578 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Probably because he didn't want dozens of governments fighting over the corpse and carting it away piece by piece. Remember how the study of Sovereign was conducted? Everybody grabbed what they could and nobody shared.

This is a different situation though. Sovereign was in pieces, the Citadel was badly damaged, the Council may have been dead, the Citadel fleets were in disarray, etc...that wouldn't have happened with the Derelict Reaper.

Saphra Deden wrote...

That said, I'm sure he also would prefer to keep as much as he can in Cerberus' hands.

However is that worse than nobody having it at all?

We are all going to go and slay a dragon but only one of us gets a weapon or none of us get one. Which scenario are you more likely to survive?

That analogy doesn't work though. Cerberus is a relatively small organization. Alone, they can't make much of a difference (this coming from the viewpoint of ME2 Shepard, who doesn't know they'll soon have an army and fleets). And yet their past actions have shown that in all likelihood, they'll keep the information/technology to themselves, for their own purposes.

Not to mention the other races will know that Shepard willingly handed over the Collector Base to Cerberus. Since the other races hate Cerberus, and they are avowed enemies of the Council, it could be a serious detriment to forming alliances between humanity and the rest of the galaxy.

I would take a unified galaxy fighting the Reapers over the slim hope that what Cerberus finds in the Collector Base is enough to save humanity.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So in which scenario do you think you have better chance of survival?

Okay I got lost in the D&D analogies here, but could you restate the precise in-game context/question?  It sounds like something interesting to think about and reply to.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Clearly I am missing your point. Break it down for me.

The point is that up until that point, they have barely managed to control small parts of Reaper technology. Reaper technology that didn't have the ability to fight back, even.

I don't think they have the ability to control a whole base that's creating Reapers with any form of grace or competence.

[sh4manz]

Saphra's point here, I think, is that Cerberus having technology and using it to fight for the existence of sentient life (even if it's only human) is better than NOBODY utilizing these great finds (the derelict Reaper and the Collector Base) and us all getting turned into grey-goo.

His/Her point on the galactic governments, gangs, etc. hoarding pieces of Sovereign until everybody eventually dismissed the existence of the Reapers brings up a good point: The Galactic Community, as a whole, would not and will not share anything to the point of their own extinction.

As for the OP: Your personal opinion is the entire subject matter of the first part of this thread as it is entirely your OPINION that they present their cases well in their various arguments. The fact that they argue is the only factual thing you've brought up, so this is all rather pointless.

[sh4manz]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Clearly I am missing your point. Break it down for me.

The point is that up until that point, they have barely managed to control small parts of Reaper technology. Reaper technology that didn't have the ability to fight back, even.

I don't think they have the ability to control a whole base that's creating Reapers with any form of grace or competence.

The Collector Base didn't show signs of indoctrination when you went to pick up your crew, and they'd been in Collector hands much longer than your brief stay. So what's to control beyond some fancy new toys?

[mybudgee]

I want to remove the Dragon's head, seperate all its parts, and replace the head with myself

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

This is a different situation though. Sovereign was in pieces, the Citadel was badly damaged, the Council may have been dead, the Citadel fleets were in disarray, etc...that wouldn't have happened with the Derelict Reaper.

How do you know this wouldn't have happened? The Reaper is far more valuable because it is relatively intact. The parties involved would have ten times the motivation to grab as much as they could. It's entirely possible the whole thing would get caught up in beaucracy and nobody would get to study it. The IFF might never be found that way.

The other races are not barbarians; they wouldn't just rip the Reaper to pieces. Like when the Alliance found the Prothean beacon, it would have been turned over to the Council/Citadel government where every race would be involved in its study.

It would force the Council to realize the truth about the Reapers, and while that would cause panic, the militaries and governments could begin preparation for the Reapers arrival.

Saphra Deden wrote...

My analogy works perfectly and Cerberus being small is irrelevant. With the right technology they can certainly make a difference. They stopped the Collectors after all. Cerberus even defeated the Shadow Broker something that no government had ever managed.

150 agents won't be able to stop thousands of Reapers. I hope you're really not suggesting the Collectors are even remotely close to the same threat level as the Reapers.

The analogy would be better if you said that the the entire populaton of China was going off to slay the dragon, and one lone person had something that might possibly be a weapon, but could end up just stabbing everyone in the back anyways.

And the anology doesn't even begin to deal with all the politics and alliances involved, so really, it's pretty terrible. Let's just stop talking about it.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Would they and if they did why would they care? They've got much bigger concerns.

Hackett somehow knew. And the Shadow Broker does have camers on the Normandy, somehow. Why would they care? Because it shows that Shepard gave an avowed enemy of the Council and aliens in general. I certainly wouldn't be inclined to listen to that kind of a person when he walks in asking for help against the Reapers.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Until they become stronger than anything else after the war (thanks to the salvaged tech).

You really think a small group like Cerberus can outshine the established powers of the galaxy?

Regardless, is this future so terrifying that you'd rather risk condemning the galaxy to death?

We really don't know enough about Cerberus to make that kind of conclusion. They are said to be small, but really, we have little info to say one way or another. They are apparently resourceful enough to recreate the most advanced warship in the Alliance fleet with their said small size. They conduct experiments that threaten technological apolcolypse when they go wrong. And, we also don't know how powerful the base's tech is, and how powerful it would make them either.

I haven't seen enough to conclude that they are small. I have seen enough to conclude they are pretty dangerous.

In the end I ask: what is the difference between if Cerberus used the base to adopt Reaper methods while the galaxy is in tatters, and the normal Reaper cycle? Either way, you live as a slave or just die. Like using krogan to fight rachni, eventually the krogan just became the new problem. The rachni wars were only postponed. If you're just going to create the same thing as what you're fighting and likely the same outcome, what's the point?

[Someone With Mass]

sh4manz wrote...
The Collector Base didn't show signs of indoctrination when you went to pick up your crew, and they'd been in Collector hands much longer than your brief stay. So what's to control beyond some fancy new toys?

You mean besides the plague virus that kills pretty much everything except humans, vorcha and perhaps quarians with functioning air filters?

[AdmiralCheez]

sh4manz wrote...

Saphra's point here, I think, is that Cerberus having technology and using it to fight for the existence of sentient life (even if it's only human) is better than NOBODY utilizing these great finds (the derelict Reaper and the Collector Base) and us all getting turned into grey-goo.

Not sure about that.  Too often is Reaper tech presented in the ME universe as a bit of a Pandora's box.  If Cerberus presented a higher measure of competence and the stuff we encountered really seemed crucial to victory, I'd absolutely give them the CB all day, erry day, but too many narrative hints made it seem like a bad idea.

His/Her point on the galactic governments, gangs, etc. hoarding pieces of Sovereign until everybody eventually dismissed the existence of the Reapers brings up a good point: The Galactic Community, as a whole, would not and will not share anything to the point of their own extinction.

Well, yeah.  It's not like any of the races/factions are better or more competent than humans (and the STG/Spectres approach Cerberus in their morally dubious activities).  On their own, interspecies/faction bickering would result in the Reapers winning.  Hence why Shepard is crucial--Shep gets people to share their sh*t.

So yes, giving everyone a fair share is a good idea in peacetime, but not during war.  However, investing solely in Cerberus is pretty dumb, since they are just as likely as any other group, perhaps moreso, to turn on Shepard and resume interfaction bickering.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

So to answer Saph's question: Yes, Cerberus keeping their findings to themselves during ME2 is a good thing--we need the resources to complete the mission and don't want anything to get caught up in the realm of political bullsh*t.  However, that does not mean one should take active steps to strengthen Cerberus, nor should one ally with Cerberus alone.  They're too much of a wild card.

[Someone With Mass]

mybudgee wrote...

I want to remove the Dragon's head, seperate all its parts, and replace the head with myself

Mutilation is so much fun sometimes.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You mean the one that Mordin managed to whip up a cure for in is dinky little doctor's office in the slums?

Because every possible target has air circulation systems, right?

Not to mention that Cerberus could alter it or deploy it in a different manner than gas.

[Medhia Nox]

I think for me - the problem lies in the character of "TIM". I don't admire him like so many people on the BSN do.

In very many ways he is the anti-Shepard. The only thing he does - is "talk". He hardly ever even gets up from the stupid chair in the stupid observation room of his.

Now - fans of him will say: "He's planning." and that's not an invalid statement - but, with his extreme "hands off" approach it seems that far too often - his "planning" is bungled by his seemingly mile long streak of hiring incompetent project leads.

====

Concerning the Collector Base - I see it as attacking a military installation of the enemy. I don't "occupy" it - because it's in enemy territory.  I practice scorched earth and deprive my enemy of a valuable resource.

The comparisons break down because it is not (two equal armies going against one another) - I would imagine it would be more like Native Americans attacking a gun manufacturer.

They simply cannot "reverse engineer" the guns - because the leap of technology would be far too great and take far too long.  ((And saying "of course we could" - is just as much meta-gaming as anything else))

So - instead - a wise general "might" just decide: "I will at least deprive my enemy of it." and ignite the gunpowder and blow up the manufacturer.

=====

A saved Collector base needs to be defended - and Cerberus would be out of the fight while they "reverse engineer" an entire starship. Cerberus is too small - and would be overrun - putting the Collector base back into ONE Reaper's hands... let alone an armada of them.

Putting any more defense around the Collector base would be a poor allocation of resources... as there are homeworlds which need to be defended. If you do not defend the "HQ" - you'll just end up with another "Super Canon at the end of the war." scenario that has already played out with a failed race in the ME history.

I also cannot imagine that this vastly superior race (the Reapers) would put anything useful on the ship that a race of slave automatons work on.

I can make slaves work a complex machine - without providing the schematics for that machine. Or, more importantly, the schematics for the device that will defeat me...

====

Anyway, I've been over my "reasoning" several times - and none of it involves "sticking it to TIM" - though his ability to mismanage his organization does play a small factor.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they are much worse.

You are seriously underestimating the politics at work here. It would be a **** storm and the Reaper may sit untouched for decades while the races decide how best to study it, who should study it, what to study, ect... 

Look at Ilos in the Renegade universe. You have the Alliance claiming the world as their own whilst the salarians insist it belongs to everybody.

Okay, then there's no point in keeping the Collector base then, since every possible weapon that comes out of that thing will only belong to Cerberus, and as you've said before, they're so small compared to the other factions and it'd be pointless to place the galaxy in a choke-hold while races are waiting for something like a cure or a weapon from Cerberus after the politicians have had their little fun, which by your logic will take forever/too long.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

We were talking about the Collector base. Some posters feel it is too dangerous to be left in Cerberus' hands because it might make them too powerful.

Well, that's a bit silly.  A small group with a Reaper factory may cause trouble, but it's not like they're going to rule the galaxy with the damn thing.  Hardly ever give it to them myself (story reasons), but logically speaking the possible reward (tech/better understanding of the Reapers) outweighs the risk (Cerberus raises hell with dangerous tech/some members get indoctrinated--I mean, please, they do this sh*t all the time).

So to that I say which is worse? A galaxy in which nobody has the technology to defeat the Reapers or a galaxy in which only Cerberus has it? (i'm simplifying things here)

Thus, would you rather go to fight a dragon where nobody has weapons or where only one party member has a weapon?

Okay, I get it.  To answer your question, well duh, better Cerberus knows how to stop the Reapers than no one at all.  However, this is a bit too oversimplified to accurately represent the situation.  What'd be more accurate is if there were multiple weapons, each one having an advantage against the dragon, but none guaranteed to work alone.  Also, your party members hate each other, and more than one might screw up during the fight with the dragon or turn on you.

The best approach would be to not give all the weapons to one guy so you aren't screwed if something happens to him, but don't spread them too thin, since it's no guarantee that your party members are going to work well enough together to use them effectively.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

The other races are not barbarians;

No, they are much worse.

You are seriously underestimating the politics at work here. It would be a **** storm and the Reaper may sit untouched for decades while the races decide how best to study it, who should study it, what to study, ect... 

Look at Ilos in the Renegade universe. You have the Alliance claiming the world as their own whilst the salarians insist it belongs to everybody.

Let's go off of your assumption that nobody would be able to agree how it should be studied. I admit, that is a possibility, though not an inevitability. I already showed you an example of how the races work together to better all (the Alliance attempting to hand over the Prothean Beacon to the Council; different scale, but same idea).

However, once the Reapers arrive, all of that stops. At the very least, the Council races (Asari, Salarians, Turians) will begin studying the Reaper jointly without waiting for the Hanar or Volus to agree with them. That way you at least have three of the most powerful militaries with access to that technology and information. Those three governments with a Derelict Reaper would hands down be more valuable than 150 agents with the Collector Base.

Saphra Deden wrote...

I never said Cerberus could win the war by itself. However with the right tools it can definitely help.

Assuming they get the right tools and can survive the Reapers (which isn't possible anyways), if they don't share those tools with anyone else, they'll be the only ones left.

Saphra Deden wrote...

...and didn't care.

"Denied."

Hackett is a human...

Modifié par 111987, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:26 .