130 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

So I have participated in and observed a number of threads that have discussed the topic of "scripted deaths" of particular characters, or even "scripted deaths" at certain points in the story in which a character has to die even though it could be a number of different characters who could do the dying.  I have seen a lot of people saying that they do not want any scripted deaths. 

Here is my assertion: Scripted deaths of characters are no different than any other scripted event in the game.  The deal is that the more scripted events there are in a game, the less control the player has over the narrative.  Having a game in which every narrative event is scripted is not necessarily a bad thing (an example of this is any Zelda game, which are all great by the way), and it does not mean that the game isn't an RPG. 

Using the Zelda example, we the player are role-playing as Link, but the role-playing parameters are completely pre-defined.  We can still enjoy playing the role without needing to mold the character to our individual tastes.  Also, Link must go down a particular path, through a particular chain of narrative events with hardly any deviation.

The other extreme (opposite of Zelda role-playing) is the Skyrim paradigm.  In this RPG, we the player are given a near-blank canvass of a character for us to paint a personality/physical appearance onto.  There are still parameters (Dragonborn, must be one of nine races not a jellyfish, badass), but they are so flexible as to be almost negligible.  On top of that, the narrative, while held together loosely by an overarching plot, is extremely flexible unlike in Zelda.

And then we have Mass Effect.  Mass Effect falls somewhere between the Zelda and Skyrim role playing paradigms.  Commander Shepard is not nearly as pre-defined as Link, yet he is certainly not as malleable as the Dragonborn in Skyrim.  The path that Commander Shepard takes can be tweaked and strayed from, but the overarching plot always course-corrects him/her back onto the main set path.  Shepard must follow Saren through the Conduit.  Shepard must die and be brought back to life through the Lazarus Project.  Shepard must join Cerberus to combat the Collectors.  Shepard must sacrifice a Batarian solar system to stifle the Reaper's plans.  Unlike Zelda, we can decide to a degree how these things happen, but unlike Skyrim we cannot take a narrative path around them.

My point is this: do not be upset by scripted character deaths or any other scripted events in ME3.  Mass Effect has never been about complete player control, and this isn't a bad thing.  Skyrim is a great game because it has complete player control, but it also suffers from a narrative standpoint because of that very aspect.  Without some developer/writer/director sheparding (excuse the pun), the story will inevitably suffer.  If a scripted death is beneficial to the narrative, then it is not "Bioware taking away player choice."  Rather, it is Bioware enhancing our gameplay experience.  Striking the balance between great storytelling (Uncharted) and player freedom (Skyrim) is not easy to do, but Mass Effect has so far delivered in spades. 

And of final note: To those who would be upset if X character dies in ME3, do you really want a galactic war to maintain the status quo?  A war on the scale of ME3's war will bring change and destruction, and while I would certainly miss Liara or Garrus or Joker or many others, a static, unchanged galaxy in the wake of a galactic war would undermine the storytelling and that would be far more disconcerting to me than "losing a squadmate/friend."  Also, remember that realistically, we are losing all of our squadmates at the end of ME3 anyway, since it is the last game of Shepard's story.  Whether they "live" or not at the end is irrelevant in terms of us continuing to experience them as characters.  Even if they are still "alive" in the diegesis, the game will be over.  Even if they are "dead" in the diegesis, they will still live on in our memories of Mass Effect.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 04 décembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Ticktank]

If their favourite character survives, it'll save them the trouble of doing up awful fanfics/fanart showing them alive and pregnant with Shepard's child.

[Edit] I think its fair I gave you a better reply, since you did take time to write this post. I agree that ME3 is about all out war, and in war, losses are inevitable. I'm fully expecting some squadmates to be killed, perhaps unavoidably. But I'm just hoping that BW scripts the deaths properly i.e. with logic, meaning and good taste. If you've read the leaks, there's one version where a certain character will die in a really stupid situation.

Obi Wan or Qui'Gonn getting sliced = meaningful death.
Guy jumping off the sinking Titanic and hitting the propeller on the way down = dumb death.

Modifié par Ticktank, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:09 .

[MassStorm]

I hate scripted deaths of characters i like...so you can write whatever you want i DO NOT want unavoidable deaths for Shepard and/or his companions

[Biotic Sage]

MassStorm wrote...

I hate scripted deaths of characters i like...so you can write whatever you want i DO NOT want unavoidable deaths for Shepard and/or his companions

And you can continue to hate them.  However, if you are going to respond to the OP, then respond to it.  You are just reiterating an assertion you have already made without engaging in discussion.

[Exia001]

I'm not really too fussed about the death as long as:
A) There are a mixture of scripted and unscripted deaths
They are done well.
C) At no point ever there a situation like No one left behind, its a war ergo a bit of death must occur. even if it is Garrus

[Biotic Sage]

Exia001 wrote...

I'm not really too fussed about the death as long as:
A) There are a mixture of scripted and unscripted deaths
They are done well.
C) At no point ever there a situation like No one left behind, its a war ergo a bit of death must occur. even if it is Garrus

And I think Bioware has shown us with ME1 and ME2 that this is exactly what we can expect.  Striking that balance of inevitability and player agency is tough to do, but oh so sweet when it is struck.

[Eckswhyzee]

@OP

Excellent points. You wrote:

"Without some developer/writer/director sheparding (excuse the pun), the story will inevitably suffer.  If a scripted death is beneficial to the narrative, then it is not "Bioware taking away player choice."  Rather, it is Bioware enhancing our gameplay experience.  Striking the balance between great storytelling (Uncharted) and player freedom (Skyrim) is not easy to do, but Mass Effect has so far delivered in spades. "

I suppose that's what the catch is (bolded). I was personally unsatisfied by Virmire, and can't recall any scripted deaths right now which were parrticularly moving for me. Of course, that's a failure of my own imagination.

Anyway, if someone has to die, I had better weep great manly tears.

Of manliness.

[AdmiralCheez]

I have no problem with squadmate deaths. It's a powerful, if a bit overused, narrative tool.

However, having the same damn squadmate die every time makes the investment the player put into building a relationship with that character feel cheap. They feel set up by the fact that it could have been any other squadmate in that same role, that they had to suffer the most just because they chose the "wrong" romance or friendship or battle strategy. Bioware knows their fans a little too well, and isolating a certain squadmate for inevitable death will inevitably feel like their picking on them.

There should always be a choice. Between two squadmates, between a squadmate or a vital war asset, between a squadmate and some other important/beloved NPC, etc. Because that's what Mass Effect is all about. Yeah, you have to make sacrifices, but what you sacrifice is up to you.

Also, remember that realistically, we are losing all of our squadmates at the end of ME3 anyway, since it is the last game of Shepard's story. Whether they "live" or not at the end is irrelevant in terms of us continuing to experience them as characters. Even if they are still "alive" in the diegesis, the game will be over. Even if they are "dead" in the diegesis, they will still live on in our memories of Mass Effect.

What part of a story resonates more than any other part? The ending. It's the final piece that colors the whole experience. Dumbledore is dead, and reading books one through five doesn't make him alive again because YOU KNOW HE WILL DIE. That fact effectively destroys one's perception of that character--you no longer can freely imagine what other adventures they may have some day.

Death is not a narrative essential. Death of a specific character even less so.

Oh, and by the way, I read the script. My space husbando lives, so stop picking on him.

I will hunt down and kill the next person who brings up this topic again.

[Belisarius09]

Some deaths do need to happen. i agree with the op.

however don't tell us we can't get upset if our fav character dies. if ash and garrus both die ima be pissed and kill every husk, geth, collectror, cerberus, reaper i possibly can. I won't be upset with bioware, but i will be upset for losing my squadmates. a tear shed for those lost so to speak. I'd honestly sacrifice my shepard to save the likes of garrus/ash.

[Biotic Sage]

Eckswhyzee wrote...

@OP

Excellent points. You wrote:

"Without some developer/writer/director sheparding (excuse the pun), the story will inevitably suffer.  If a scripted death is beneficial to the narrative, then it is not "Bioware taking away player choice."  Rather, it is Bioware enhancing our gameplay experience.  Striking the balance between great storytelling (Uncharted) and player freedom (Skyrim) is not easy to do, but Mass Effect has so far delivered in spades. "

I suppose that's what the catch is (bolded). I was personally unsatisfied by Virmire, and can't recall any scripted deaths right now which were parrticularly moving for me. Of course, that's a failure of my own imagination.

Anyway, if someone has to die, I had better weep great manly tears.

Of manliness.

I can understand why Virmire can be viewed as unsatisfying for many people.  Obviously it was not "beneficial to the narrative" for you, and the subjectivity of that requirement is definitely what will cause the most problems for Bioware.  Personally, I liked Virmire, but I also think it could have been executed in a much more satisfying manner, so it's not like I am 100% on board with it.  The concept of Virmire though, hell yeah I am completely behind that.

[Biotic Sage]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

What part of a story resonates more than any other part? The ending. It's the final piece that colors the whole experience. Dumbledore is dead, and reading books one through five doesn't make him alive again because YOU KNOW HE WILL DIE. That fact effectively destroys one's perception of that character--you no longer can freely imagine what other adventures they may have some day.

Death is not a narrative essential. Death of a specific character even less so.

Oh, and by the way, I read the script. My space husbando lives, so stop picking on him.

I will hunt down and kill the next person who brings up this topic again.

Haha I thought this would attract you Cheez.  You couldn't stay away from your kryoptonite.  I have not read the script just to let you know.  I'm not seeking it out but I'm not really avoiding it; I don't really believe in spoilers.

Anyway, we could argue about this until Ragnorak.  You say that you always view Dumbledore as dead now, even when reading books 1-5 again?  That seems silly to me, but it's a silly world we live in.  You have a good point about "knowing they will not be able to experience any adventures later on" if they die in the story, but seeing as I am a "text only" kind of guy and not a fan-fic person, I only care about the integrity of the work itself, not hypotheticals.  Others I understand may disagree because they differ in that regard.

[manonyuf]

Scripted deaths are okay in my book if:
1. It is done well. - I am fine even with my favorites dying if it's handled appropriately.
2. Some deaths can be avoided.

Also, I really liked the end of DA:O, and the fact, that the Warden could die, if s/he decided not to go through with Morrigan's ritual and take that final blow.
Wouldn't want to see that exact scene "MassEffectized", but I personally wouldn't mind if Shep could die. (If it is done/written well)

[Biotic Sage]

Belisarius09 wrote...

Some deaths do need to happen. i agree with the op.

however don't tell us we can't get upset if our fav character dies. if ash and garrus both die ima be pissed and kill every husk, geth, collectror, cerberus, reaper i possibly can. I won't be upset with bioware, but i will be upset for losing my squadmates. a tear shed for those lost so to speak. I'd honestly sacrifice my shepard to save the likes of garrus/ash.

Who's telling people "don't get upset?"  If you are upset that is good catharsis, good emotional investment paying off.  It's the people who would be upset with Bioware (so not you) that need to reflect on what they are really upset about and think about the fact that good storytelling elicits an emotional response.

[Exia001]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I have no problem with squadmate deaths. It's a powerful, if a bit overused, narrative tool.

However, having the same damn squadmate die every time makes the investment the player put into building a relationship with that character feel cheap. They feel set up by the fact that it could have been any other squadmate in that same role, that they had to suffer the most just because they chose the "wrong" romance or friendship or battle strategy. Bioware knows their fans a little too well, and isolating a certain squadmate for inevitable death will inevitably feel like their picking on them.

There should always be a choice. Between two squadmates, between a squadmate or a vital war asset, between a squadmate and some other important/beloved NPC, etc. Because that's what Mass Effect is all about. Yeah, you have to make sacrifices, but what you sacrifice is up to you.

Also, remember that realistically, we are losing all of our squadmates at the end of ME3 anyway, since it is the last game of Shepard's story. Whether they "live" or not at the end is irrelevant in terms of us continuing to experience them as characters. Even if they are still "alive" in the diegesis, the game will be over. Even if they are "dead" in the diegesis, they will still live on in our memories of Mass Effect.

What part of a story resonates more than any other part? The ending. It's the final piece that colors the whole experience. Dumbledore is dead, and reading books one through five doesn't make him alive again because YOU KNOW HE WILL DIE. That fact effectively destroys one's perception of that character--you no longer can freely imagine what other adventures they may have some day.

Death is not a narrative essential. Death of a specific character even less so.

Oh, and by the way, I read the script. My space husbando lives, so stop picking on him.

I will hunt down and kill the next person who brings up this topic again.

Your Space Husband lives in this instance, it is a draft script, I fail to see how people can always survive, what if the Reapers have their way and it all gets turned into space mush?

[AdmiralCheez]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Haha I thought this would attract you Cheez.  You couldn't stay away from your kryoptonite.  I have not read the script just to let you know.  I'm not seeking it out but I'm not really avoiding it; I don't really believe in spoilers.

Don't laugh.  There's a reason I'm adamant about being able to save the FAKE people I care about.  It's because I couldn't/can't save the REAL ones.

Just wait until you feel that powerlessness in real life, man.  You don't want to relive it.  I don't my favorite game series to turn into a psychological nightmare for me, okay?

Anyway, we could argue about this until Ragnorak.  You say that you always view Dumbledore as dead now, even when reading books 1-5 again?  That seems silly to me, but it's a silly world we live in.  You have a good point about "knowing they will not be able to experience any adventures later on" if they die in the story, but seeing as I am a "text only" kind of guy and not a fan-fic person, I only care about the integrity of the work itself, not hypotheticals.  Others I understand may disagree because they differ in that regard.

But Mass Effect is different from a book, isn't it?  You have the power to change the narrative, to put yourself in the story, to have the kind of power real life will never give you.

We don't play games to be hurt and humiliated.

[Yezdigerd]

Biotic Sage wrote...
good storytelling elicits an emotional response.

So does bad storytelling. Which Virmire is a good example of. If you want to kill off the a character close to the protagonists that are well developed, it should have more consequences then a popularity contest.

[AdmiralCheez]

Exia001 wrote...

Your Space Husband lives in this instance, it is a draft script, I fail to see how people can always survive, what if the Reapers have their way and it all gets turned into space mush?

There's a reason I keep up-to-date with spoilers, man.

[Yezdigerd]

Exia001 wrote...
 I fail to see how people can always survive, what if the Reapers have their way and it all gets turned into space mush?

The same way Shepard always survives, you reload until you get it right.

[Exia001]

I see...didnt really answer my point, but whatever. I was just making the point that to base who lives and dies on one script is daft given the context of the game, If everyone could die in ME2 on a mission, it seems barmy that everyone cant die in A GALACTIC war

Modifié par Exia001, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Biotic Sage]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Haha I thought this would attract you Cheez.  You couldn't stay away from your kryoptonite.  I have not read the script just to let you know.  I'm not seeking it out but I'm not really avoiding it; I don't really believe in spoilers.

Don't laugh.  There's a reason I'm adamant about being able to save the FAKE people I care about.  It's because I couldn't/can't save the REAL ones.

Just wait until you feel that powerlessness in real life, man.  You don't want to relive it.  I don't my favorite game series to turn into a psychological nightmare for me, okay?

Anyway, we could argue about this until Ragnorak.  You say that you always view Dumbledore as dead now, even when reading books 1-5 again?  That seems silly to me, but it's a silly world we live in.  You have a good point about "knowing they will not be able to experience any adventures later on" if they die in the story, but seeing as I am a "text only" kind of guy and not a fan-fic person, I only care about the integrity of the work itself, not hypotheticals.  Others I understand may disagree because they differ in that regard.

But Mass Effect is different from a book, isn't it?  You have the power to change the narrative, to put yourself in the story, to have the kind of power real life will never give you.

We don't play games to be hurt and humiliated.

Just trying to keep it light.  Obviously you have a great deal invested in this game, more than just your entertainment needs so I apologize for laughing.  I'm not familiar with you or your life's history, so I'm sorry if I unintentionally offended.  And I have felt powerless in real life.  Any intelligent person feels powerless every day; we are insignificant dust particles in an awe-inspiring universe; the people who feel invincible are living in a grand delusion that will inevitably come crashing down sooner rather than later.  I guess the difference is I don't view myself as Shepard; I view Shepard as an external character I am rolling, whereas I am more like the director pulling the strings and fashioning Shepard into a hero I admire, so I would not be feeling powerless regardless of what happens in the game.

And hey, you brought up Dumbledore.  Also, "text" can mean any narrative work not just books so that's what I meant there.  "Text only" as in I don't analyze or judge based on author/director or any other external subtexts.  If the texts work in and of itself, then it's good with me.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:47 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

How was Virmire bad storytelling? Because somebody had to die? It happens. Even for a squad of ultimate badasses there are going to be casualties.

[AdmiralCheez]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Just trying to keep it light.  Obviously you have a great deal invested in this game, more than just your entertainment needs so I apologize for laughing.  And I have felt powerless in real life.  Any intelligent person feels powerless every day; the people who feel invincible are living in a grand delusion that will inevitably come crashing down sooner rather than later.  I guess the difference is I don't view myself as Shepard; I view Shepard as an external character I am rolling, whereas I am more like the director pulling the strings and fashioning Shepard into a hero I admire, so I would not be feeling powerless regardless of what happens in the game.

1. How powerless we talking?
2. And that's the problem.  You're viewing it as a movie or TV series you're helping to create, WHICH IS FINE, but it is is, ultimately, a ROLE-PLAYING GAME, designed with the INTENTIONS of coaxing the player into being fully immersed "as" the protagonist.  Think back to selecting your background.  Was it "Shepard was born on Midnoir?"  No.  "YOU were born on Midnoir."  Think of all the other yous and yours the game sprinkles in, the wording of commands ("move here" and not "move shepard here").  It's obvious you're supposed to take it personally and see Shepard as your avatar.  Hence, it's wrong to analyze a game the same way you'd analyze a book or movie; books and movies are about showing and telling, but games are about doing.

And hey, you brought up Dumbledore.  Also, "text" can mean any narrative work not just books so that's what I meant there.  "Text only" as in I don't analyze or judge based on author/director or any other external subtexts.  If the texts work in and of itself, then it's good with me.

So you never even bother to imagine beyond what the story presents?