578 réponses à ce sujet

[sh4manz]

Arcian wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

I'll put it this way:
TIM is like Makrov (I think I misspelled this) form CoD: MW2 and 3. You can NOT trust him in any way. Cerberus would have been better of without him.

Nope, TIM is an excellent character because he shows us how sheepish and easily duped some people in the audience are. He's like Hitler in space, only worse.

Hey, he hasn't tried genocide yet!

[AdmiralCheez]

darkness reborn wrote...

But he's the one who had Cerberus blacklisted as Terrorists (I don't like Cerberus at all), but Cerberus would have been better off. Look what he's done to them now.

He's been with Cerberus since its inception.  You can't separate the two.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

(regarding the Collector base)

1) it is Reaper tech and we have been warned using it before

What about mass relays, what about EDI, what about the Thanix cannon, what about the IFF? That was all Reaper tech too or it was developed after studying Reaper tech. The Collector base could provide similarly useful technologies that could save the galaxy.

2) the Illusive Man wants to use it. You may trust him but that's nowhere near a sensible or logic decision, you just feel it is the best.

Yeah, he wants to use it to defeat the Reapers. I can understand why you would fear his pro-human agenda (because you are misguided) but even in that case surely human dominance is favorable to the extinction of all sentient life?

3) Shepard is only temporary with Cerberus, he really is a Spectre and serves the Council, mine is anyway. And the Council (and the alliance) will hold it against Shepard if he gives it to Cerberus.

How do you know? Besides, you never "give" it to Cerberus. Try to understand this. TIM never asks you to give the base to him, he only asks that you not destroy it. Who exactly it is that will then possess the base is not stated, though the implication is obvious.

What is your defense here, that you denied an enemy an asset? Why is Cerberus an enemy? They are your ally in this fight.

Well yes, there is other Reaper tech we use. But if we use none of it we have no chance. The point is we can win at this point without the base. I admit it was also a metagaming decission. I just knew that the decission to keep or destroy the base won't matter to the question if we win or lose. Because Bioware wouldn't let us destroy and then screw us in ME3 by leaving us no way to win. So basically at the point I chose to destroy it I knew Shep would find another way. So basically my choice was 'Shepard is that awesome, he doesn't need the base'.

The problem with Cerberus is not that they are pro-human. It is that they are ruthless. They say they have the best interest of humans at heart, but just because they say it, it doesn't mean that it is so. Hitler said he had the best interest of germany at heart, but actually he wanted to use the germans to conquer the world. There is a difference there. The difference being that he didn't give a **** about germans when they lost and he had them all fight to death rather than giving up. While everyone knew the war was lost in 1943 millions of people still died 2 more years for nothing but one man's arrogance. Why bring up Hitler? If you compare characteristics between him and TIM you will find alot of matches. Charsimatic, ruthless, manipulating and arrogant.

Anderson warns Shepard about working with Cerberus and so does the Council. You can play different Shepards, but mine was a Spectre who takes his duty to the Council and Alliance serious. Sure, he would disregard the Council if he is certain that they are wrong. Like when he took the Normandy to get to Ilos. But whenever he can support them and harm their enemies he will do it. My Shep transmitted secret Cerberus data to the Alliance and also made sure the guy from Overlord will be treated in an Alliance institution. So logically Shep would not give TIM such a powerful tool. And let's be honest, he would have got it if Shep doesn't blow it up.

Cerberus is still considered enemy of the Alliance and the Council, and while I can accept that Shepard uses Cerberus for his goals, he never really was with Cerberus. And my Shepard never made a secret of it either. In every single dialogue with TIM I made sure to let him know that I don't trust him in the least. Giving him the base would be breaking my Shep's character. So why would I do it. My Shepard does have humanity's interests at heart, and he is much better suited to lead them to glory than TIM.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[Someone With Mass]

darkness reborn wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

But he's the one who had Cerberus blacklisted as Terrorists (I don't like Cerberus at all), but Cerberus would have been better off. Look what he's done to them now.

He's been with Cerberus since its inception.  You can't separate the two.

Well you could kill him in ME3 and let Miranda take over.

Or not let anyone take over at all and watch as his little empire burns to the ground.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Do you know something I don't?

Well I know the base isn't essential.

And you do too, don't you, Saph?

*trollface*

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Do you know something I don't?

Well I know the base isn't essential.

And you do too, don't you, Saph?

*trollface*

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

Well I admitted I am metagaming a bit. It's necessary to get my ideal playthrough. Sorry but everyone who makes more than one playthrough is metagaming because you are unconsciously doing it because you know things Shepard couldn't know.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.

But no, y'all didn't listen.  Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.

Author intent, people.  Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.

[AlexXIV]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.

But no, y'all didn't listen.  Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.

Author intent, people.  Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.

Maybe we are too genre savy. Or Bioware savy. But I have a hard time to not see certain things comming in RPGs. Even on my first playthrough.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:38 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I admitted I am metagaming a bit. It's necessary to get my ideal playthrough.

Which means I was wasting my time debating you. Though you started the debate. Why would you do that?

Well it was only one of three. The other two are plausible without metagaming. You can just ignore the first tbh.

[111987]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.

But no, y'all didn't listen.  Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.

Author intent, people.  Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.

Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.

I was tempted right then and there to reload the mission and destroy it instead for my 'canon' playthough, but I thought it would be more fun to just live with the consequences.

[AlexXIV]

111987 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.

But no, y'all didn't listen.  Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.

Author intent, people.  Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.

Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.

I was tempted right then and there to reload the mission and destroy it instead for my 'canon' playthough, but I thought it would be more fun to just live with the consequences.

I don't think any squadmates argue for keeping the base. Unless I missed one. Maybe Zaheed.

[The Elder King]

AlexXIV wrote...


I don't think any squadmates argue for keeping the base. Unless I missed one. Maybe Zaheed.

Mordin, Legion and Garrus (not sure about that one) where in favor of keeping the base. Then they changed their mind on the Normandy.

Modifié par hhh89, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes I know and I agree. This is why I am such a pessimistic idealist.

So you knew you'd inevitably be wrong about the base thing and knew you'd be mocked for defending it so adamantly.

Not that debate is bad or that playing devil's advocate is bad.  Hell, discussing the implications of certain plot events while completely disregarding author intent is great fun.  But you saw this coming.

Like I said, if I bought TIM's act even though the story kept reminding me not to, I would have saved the base.  Really, the guy is so damn convincing sometimes that I had to really focus so I wouldn't be swayed.  Remember, Cheez, this is the man that made you almost okay with the Horizon setup.

I wasn't adamant about disagreeing with him, but seriously, he's a sneaky bastard sometimes and could probably talk someone into killing their own mother.

[111987]

AlexXIV wrote...

111987 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.

I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.

But no, y'all didn't listen.  Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.

Author intent, people.  Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.

Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.

I was tempted right then and there to reload the mission and destroy it instead for my 'canon' playthough, but I thought it would be more fun to just live with the consequences.

I don't think any squadmates argue for keeping the base. Unless I missed one. Maybe Zaheed.

I know Legion, Garrus, Mordin, and Zaeed do. I think there might be one or two others as well (Jack, Grunt?).

[AlexXIV]

[quote]hhh89 wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...


[/quote]
I don't think any squadmates argue for keeping the base. Unless I missed one. Maybe Zaheed.[/quote]

Mordin, Legion and Garrus (not sure about that one) where in favor of keeping the base. Then they changed their mind on the Normandy.

[/quote]
Ah ok now I get it. I thought he was talking all about the talks afterwards. I always take Miranda on the last mission because I can get her to quit her job at Cerberus

[Medhia Nox]

Declaring the Collector Base the "secret weapon" against the Reapers once we get the "key" tech we need after reverse engineering it... is metagaming.

And - declaring the Collector Base "potentially useful" - means it's also "potentially wasteful" - validating both keeping and destroying it.

[AdmiralCheez]

111987 wrote...

Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.

I was tempted right then and there to reload the mission and destroy it instead for my 'canon' playthough, but I thought it would be more fun to just live with the consequences.

Yeah, there were a couple of times where I made a decision and regretted it immediately afterwards, but I've adhered to the zero reload policy so far.

Okay, maybe once I restarted a segment because Shepard said something so mind-numbingly stupid that I couldn't live with it, and another time on my insanity run when I realized my squadmates weren't equipped to handle the current mission (Thane + Grunt against husks didn't work as well as I'd hoped), but nope, never changed a decision, even though I was like CRAP WHY DID I DO THAT.