no idea when they would arrive, or even if they could arrive without the Citadel. The Collectors were a very real, present threat in the galaxy whom had taken hundreds of thousands of colonists. And at the beginning of the game because we do not know the Collector's true strength, we could very well assume they pose a threat to Earth itself, or could facilitate the return of the Reapers somehow (Saren 2.0?). Thus stopping them should be a priority.

[111987]

Adugan wrote...

The thing with the collectors is, that there was no hint of them in ME1, and not a trace left in ME3. They were a plot mechanism that simply disappears, since you can even destroy their base. Potentially nothing will remain of them in ME3.

The bolded part is what I feel is the Collector's main problem. If they had been foreshadowed, or there had been a sidequest about them, it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue and fillerish.

[Mclouvins]

They sort of address the lack of information regarding the collector's in ME2 though. Half the people we met didn't believe they were real because the were covert since they didn't pose a threat in ME1. In the context of ME1 the vorcha were probably more dangerous but to the best of my recollection were not mentioned or hinted at all either. While you are certainly entitled you opinion I believe that had the collectors been players in ME1 to almost any extent than it would have undermined some of the mystery about them in the beginning of the second game.

[CerberusWarrior]

Bioware is just throwing the story together as they go thats why 2 does not matter just like our choices do not matter

[Il Divo]

111987 wrote...

Adugan wrote...

The thing with the collectors is, that there was no hint of them in ME1, and not a trace left in ME3. They were a plot mechanism that simply disappears, since you can even destroy their base. Potentially nothing will remain of them in ME3.

The bolded part is what I feel is the Collector's main problem. If they had been foreshadowed, or there had been a sidequest about them, it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue and fillerish.

No "clear mention", but Vigil did describe the existence of sleeper groups of Protheans whom the Reapers used to trick others into letting them have access to their systems. Considering this and Vigil's own limited knowledge on Reaper activities, I don't think it would be too far a stretch to give them the existence of the Collectors.

[111987]

Mclouvins wrote...

They sort of address the lack of information regarding the collector's in ME2 though. Half the people we met didn't believe they were real because the were covert since they didn't pose a threat in ME1. In the context of ME1 the vorcha were probably more dangerous but to the best of my recollection were not mentioned or hinted at all either. While you are certainly entitled you opinion I believe that had the collectors been players in ME1 to almost any extent than it would have undermined some of the mystery about them in the beginning of the second game.

Nah I have to disagree. They easily could have introduced them but kept them mysterious. Just one sidequest, or conversation about them. It would improve the contiuity of the story.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

The probloem is it's never clear how big a threat the Collectors are.

Sure they've abducted tens of thousands of humans, totally emptying several remote colonies.  Definitely a threat.   But a threat that pales in comparison to the Reapers who want to kill everybody

The Collectors have more than one ship?  Okay, how many?  What kinds?  We see exactly one cruiser.  That dies to an upgraded frigate

Collectors are building a human Reaper?  All right, I can see how that would be a major threat toAllance security.  Just one of those things can cripple or destroy an entire fleet.  But wait!  By the time it's done there will be thousands of these things in the galaxy!

So in the end, what was the pont of the Collectors?  Except to act stupidly and alert Cerberus that the Reapers are still active in the galaxy?  How do the Collectors actions threaten humanity?  Not just human colonies, humanity.

No matter how big or small a threat, what else would you have had Shepard done? Ignore the Collectors and try to build alliances for a war most people don't believe will happen?

The Reapers were an unknown; Shepard had no idea when they would arrive, or even if they could arrive without the Citadel. The Collectors were a very real, present threat in the galaxy whom had taken hundreds of thousands of colonists. And at the beginning of the game because we do not know the Collector's true strength, we could very well assume they pose a threat to Earth itself, or could facilitate the return of the Reapers somehow (Saren 2.0?). Thus stopping them should be a priority.

It's not what Shepard should have done, it's what the writers should have done. 

And an entire game could have centered around exactly that:  finding out when and how they'd arrive without the Citadel.  Heck they did make a DLC about that:  Arrival.

As it is, right up until the Suicide Mission, we have no idea what kind of threat to humanity or the galaxy the Collectors pose.  They only hit remote colonies, we only see one ship.  The batarians have done as much or more.

[CerberusWarrior]

the collectors mere puppets why do we have to fight mere puppets in 2 games now we fight a 3rd set of puppets it seems in 3 . what Bioware has no balls to have Shepard and his / her team go head up with the reapers its a crap story . Star Trek never did this dumb crap with the Borg .

[111987]

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

iakus wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shepard couldn't have done anything to prepare against the Reapers because there was still no proof of their existence. He could not gather allies for a war most didn't believe was going to happen.

So he did the next best thing, and took out the Reaper's agents as they a direct threat to humanity and really, there was nothing else for him to do.

I like the story BioWare told/is telling, but I realize not everyone will. There is not one story where everyone in the world likes it.

The probloem is it's never clear how big a threat the Collectors are.

Sure they've abducted tens of thousands of humans, totally emptying several remote colonies.  Definitely a threat.   But a threat that pales in comparison to the Reapers who want to kill everybody

The Collectors have more than one ship?  Okay, how many?  What kinds?  We see exactly one cruiser.  That dies to an upgraded frigate

Collectors are building a human Reaper?  All right, I can see how that would be a major threat toAllance security.  Just one of those things can cripple or destroy an entire fleet.  But wait!  By the time it's done there will be thousands of these things in the galaxy!

So in the end, what was the pont of the Collectors?  Except to act stupidly and alert Cerberus that the Reapers are still active in the galaxy?  How do the Collectors actions threaten humanity?  Not just human colonies, humanity.

No matter how big or small a threat, what else would you have had Shepard done? Ignore the Collectors and try to build alliances for a war most people don't believe will happen?

The Reapers were an unknown; Shepard had no idea when they would arrive, or even if they could arrive without the Citadel. The Collectors were a very real, present threat in the galaxy whom had taken hundreds of thousands of colonists. And at the beginning of the game because we do not know the Collector's true strength, we could very well assume they pose a threat to Earth itself, or could facilitate the return of the Reapers somehow (Saren 2.0?). Thus stopping them should be a priority.

It's not what Shepard should have done, it's what the writers should have done. 

And an entire game could have centered around exactly that:  finding out when and how they'd arrive without the Citadel.  Heck they did make a DLC about that:  Arrival.

As it is, right up until the Suicide Mission, we have no idea what kind of threat to humanity or the galaxy the Collectors pose.  They only hit remote colonies, we only see one ship.  The batarians have done as much or more.

Ah, so it's the direction of the series you don't like.

I have to say, you once posted an idea of where the Suicide Mission was Arrival, and I thought it was awesome.

[Iakus]

111987 wrote...

Ah, so it's the direction of the series you don't like.

I have to say, you once posted an idea of where the Suicide Mission was Arrival, and I thought it was awesome.

I don't know if "direction" is the word I'd use, since the story has to go somewhere to not like the direction 

And yes, a Suicide Mission where Cerberus brings Shep into assemble a team to infiltrate batarian Space and hit the Alpha Relay would have made for a much better story.

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

something about how the galaxy is at stake, and you should fix the problem yourself.

[AlexXIV]

111987 wrote...

Adugan wrote...

The thing with the collectors is, that there was no hint of them in ME1, and not a trace left in ME3. They were a plot mechanism that simply disappears, since you can even destroy their base. Potentially nothing will remain of them in ME3.

The bolded part is what I feel is the Collector's main problem. If they had been foreshadowed, or there had been a sidequest about them, it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue and fillerish.

Yeah that's a bit weak indeed. At least you should have *heard* of them before. And I also agree that Arrival makes for a much better final chapter than the suicide mission, despite the fact that I liked the SM as such. Maybe they should have made it so that you discover the info that the Reapers are going to invade the Alpha Relay on the base before you blow it up and then go to stop them. Of course Arrival would have to be rewritten then if shep already knows about the invasion when he gets there.

[Ryzaki]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

That could've worked. With it possibly ending with something similar to the Arrival DLC. IMO it would'nt have had as much impact as the ME2 plot had though. Dat epic feelin'

It wouldn't have but they could've used that story to make a more "human" Shepard and the more character driven story would've made far far more sense.

[Savber100]

onelifecrisis wrote...

The side-quests helped flesh out the universe and characters, which is more than the main plot did, but none of it had much (if anything) to do with the main problem of how to stop the reaper invasion.

First, I already gave my examples of which you just dismiss as non-essential. I'll address the points at the bottom. 

Second, your statement just simply dismiss the importance of side quests as if the main quest was all that mattered in ME2. Sidequests are part of ME2 too, and as you said, ME2 fleshed out the universe and characters. So why the heck does that make it pointless just because half of it was from major questlines that doesn't directly deal with the Reapers? 

onelifecrisis wrote...
Loyalty missions are key to the end goal? Please explain how even one of them is key to the end goal of stopping the reapers, especially when they're optional. You think players who didn't do the optional sidequests are doomed to fail? More to the point, do you really think that some cured Krogans and rewritten Geth are really going to be enough to stop the reapers?

LOL... so optional stuff is equaled to not key to the main plot? Ever heard of choices and consequencse? You know... that famed mechanics where you choose to either help or not and then live with the consequences? 

And yes, I believe the people who skipped the "optional stuff" will have a worse ending. Look at the loyalty mission for Mordin. Skip it and it will directly impact the Krogan's fate. Look at the loyalty mission of Legion. Skip it and you miss out in a major decision regarding the geth's fate. Even sidequests like Garrus's loyalty mission greatly affected the character. Who's to say that this will have zero effect? If it doesn't have any effect in ME3 by all means you are totally correct in saying that ME2 is pointless. But as stated, we don't know what will happen in ME3. So why are we already dismissing all the decisions made as pointless already? 

onelifecrisis wrote...
"By the end of ME2, we have destroyed a human Reaper..." which would not have made any difference in the war seeing as it's incomplete.

"...knocked out the Collectors..." who would also have made no difference (read back through the thread to see why).

"...destroyed an Alpha Relay..." in a DLC, not in Mass Effect 2.

"...learned a bit about dark energy..." Huh? What did we learn about dark energy other than that it's called "dark energy"? And how is it supposed to help against the reapers?

You get the idea.

*shrug* 

It's the same reason why they destroyed Saruman in TT. Sure, you  weren't fighting the Dark Lord directly but you still knocked out a key asset. We can argue back and forth about the point of Collectors but are you honestly telling me that leaving the Collectors to their own bidding, kidnapping hundred of thousands of humans, and creating a human reaper would have leaved a positive mark in the upcoming war? If this problem was soo pointless and miniscule then why bother to deal with it? Hint: It's NOT. 

Also what's the point of dismissing DLC from ME2? DLCs are still part of ME2. 

[onelifecrisis]

Savber100 wrote...

Your statement just simply dismiss the importance of side quests as if the main quest was all that mattered in ME2. Sidequests are part of ME2 too, and as you said, ME2 fleshed out the universe and characters. So why the heck does that make it pointless just because half of it was from major questlines that doesn't directly deal with the Reapers?

Because the other half was also questlines that don't directly deal with the reapers.

LOL... so optional stuff is equaled to not key to the main plot? Ever heard of choices and consequencse?

I've heard of it, but I've yet to see it in the ME series (unless you count seemingly inconsequential squaddy deaths). Regardless, even if those choices do make a difference in ME3, my point still stands.

And yes, I believe the people who skipped the "optional stuff" will have a worse ending.

But they'll still defeat the reapers, yes?

It's the same reason why they destroyed Saruman in TT.

No, it's not. Had Sauruman not been defeated, the good guys would have lost. That's made pretty clear. It seems that the collectors and the HR, on the other hand, could have been ignored with no real consequence (Isaac said this is not the case based on the leaks, and I'm pleased to hear it, but ME2 still seems pointless taken on it's own merits).

Sure, you  weren't fighting the Dark Lord directly but you still knocked out a key asset.

Frodo was making his way to mount doom in Act 2. I never saw Shepard making any progress towards stopping the reapers in ME2.

We can argue back and forth about the point of Collectors but are you honestly telling me that leaving the Collectors to their own bidding, kidnapping hundred of thousands of humans, and creating a human reaper would have leaved a positive mark in the upcoming war?

You mean to say you think the human reaper would have been completed by the time the reapers arrived? Firstly this strikes me as unlikely. Millions more humans were required to finish the reaper. The collectors had taken 2 years to collect just 100k humans without any opposition. I can't see how they'd have finished it in time. Secondly, even if they had somehow completed it, with thousands of reapers arriving I'm not seeing how 1 more would have significantly tipped the scales.

If this problem was soo pointless and miniscule then why bother to deal with it?

Exactly.

Also what's the point of dismissing DLC from ME2? DLCs are still part of ME2.

No they're not.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:35 .