578 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You don't think EDI and the IFF were crucial to victory?

It isn't Cerberus' competence that you should be questioning but rather your own.

Should have specified.  I meant the Collector Base.  EDI and the IFF slipped my mind.  Also, the Thanix canon and the Conduit were also kind of important.  Competence minus 3.

But EDI, the canon, and the Conduit were all reverse-engineered from disabled/inactive/fragmented/benevolent Reaper tech.  If it's intact/active/hostile and you intend on using it directly, that sh*t backfires.  Object Rho, Grayson's implants, the Citadel, the derelict Reaper...  Even the IFF backfired--it broadcasted the Normandy's location so the Collectors could f*ck your sh*t up.  If EDI had not been unshackled (something Cerberus would probably not have done, see Miranda's reaction and the lines of text referencing the event in the leaked script), the ship would have been lost, and if Shepard hadn't been dicking around elsewhere, the mission would have failed right there.  So while the IFF was crucial, it was also bad.

So, without Shepard and friends, the mission would have failed.  TIM was right in bringing Shep back, but it was still a high risk, high reward venture, much like everything Cerberus does.  Now, whether or not Cerberus is competent depends on whether or not you consider Shepard part of Cerberus, and everything (s)he does as credible to Cerberus because they brought him/her back to life.  Me, I always considered Shepard a temporary ally, seperate from Cerberus, but working with them for the sake of the mission.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

We really don't know enough about Cerberus to make that kind of conclusion.

Yes you do. You know their size, their goals, and you have lots of experience with their operations.

If Cerberus is dangerous to you then they are dangerous to the dragon. Who would you rather take your chances with? The dragon or Cerberus?

No I don't. I don't just believe what people tell me, for one, especially not a biased souce like the man-in-charge. Even TIM himself says you don't know him well enough to presume to know his intentions/motives. To believe what Cerberus's goals are based off what he tells you is still a presumption in itself.

My experience with their operations is limited to what I've seen of three cells: one where I'm mostly in charge anyway, one which is long-defunct (and shows they have a 0-accountability system), and another which is a repeat of the defunct cell - on a technological level. There are possibly a dozen more active cells out there with who knows how many personel and what kind of resources. We haven't a clue.

Again I ask, what's the point? The choice you're giving me is: the wolf, or the wolf in sheep's clothing? I take the wolf. At least I know what I'm working with: an enemy that has to be killed. The other probably an enemy that will fool me into helping him kill me.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So you have a brain then.

Why are you so mean to me?

Like I said, if it weren't for all the in-story reasons warning against keeping the base, I'd never blow it up, but sometimes narrative hints are stronger than just logic.  However, I stated that you analogy is innacurate, plus you are in error to assume the damn thing is required for victory.

[sh4manz]

Someone With Mass wrote...

sh4manz wrote...
The Collector Base didn't show signs of indoctrination when you went to pick up your crew, and they'd been in Collector hands much longer than your brief stay. So what's to control beyond some fancy new toys?

You mean besides the plague virus that kills pretty much everything except humans, vorcha and perhaps quarians with functioning air filters?

Oh? You mean the one Mordin Solus made a vaccination for in a relatively short amount of time? Yeah, totally dangerous, bro.

As I said, what's to control beyond some fancy new toys? Key word: FANCY

[Someone With Mass]

That cure probably won't be available in every corner of the galaxy, you know.

[111987]

sh4manz wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

sh4manz wrote...
The Collector Base didn't show signs of indoctrination when you went to pick up your crew, and they'd been in Collector hands much longer than your brief stay. So what's to control beyond some fancy new toys?

You mean besides the plague virus that kills pretty much everything except humans, vorcha and perhaps quarians with functioning air filters?

Oh? You mean the one Mordin Solus made a vaccination for in a relatively short amount of time? Yeah, totally dangerous, bro.

As I said, what's to control beyond some fancy new toys? Key word: FANCY

Mordin is one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the galaxy.

Most colonies/settlements don't have a Mordin-equivalent handy.

[sh4manz]

Someone With Mass wrote...

That cure probably won't be available in every corner of the galaxy, you know.

And Cerberus will be able to magically spread this disease instantly?

Considering their track record at keeping things secret and functioning when Shep is around... I wouldn't worry too much.

And besides, Solus could have the cure sent out to every major government, or at least instructions on how to synthesize one pretty quickly. The magic (dance magic) of the Extranet, bruh.

[Someone With Mass]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

No I don't. I don't just believe what people tell me, for one, especially not a biased souce like the man-in-charge. Even TIM himself says you don't know him well enough to presume to know his intentions/motives. To believe what Cerberus's goals are based off what he tells you is still a presumption in itself.

My experience with their operations is limited to what I've seen of three cells: one where I'm mostly in charge anyway, one which is long-defunct (and shows they have a 0-accountability system), and another which is a repeat of the defunct cell - on a technological level. There are possibly a dozen more active cells out there with who knows how many personel and what kind of resources. We haven't a clue.

Again I ask, what's the point? The choice you're giving me is: the wolf, or the wolf in sheep's clothing? I take the wolf. At least I know what I'm working with: an enemy that has to be killed. The other probably an enemy that will fool me into helping him kill me.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. We're never given any concrete evidence or any evidence for that matter beyond TIM's word (which becomes so reliable to some after all those times he's either outright lied or withheld information that could have been useful) that he's doing what his doing what he's doing for the sake of humanity or that he's willing to share potential discoveries.

I can probably not express it well enough, but I too need a little more than the leader's word.

Show, don't tell.

[sh4manz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Mordin is one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the galaxy.

Most colonies/settlements don't have a Mordin-equivalent handy.

Mordin is just one man. A very smart man, maybe the best in his field, but there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of specialists almost as good as he is. Working together I'm sure they could pull off what he did. Especially when you consider they'd be working with superior equipment, funding, and in a better environment.

And that they have the Omega cure to work off of as well.

I very much doubt Solus kept that a little secret, considering his disposition to help a large number of people at once.

[Sebbe1337o]

I knew a ****storm was imminent from the moment I had read OP's post - but I think I actually agree. I am paragade most of the time and I'm somewhat of a hybrid between those things you mentioned. I have a few friends who play either paragon or renegade most often, and they fit your profiles pretty good.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Mordin is one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the galaxy.

Most colonies/settlements don't have a Mordin-equivalent handy.

Mordin is just one man. A very smart man, maybe the best in his field, but there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of specialists almost as good as he is. Working together I'm sure they could pull off what he did. Especially when you consider they'd be working with superior equipment, funding, and in a better environment.

Agreed. But if say, the Collectors/Cerberus released the virus on Thessia, while simaltaneously the Reapers landed and did their usual thing, it could speed up the extinction process. The Asari wouldn't have the time to both develop a cure and deal with the Reapers.

The disease could be used as a way of killing off the Asari that went into hiding for example and save the Reapers the time and energy it would take to ferret them out.

Modifié par 111987, 05 décembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Again I ask, what's the point? The choice you're giving me is: the wolf, or the wolf in sheep's clothing? I take the wolf. At least I know what I'm working with: an enemy that has to be killed. The other probably an enemy that will fool me into helping him kill me.

You honestly think Cerberus is as fearsome as the Reapers?

If given the Reapers' tools while the galaxy is lying vulnerable in tatters after the war, it is entirely possible that they establish themselves as such.

The possibilites are countless. Who knows, maybe they get the seeker-swarms active again and turn it against everyone. Only they ever established the counter-measure (which only worked against seekers on a small scale). And then of course, they have the framework to create the giant machines to reap the galaxy. What's to stop them?

[sh4manz]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

What's to stop them?

Morals!

....

Bahahahahahahaha.

[Someone With Mass]

Considering that Shepard alone managed to destroy an entire star system with the right tools (AKA big ass asteroid) I don't think Cerberus should be so underestimated. They can do some serious damage too.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I gave you a compliment.

In a snarky and condescending fashion.

Ieven left the rest of your post alone precisely so I could walk away
from that exchange with a slightly higher opinion of you. Now you've
gone and put that in jeopardy.

Really, man, I'm just presenting my opinion and trying to have a nice debate with you.  You're not being an ass to anyone else.  Come on, dude, seriously.  I really enjoy debating with you when you're not insulting because you have really good ideas sometimes and help me improve my position by pointing out errors.

[rapscallioness]

@Donnstar--your OP is loaded. Your entire premise revolves around Your definitions of what is "cool", "amusing", "extraordinary" and "intelligent".

I've seen too many Renegade arguments boil down to "because I say so", rudeness and name calling.

There's nothing extraordinary about that. In fact, azzholes are running rampant these days. It is not unique, and is not my definition of cool. Although, it is sometimes humorous. Sometimes. But not nearly enough.

Cynicism is trendy and commonplace. There's this myth that somehow being jaded means you're smarter. Stronger. It doesn't. It just means you're jaded.

Are heavy Renegade players like that in real life? Well, judging by the condescension I see in a lot of their posts, probably. But I do not admire it as you do, Donnstar.

[AdmiralCheez]

darkness reborn wrote...

I'll put it this way:
TIM is like Makrov (I think I misspelled this) form CoD: MW2 and 3. You can NOT trust him in any way. Cerberus would have been better of without him.

Hey, come on now.  TIM is one of the most compelling characters in the series--it'd be a shame if he wasn't present.  I love how suave and manipulative he is.  Incredibly persuasive, really convincing liar.  I also love what a gambler he is--he'll take any risk if the reward is high enough.

It makes him a dangerous ally and one hell of a villain.

Doesn't mean I have to side with him or anything, but come on, you don't remove an important component of the series just because he's a morally bankrupt douchebag.

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...
Nope, TIM is an excellent character because he shows us how sheepish and easily duped some people in the audience are. He's like Hitler in space, only worse.

LOL.