578 réponses à ce sujet

[Laser Beam]

Donnstar wrote...


Renegades make theirselves known.

Paragons blend into the background. I'm not surprised you are a paragon.

I will tell you one thing. You are standing out. And you managed to turn Renegade into a hipster posse.

Kudos.

[AdmiralCheez]

Donnstar wrote...

And the people who play as Paragon like to reaffirm the status quo?

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Slow down, tiger.

Rachni queen - status quo is that rachni are extinct.  Saving the queen, and thus letting the race repopulate, is definitely NOT "preserving the status quo."

Genophage - curing the damn thing would result in a major power/population shift.  Paragon is presented as pro-cure, renegade as anti-cure.

Additionally, renegades follow the rules by "putting the mission first."  Paragons break them by giving crooks a second chance.

So again, you're wrong.  Your idea of paragon/renegade is completely off the mark, largely because what the game presents as paragon/renegade is often inconsistent.

[Donnstar]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I think you're confusing "derailing abilities" (Zeel) with "debating abilities." Do you know what a debate is, OP? It's where two people argue their side of an issue, provide counter-arguments and counter-counters and so on. Not derailing. Derailing is the opposite of good debate.

Eternal Ambiguity. You need to get over whatever "beef" you have with Zeel. He can debate.

His derailing abilities are important here, because he uses his debating abilities to derail.
I've seen it.


If the only argument you have is "he's too agressive!!!" then this debate is over.

[Donnstar]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Donnstar wrote...

And the people who play as Paragon like to reaffirm the status quo?

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Slow down, tiger.

Rachni queen - status quo is that rachni are extinct.  Saving the queen, and thus letting the race repopulate, is definitely NOT "preserving the status quo."

Genophage - curing the damn thing would result in a major power/population shift.  Paragon is presented as pro-cure, renegade as anti-cure.

Additionally, renegades follow the rules by "putting the mission first."  Paragons break them by giving crooks a second chance.

So again, you're wrong.  Your idea of paragon/renegade is completely off the mark, largely because what the game presents as paragon/renegade is often inconsistent.

Just because a few choice are off, doesn't mean there isn't a general concept of what Paragon and Renegade is.

Paragon = Status quo
Renegade = Rulebreaker.


I would also disagree with genophage and saving rachni being against status quo. These choices are simply of a different status quo "Everyone deserves a second chance" <-------- Paragons are good at this status quo.

Modifié par Donnstar, 04 décembre 2011 - 08:41 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Anyway, this Donnstar guy seems to be a little too community savvy to have only joined two weeks ago.

Whose sock are you, sweetie?

EDIT: Oh grammar, you sneaky bastard.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 04 décembre 2011 - 08:45 .

[Donnstar]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Anyway, this Donnstar guy seems to be a little too community savvy to have only joined two weeks ago.

Who's sock are you, sweetie?

Three weeks actually. 

More than enough time. Cupcakes.

[AdmiralCheez]

Donnstar wrote...

Just because a few choice are off, doesn't mean there isn't a general concept of what Paragon and Renegade is.

Paragon = Status quo
Renegade = Rulebreaker.


I would also disagree with genophage and saving rachni being against status quo. These choices are simply of a different status quo "Everyone deserves a second chance" <-------- Paragons are good at this status quo.

Smells like semantic bullsh*t and goalpost moving to me.  I offer a counterpoint, you change the definition.  Additionally, a lot of this stuff is subjective--what's status quo and what isn't largely depends on the immediate environment.

If anything, this status quo/rulebreaker dynamic makes renegades seem about as cool as those kids who wore all black and smoked in high school.  Edgy, man.  Like, soooo anti-establishment.

[Donnstar]

jreezy wrote...

Derail: To keep from happening

Debate:To engage in argument by discussing opposing points

_rolls eyes_



Can some renegades disagree with me please. These paragon arguments are getting a tad stale.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

For the establishing of a good situation sometimes you have to do renegade actions. You paragons are in nutshell.

[AdmiralCheez]

Donnstar wrote...

Three weeks actually. 

More than enough time. Cupcakes.

Yep.  Definitely a sock.  Can't put my finger on who.  Not smooth or snooty enough to be Kaiser.  Not self-important and insulting enough to be Saph.

Guys, help me out here.

[Laser Beam]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

For the establishing of a good situation sometimes you have to do renegade actions. You paragons are in nutshell.

Likewise with Renegades.

[Donnstar]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Donnstar wrote...

Just because a few choice are off, doesn't mean there isn't a general concept of what Paragon and Renegade is.

Paragon = Status quo
Renegade = Rulebreaker.


I would also disagree with genophage and saving rachni being against status quo. These choices are simply of a different status quo "Everyone deserves a second chance" <-------- Paragons are good at this status quo.

Smells like semantic bullsh*t and goalpost moving to me.  I offer a counterpoint, you change the definition.  Additionally, a lot of this stuff is subjective--what's status quo and what isn't largely depends on the immediate environment.

If anything, this status quo/rulebreaker dynamic makes renegades seem about as cool as those kids who wore all black and smoked in high school.  Edgy, man.  Like, soooo anti-establishment.

it's funny that you're accusing me of what you're doing.  You are the one who began to play semantics. "Oh this choice is not paragon, blah blah"


Then you began to move the goalposts "well this isn't exactly paragon so bleh you"

Despite what you believe, I'm just offering you my counterpoint. If you can not counter it then that's that.

I think we need a renegade in here. This whole paragons teaming up and bashing renegades is getting tiring.

[onelifecrisis]

Donnstar wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Donnstar wrote...

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

" , Saphra Dedan, Zeel, Kaiser, etc, etc. They tend to be controversial, but I find most of their posts are on point, humourous and generally dismissive of Bioware's claims. " I agree with this.. But to a certain extent... Well with Zeel and Kaiser. I dont knomw Saphra or Dedan.. Not sure what to make of with the other things you said.

I might be mispelling his name, I'll go check. 
All three of them are what BSN might consider a troll. Some of their posts are just meant to provoke but other times when they're being serious they know how to handle theirselves. I've disagreed with them from time to time, but they've always presented good reasoning to back up their position.

Where as, I feel, whenever reading their opponents posts (usually a paragon, go figure) their arguments are shallow and not well-thought out.


Let me repeat, I am not saying intelligence is exclusively Renegade. I'm saying, the few renegades we do have tend to be extraordinary.

Okay, firstly... Zeel?

But apart from that one I see what you're saying, but maybe it's an effect rather than a cause. As you said, paragon is the status quo. Perhaps an "ordinary" renegade who can't do a good job of defending their position is going to get ripped apart by the more intelligent paragons, and just trolled by the less intelligent ones, with the result being that only the smart ones remain on the forum. Just a thought.

Why do people keep challenging Zeel's legitmacy on the list?

 I thought it was pretty obvious that he can debate. Why do you think he's able to derail so many topics, so quickly?
If you wish to dismiss him as just a troll. Well then, he's a good troll.

Saphra Dedan also, debates very well. He is no-nonsense type.

Kaiser of course handles himself expertly. 

I don't know how its even an argument that these three can't debate or that they aren't entertaining. Have you seen the average poster on this board?

Zeel is a great troll, one of the most entertaining I've seen, but his ability to derail threads is nothing special. It's easy to derail threads.

But you seem to have focused in on that one part of my post and ignored the rest of it. I wonder...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Laser Beam wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

For the establishing of a good situation sometimes you have to do renegade actions. You paragons are in nutshell.

Likewise with Renegades.

We have studied the most important theories about how to deal with hard situations of War and Politics, and how to find the best way to do more good.

And this is not about those jerk kind of renegades who want to shoot people for the laugh of it.

You follow your sacred code of rightism.

[Donnstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Serious discussion: There seems to be two types of Renegade players from what I've seen, where I (and many others) fall into one group which was formerly Paragon but eventually developed to see the world with cybernetic zombie Shepard eyes (or they've always seen it from this point of view) and the other group which consists of people who find Renegade humorous or just enjoy shooting people in the face.

The people you seem to mention are those which fall into the first group of people, those you'll see often arguing their viewpoint against others who have the opposite viewpoint. Though, due to the nature of the morality and the sheer number of paragon players, you'll notice the Renegade player arguing his or her point of view far more than the Paragon who does the same.

Does this mean that the average Renegade player is "cool" or does this mean they stand out amongst the sea of Paragon? I've become rather well known by a few others as being pro-Templar and pro-Renegade (made it my signature when I was being addressed as such ), both controversial opinions on these boards, though this doesn't stop other Paragon or pro-Mage (for DA:O/DA2) players from being well known for their opinions either.

Interesting argument. Not sure that I agree. If there's so much paragons, why don't I see more extraordinary paragon members? It's always renegades. I can understand the contrast boosting up renegade members but no cool paragons members at all? That's something that doesn't fit in your argument.

[DiebytheSword]

While I will say that most of the players that you have identified are intelligent and can debate well when they want to, not all of them choose so.

I know if I engage Dean the Young in a serious conversation he will engage in return. Same runs for some of the other pro-cerberus and pro-renegade guys. Zeel does not always engage in debate, but you can get him to do so from time to time. I feel that generalizations are usually not something I would prefer to engage in, as it serves no purpose when you are dealing with individuals in the end. While they group together and circle the wagons around their cherished causes (who doesn't), they don't necessarily agree at all times. Xilihira (sp?) is an intelligent paragon debater, if you want an example from the other side. 111987 is, in my opinion, another who tends paragon and presents his arguments well. They exist on both sides, and both sides have their blathering idiots. Pragmatic/Realists tend to float renegade, where Idealistic/Optimists tend to go Paragon. Both sides also have their trolls who will resort to name calling before debating honestly about the subject at hand.

[Donnstar]

DiebytheSword wrote...

While I will say that most of the players that you have identified are intelligent and can debate well when they want to, not all of them choose so.

I know if I engage Dean the Young in a serious conversation he will engage in return. Same runs for some of the other pro-cerberus and pro-renegade guys. Zeel does not always engage in debate, but you can get him to do so from time to time. I feel that generalizations are usually not something I would prefer to engage in, as it serves no purpose when you are dealing with individuals in the end. While they group together and circle the wagons around their cherished causes (who doesn't), they don't necessarily agree at all times. Xilihira (sp?) is an intelligent paragon debater, if you want an example from the other side. 111987 is, in my opinion, another who tends paragon and presents his arguments well. They exist on both sides, and both sides have their blathering idiots. Pragmatic/Realists tend to float renegade, where Idealistic/Optimists tend to go Paragon. Both sides also have their trolls who will resort to name calling before debating honestly about the subject at hand.

I am sure there are many good debaters on the Paragon side. They seem to be dwarfed by the Renegade side is my point.

Your last few sentences I agree with though. Renegades = realist. Paragons = idealist. Why does this translate into better debaters for one side, though?