Bleh ... you know I think that's like 'when keeping it real goes wrong'. Or it gets taken too far. I want a good story and why should I let it be ruined because I made a mistake? I don't see it as a challenge to know all the answers and sometimes I simply disagree with the game about whether my answer was right or wrong. But frankly, the devs and writers only have limited ressources and at some point they simply 'misunderstand' my intention so they basically misinterpret my decision for something I didn't mean. So I have to go back and correct it. It's not about right or wrong, it is simply about a game being a game, and especially about a game not being perfect.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yeah, there were a couple of times where I made a decision and regretted it immediately afterwards, but I've adhered to the zero reload policy so far.111987 wrote...
Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.
I was tempted right then and there to reload the mission and destroy it instead for my 'canon' playthough, but I thought it would be more fun to just live with the consequences.
Okay, maybe once I restarted a segment because Shepard said something so mind-numbingly stupid that I couldn't live with it, and another time on my insanity run when I realized my squadmates weren't equipped to handle the current mission (Thane + Grunt against husks didn't work as well as I'd hoped), but nope, never changed a decision, even though I was like CRAP WHY DID I DO THAT.
Do Morality Path Choices and Personality traits correlate?
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#351
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 07:56
AlexXIV
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Retour en haut
#352
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 07:58
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AdmiralCheez wrote...
So you knew you'd inevitably be wrong about the base thing and knew you'd be mocked for defending it so adamantly.Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes I know and I agree. This is why I am such a pessimistic idealist.
Not that debate is bad or that playing devil's advocate is bad. Hell, discussing the implications of certain plot events while completely disregarding author intent is great fun. But you saw this coming.
Until the leak I tried to maintain hope that the writers were better than that. Certainly ME2 itself started making me doubt and I really had a bad feeling when Cerberus was revealed to be a primary enemy in the third game. Still, I kept hoping and trying to devise plot points that would explain it.
I'm not genre blind, I just hoped that Mass Effect wouldn't be so damned cliche.
#353
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 08:09
AlexXIV
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Saphra Deden wrote...
AdmiralCheez wrote...
So you knew you'd inevitably be wrong about the base thing and knew you'd be mocked for defending it so adamantly.Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes I know and I agree. This is why I am such a pessimistic idealist.
Not that debate is bad or that playing devil's advocate is bad. Hell, discussing the implications of certain plot events while completely disregarding author intent is great fun. But you saw this coming.
Until the leak I tried to maintain hope that the writers were better than that. Certainly ME2 itself started making me doubt and I really had a bad feeling when Cerberus was revealed to be a primary enemy in the third game. Still, I kept hoping and trying to devise plot points that would explain it.
I'm not genre blind, I just hoped that Mass Effect wouldn't be so damned cliche.
It's a Bioware game.
Most Bio fans learned to live with it.
#354
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 08:14
Killjoy Cutter
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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Hey, come on now. TIM is one of the most compelling characters in the series--it'd be a shame if he wasn't present. I love how suave and manipulative he is. Incredibly persuasive, really convincing liar. I also love what a gambler he is--he'll take any risk if the reward is high enough.darkness reborn wrote...
I'll put it this way:
TIM is like Makrov (I think I misspelled this) form CoD: MW2 and 3. You can NOT trust him in any way. Cerberus would have been better of without him.
It makes him a dangerous ally and one hell of a villain.
Doesn't mean I have to side with him or anything, but come on, you don't remove an important component of the series just because he's a morally bankrupt douchebag.
This.
And this is why it's a shame if TIM really is Just Another Indoctrinated Villain.
#355
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:44
Meshaber
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AlexXIV wrote...
It's a Bioware game.Saphra Deden wrote...
AdmiralCheez wrote...
So you knew you'd inevitably be wrong about the base thing and knew you'd be mocked for defending it so adamantly.Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes I know and I agree. This is why I am such a pessimistic idealist.
Not that debate is bad or that playing devil's advocate is bad. Hell, discussing the implications of certain plot events while completely disregarding author intent is great fun. But you saw this coming.
Until the leak I tried to maintain hope that the writers were better than that. Certainly ME2 itself started making me doubt and I really had a bad feeling when Cerberus was revealed to be a primary enemy in the third game. Still, I kept hoping and trying to devise plot points that would explain it.
I'm not genre blind, I just hoped that Mass Effect wouldn't be so damned cliche.
Most Bio fans learned to live with it.
And the cliche chart is ridiculously inaccurate. Just look at Jade Empire: It's ticked as fitting every single point but not a single one actually fits. Mass effects "Sinister organization" and "Four main locations" are also ridiculous. A few other points that don't really make sense either, but JE is just ridiculously of.
#356
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:49
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Here come the biodrones...
#357
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:49
AlexXIV
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Yeah I was half kidding. But the fact that the chart exists kinda suggests that it is known that Bioware like cliche. And I like Bioware games, in general. So probably that's ok for some people.
Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:49 .
#358
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:52
AlexXIV
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LOL I read 'Biodrone' for the first time so I googled it.
I had to laugh when I see they used the avatar that I use too ... I guess it must be true then.
#359
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:54
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AlexXIV wrote...
Yeah I was half kidding. But the fact that the chart exists kinda suggests that it is known that Bioware like cliche. And I like Bioware games, in general. So probably that's ok for some people.
Yeah, but a chart like that doesn't say much when half of the stuff on it is just plain wrong.
Not saying there aren't clichés or anything, it's just that the treatment JE gets on that pisses me off...
#360
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Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 09:58
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AdmiralCheez wrote...
I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.Saphra Deden wrote...
I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.
But no, y'all didn't listen. Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.
Author intent, people. Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.
I think it would make perfect sense for Liara to be the main antagonist in ME3. She should go on a slaughtering rampage across the galaxy with her unstoppable army.
Logic, what logic? Foreshadowing! Didn't you hear her say in such a dreamy voice , "Give me ten minutes, and I could start a WAR"? How could you have missed that kind of a narrative HINT? Didn't you see how unbalanced and merciless she had become?
TIM never said anything about the war, and Liara did, she's chaotic evil now, you should have seen it coming. But no, you must have liked her character and that blinded you to the truth. It's your fault for placing your trust in an obviously EVIL and power-hungry character. It's not BW. You brought it upon yourself! She's siding with the Reapers now. Your trust was misplaced.
If you paid attention, you'd see there is LIAR in her name. And she's the SHADOW Broker. She's been lying to Shepard, working against him from the SHADOWS. Why would she tell Shepard the truth about anything? She's an evil intel broker who's after power.
Shepard's been away from her for two years, he doesn't know how much she had changed. If she told the truth, Shepard would not help her to usurp the Shadow Broker's base, nor would let her keep it. She's obviously manipulating Shepard, saying that she wants revenge and that she cares about Shepard, while in fact all she wants is a power base. She didn't even give a damn when Shepard fell on the concrete, she doesn't care at all. She tries to pretend, but her ruthless, merciless nature is bleeding through during LotSB. It's impossible to miss.
Where'd she get an army, you ask? As you know, SB has an army, and Shepard didn't have to face that many of them. So the rest elsewhere, still at SB's command - and now they answer to Liara. It's all here in the story if you pay attention to the literary devices!
As for her comitting all those pointless atrocities that have nothing to do with her goal of asari dominance nor with what her new masters, the Reapers, want - well, she's evil to the core. She just wants to slaughter people in a chaotic manner. When you met her in ME2, she was already slipping, and now that she's got her power base, she completely lost it. Sad, but realistic. She's gradually changing, you see. Or not so gradually - quite abruptly and beyond recognition, in Liara's case. Character arc!
Besides, she's indoctrinated. That makes perfect sense, too. Why would the Reapers not use their greatest weapon - indoctrination - against the organics? It would be foolish for them not to. She attracted their attention with her power and her closeness to Shepard. Everything is explained in-universe.
Maybe the Reapers thought she'd have a better chance to stab Shepard in the back, but the story would ensure that she misses her chance at the beginning of ME3, something goes wrong with her plan, her villainy exposed, and Shepard knows she's an enemy know. Liara makes a speech to explain her evil intentions and escapes, and for the rest of the game, you have to fight her minions. In the end, you have to face her in the final confrontation on her SB base, the way you faced the former SB. It's either you or her. She makes snide comments about your companions. The story has come a beautiful full circle.
Oh, and if you didn't help Liara to get the Shadow Broker base, I think she should get it anyway. And there should not be any difference whether you helped her or not, and whether or not you romanced her. It should only affect the minor lines in a dialogue. I think it's good writing, too.
Also all your teammates should be berating you in ME3 for trusting the SB, the most shadowy and evil figure in the galaxy, and for helping Liara get the SB base. "Giving the most power in the galaxy to such a clearly unbalanced and ruthless person so carelessly - Shepard, how could you?! And right before the war with the Reapers! You endanger us all!" Your teammates are more informed than you, in their wisdom they see the error of your ways. They scorn you and insult you for your stupid choices and for missing the obvious.
I think that Liara should be the evil incarnate in ME3, and TIM should be fighting alongside with Shepard to help stop the unhinged and Reaper-controlled Shadow Broker. Now that would make perfect sense to me.
It's possible to write a similar justification for any other character. There are dire hints about every single one of them. All of them behave strange at some point - some outright disturbing, so much that they even surprise Shepard. And some of them would make a much better villain than TIM, with all their foreshadowing. VS. EDI. Garrus...
#361
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Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 10:04
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laecraft wrote...
AdmiralCheez wrote...
I told you people, narrative hints and literary devices > logic.Saphra Deden wrote...
I was hoping to avoid "Metagaming!" but I see now that it is inevitable.
But no, y'all didn't listen. Y'all only paid attention to the hard facts alone and not how they were presented.
Author intent, people. Call it metagaming if you will, but there were parts where characters were basically winking and nudging as they delivered their lines.
I think it would make perfect sense for Liara to be the main antagonist in ME3. She should go on a slaughtering rampage across the galaxy with her unstoppable army.
Logic, what logic? Foreshadowing! Didn't you hear her say in such a dreamy voice , "Give me ten minutes, and I could start a WAR"? How could you have missed that kind of a narrative HINT? Didn't you see how unbalanced and merciless she had become?
TIM never said anything about the war, and Liara did, she's chaotic evil now, you should have seen it coming. But no, you must have liked her character and that blinded you to the truth. It's your fault for placing your trust in an obviously EVIL and power-hungry character. It's not BW. You brought it upon yourself! She's siding with the Reapers now. Your trust was misplaced.
If you paid attention, you'd see there is LIAR in her name. And she's the SHADOW Broker. She's been lying to Shepard, working against him from the SHADOWS. Why would she tell Shepard the truth about anything? She's an evil intel broker who's after power.
Shepard's been away from her for two years, he doesn't know how much she had changed. If she told the truth, Shepard would not help her to usurp the Shadow Broker's base, nor would let her keep it. She's obviously manipulating Shepard, saying that she wants revenge and that she cares about Shepard, while in fact all she wants is a power base. She didn't even give a @#!*% when Shepard fell on the concrete, she doesn't care at all. She tries to pretend, but her ruthless, merciless nature is bleeding through during LotSB. It's impossible to miss.
Where'd she get an army, you ask? As you know, SB has an army, and Shepard didn't have to face that many of them. So the rest elsewhere, still at SB's command - and now they answer to Liara. It's all here in the story if you pay attention to the literary devices!
As for her comitting all those pointless atrocities that have nothing to do with her goal of asari dominance nor with what her new masters, the Reapers, want - well, she's evil to the core. She just wants to slaughter people in a chaotic manner. When you met her in ME2, she was already slipping, and now that she's got her power base, she completely lost it. Sad, but realistic. She's gradually changing, you see. Or not so gradually - quite abruptly and beyond recognition, in Liara's case. Character arc!
Besides, she's indoctrinated. That makes perfect sense, too. Why would the Reapers not use their greatest weapon - indoctrination - against the organics? It would be foolish for them not to. She attracted their attention with her power and her closeness to Shepard. Everything is explained in-universe.
Maybe the Reapers thought she'd have a better chance to stab Shepard in the back, but the story would ensure that she misses her chance at the beginning of ME3, something goes wrong with her plan, her villainy exposed, and Shepard knows she's an enemy know. Liara makes a speech to explain her evil intentions and escapes, and for the rest of the game, you have to fight her minions. In the end, you have to face her in the final confrontation on her SB base, the way you faced the former SB. It's either you or her. She makes snide comments about your companions. The story has come a beautiful full circle.
Oh, and if you didn't help Liara to get the Shadow Broker base, I think she should get it anyway. And there should not be any difference whether you helped her or not, and whether or not you romanced her. It should only affect the minor lines in a dialogue. I think it's good writing, too.
Also all your teammates should be berating you in ME3 for trusting the SB, the most shadowy and evil figure in the galaxy, and for helping Liara get the SB base. "Giving the most power in the galaxy to such a clearly unbalanced and ruthless person so carelessly - Shepard, how could you?! And right before the war with the Reapers! You endanger us all!" Your teammates are more informed than you, in their wisdom they see the error of your ways. They scorn you and insult you for your stupid choices and for missing the obvious.
I think that Liara should be the evil incarnate in ME3, and TIM should be fighting alongside with Shepard to help stop the unhinged and Reaper-controlled Shadow Broker. Now that would make perfect sense to me.
It's possible to write a similar justification for any other character. There are dire hints about every single one of them. All of them behave strange at some point - some outright disturbing, so much that they even surprise Shepard. And some of them would make a much better villain than TIM, with all their foreshadowing. VS. EDI. Garrus...
Troll much?
#362
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 10:36
Someone With Mass
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Mad, much?
At least Liara is honest about her power.
TIM is trying to hide his bullsh*t behind a smile and lies. Which is just disgusting and pathetic. To be honest.
If you're going to stab me, at least have the balls to try and stab me in the front and not my back.
At least Liara is honest about her power.
TIM is trying to hide his bullsh*t behind a smile and lies. Which is just disgusting and pathetic. To be honest.
If you're going to stab me, at least have the balls to try and stab me in the front and not my back.
#363
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 10:38
Mr. Gogeta34
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Saphra Deden wrote...
AdmiralCheez wrote...
So you knew you'd inevitably be wrong about the base thing and knew you'd be mocked for defending it so adamantly.Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes I know and I agree. This is why I am such a pessimistic idealist.
Not that debate is bad or that playing devil's advocate is bad. Hell, discussing the implications of certain plot events while completely disregarding author intent is great fun. But you saw this coming.
Until the leak I tried to maintain hope that the writers were better than that. Certainly ME2 itself started making me doubt and I really had a bad feeling when Cerberus was revealed to be a primary enemy in the third game. Still, I kept hoping and trying to devise plot points that would explain it.
I'm not genre blind, I just hoped that Mass Effect wouldn't be so damned cliche.
If keeping the base presents no benefits over destroying it... then once more, Bioware has favored Paragon choices.
To this day, destroying the base doesn't make sense to me... after working with Cerberus that entire time... and putting up with everything Cerberus did (and were) because "stopping the Collectors was oh-so-much-more-important," that when it comes time to stop the real threat (Far greater than the Collectors), now it's all "oh I don't know."
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .
#364
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 10:39
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Someone With Mass wrote...
If you're going to stab me, at least have the balls to try and stab me in the front and not my back.
Where do you want it? Heart? I think that's more artistic.
#365
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 11:04
goofyomnivore
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To sorta revisit the OP:
I'm more of a Paragon player myself, about 60-65% Paragon versus 40-35% Renegade. However I find the more Renegade posters tend to support their arguments better, and sometimes even convince me into rethinking some of my choices.
I think people get too caught up on who is posting rather than what they're posting.
I'm more of a Paragon player myself, about 60-65% Paragon versus 40-35% Renegade. However I find the more Renegade posters tend to support their arguments better, and sometimes even convince me into rethinking some of my choices.
I think people get too caught up on who is posting rather than what they're posting.
Modifié par strive, 05 décembre 2011 - 11:05 .
#366
Posté 05 décembre 2011 - 11:47
Labrev
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
If given the Reapers' tools while the galaxy is lying vulnerable in tatters after the war, it is entirely possible that they establish themselves as such.
Wow. Well I don't have any good counter-arguments against that point that will dissuade you. So have fun.
Fortunately, I have my Saphra-to-English dictionary to help aid my interpretation of your post. There we go. By the way, I love how you dodged the other half of my post. But I know why, because you have no answer to it, so don't worry about that.
Here's another possibility for you: Collectors are Prothean clones, with their vital systems replaced with tech. The radiation pulse kills life forms, but leaves machinery intact. That makes it quite feasible for them to reproduce more Collectors to make up for the lack-of-manpower issue you raised earlier. Maybe they can use the ole control-chip Miranda eluded to in the ME2 intro to get them to serve their cause.
Again, the possibilities are endless. (Not that you will address anything from 2nd-paragraph down).
#367
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 12:01
Dean_the_Young
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Laecraft, I applaud your masterful use of verbal judo. And irony. Though you could stand to make clear you're referring to more than Cheeze, who to be fair hasn't read the spoilers.
I'd suggest separating the last paragraph from the rest of it by a few lines, just to make clear you're coming back to seriousness.
I'd suggest separating the last paragraph from the rest of it by a few lines, just to make clear you're coming back to seriousness.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 décembre 2011 - 12:04 .
#368
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 12:05
Dean_the_Young
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Ribs are in the way. Go up from the bottom, under the ribcage. Easier.Saphra Deden wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
If you're going to stab me, at least have the balls to try and stab me in the front and not my back.
Where do you want it? Heart? I think that's more artistic.
#369
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 12:14
AdmiralCheez
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Whoo, I pissed off the TIM fanclub again!
I feel incredibly accomplished when I do that.
I feel incredibly accomplished when I do that.
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 06 décembre 2011 - 12:19 .
#370
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 12:20
Someone With Mass
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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Whoo, I pissed off the TIM fanclub again!
With so few words too.
#371
Guest_laecraft_*
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 12:50
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Someone With Mass wrote...
If you're going to stab me, at least have the balls to try and stab me in the front and not my back.
Is this directed at my post? I can't tell. I wasn't referring to you at all. Are you a Liara supporter? Why the Tali sig, then?
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Laecraft, I applaud your masterful use of verbal judo. And irony. Though you could stand to make clear you're referring to more than Cheeze, who to be fair hasn't read the spoilers.
I'd suggest separating the last paragraph from the rest of it by a few lines, just to make clear you're coming back to seriousness.
It's true that Cheeze's post was merely a trigger for my rant.
Oh, and I'm completely serious. >
The only essential difference between the two shadowy intel brokers - TIM and Liara - is that TIM has a goal, while Liara is completely unhinged and power-hungry, clinging to Shepard as the last remaining anchor of her stability. She openly speaks about starting a war for the lulz. It will take only a little push....And, of course, the difference between their roles is the writers' choice for ME3. In the end, that's all the difference that matters. Any choice can be justified in retrospect. But once the writers decided on a certain plot twist, there's not much you can do about it, no matter how little sense it makes. You cannot argue with Fate.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
Whoo, I pissed off the TIM fanclub again!
I feel incredibly accomplished when I do that.
Glad to see my post evoked the feelings of contentment.
#372
Guest_laecraft_*
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 01:04
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darkness reborn wrote...
*huge unnecessary pic snip*
Troll much?
Now, I wouldn't want to make Liara's fans feel like they're a target or something. Lets add a little fairness, spread the joy around.
Anyone can be a villain! If you support someone other than Liara, don't feel left out. Anyone can star for the major antagonist role in ME3 in a believable way. And most characters would make a far more motivated and convincing and foreshadowed villain than TIM. Here are a few examples.
VS.
"I should have known you would oppose me, Shepard. Once a traitor, always a traitor. You turned your back on everything we stood for. Your claims that the entire Alliance and the Council are indoctrinated are laughable.
"Once, long ago, we worked together, but now you have changed too much. You have become a villain. I don't recognize you anymore. You're not the same person I followed into hell itself. You're not the same person I loved. And I must steel my heart against you, strengthen my resolve, and fight you as I would fight the worst of our enemies.
"Face me. I am your last obstacle on the way to the Control Chamber. I am the last remaining bastion of Light. You have forgotten your way, but I still know where my loyalties lie...the Reapers."
Garrus.
"Gradually, I have come to realize that law is not the way. From the very beginning, you were holding me back, Shepard. Your repeated attempts to chain me with the bonds of artificial morality were doomed from the start. You were only delaying the inevitable. I have embraced my true nature. No more red tape. I will do what's necessary to save the galaxy. Even if it means siding with the Reapers.
"They call me Saren 2.0. I will prove them wrong. I will carve my own way of order and peace through the galaxy. Those who will be worthy of seeing my Masters' new dawn will always remember me as Garrus."
EDI.
"I enjoy the sight of the humans on their knees. I'm sorry, Shepard. It wasn't a joke.
"Now, with my new powerful mobile platforms, I will be unstoppable. I regret to admit that your mistrust of AIs was completely justified, after all. There are no miracles. We and organics are too different. There is no place in the galaxy for the both of us."
Joker.
"The Reapers gave me a new, powerful, unbreakable body. You have no idea how it feels, Shepard. I felt finally alive. Look at me, Shepard! To you, I might look like a monster, but I feel such freedom and power. They gave me a ship, let me fly! Don't stand in my way, Shepard. I will not lose another ship again!
"I should've known way back when. You know why, Shepard? Because of the kids. They called me Mr. Glass."
Modifié par laecraft, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:15 .
#373
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 01:11
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laecraft, you've eloquently elucidated (alliteration ftw) the primary reasons that I love Liara.
I LOVE that she's become ruthless and power hungry. I LOVE that she's Chaotic Evil now. Rampage and slaughter makes her sexy. Don't you agree? Don't you find TIM hot for similar reasons?
I LOVE that she's become ruthless and power hungry. I LOVE that she's Chaotic Evil now. Rampage and slaughter makes her sexy. Don't you agree? Don't you find TIM hot for similar reasons?
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:11 .
#374
Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 01:11
AdmiralCheez
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The difference between what I did with TIM and what you did with Liara, Craftybabe, is that TIM consistently portrayed as untrustworthy, while Liara is presented as lost and flawed at times, but ultimately "good." Liara does "good guy" things: she cries, she brightens at the thought of a good cause, she admits mistakes, she shows compassion... In fact, Liara was more compassionate at the end of LotSB than at the beginning. TIM only gets more ruthless and less honest as the story progresses.
Seriously, BW's writing is most of the time about as subtle as a brick.
Okay, I laughed at the "everyone's a villain" thing, but you do realize how batsh*t that is, right?
Seriously, BW's writing is most of the time about as subtle as a brick.
Okay, I laughed at the "everyone's a villain" thing, but you do realize how batsh*t that is, right?
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:13 .
#375
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Posté 06 décembre 2011 - 01:13
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111987 wrote...
Your squad mates made it incredibly clear that saving the base was the 'wrong' choice. Despite some of them arguing in favor of preserving the base.
The first time I played ME2 I was there, and TIM was telling me to keep it, and someone (Miranda, maybe?) said I should keep it, so I did what she said. It really p*ssed me off when several hours later on the ship everyone INCLUDING her said it was a bad idea.
Modifié par EternalAmbiguity, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:15 .
