236 réponses à ce sujet

[C9316]

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

C9316 wrote...

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Game companies still do have the right to try out new things and take risks.

They've already taken alot of risks, why risk things on the 3rd game? It's a guarantee sell for most fans. Completely changing a game isn't trying new things they are DOING new things.

So making combat not suck == completely changing a game?

Taking away RPG elements to make combat better and try to attract MP players is. I am not against improved combat at all. I would love better combat, but don't take away things that made the game what it is. Enemies dropping from the sky is the worst spawn point ever.

So are we talking about ME, or RPGs in general? If ME then let me ask you this; what made ME an rpg? Did the crappy inventory system and less than stellar combat make it an rpg?

[Dominus]

My main issue isn't so much that their RPGs are getting more watered down, but that they're doing it to their existing IPs that started off as being a little deeper and stronger in their RPG elements and turning them more into action games bu dumbing them down and oversimplifying. That's why I'm fine with Jade Empire and can enjoy it despite it being technically BioWare's shallowest and "least RPG" title in recent years, but Dragon Age 2 feels like a betrayal and massive FUBAR because of what the original was.

I do agree with this...

they should just make RPGs for RPG fans and action games for action game fans, and then perhaps something that also has a bit of both for good measure. Mass Effect was always kind of like this and that's fine, but Dragon Age was never intended to be a half-assed, inbetween Action-RPG: it was supposed to be a proper RPG.

Also that. I didn't share the majority of the feelings with people having fits over ME2's changes. I will agree with the issues with Dragon Age 2, though - it was trying to be something it wasn't.

[Il Divo]

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

I'm sure not all the rockstar fans were happy with it, Also put Rockstar on any game and it will sell well.

By the way, this is kinda random, but I just realized what your name is a reference to. And well-played, Sir. Urahara is a bamf.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[CARL_DF90]

Uh, all I can say is, "WOW!"

[Il Divo]

jreezy wrote...

People actually like Bleach around here?

I see 'em around from time to time. I personally thought it was terrific up through the Soul Society arc, at which point my enjoyment does kinda spiral downwards. It was a good few seasons.

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

And that's all perfectly fine. I have no ill will for anyone who likes older Bioware games and think ME2 represents the "decline". But here's the problem with the "existing IPs" argument, which I point out above: there isn't a single, uniform reason why someone may enjoy an IP.

Consider (for example) how alot of fans are so attached to the character of the Warden that they hate on DA2 merely because it wasn't an opportunity for them to continue (what they claim to be) an "unfinished" storyline. I've seen your own criticisms of DA2, so I'm aware that this is not one of them, but it remains an issue for a substantial portion of people even now. In my case, I loved ME for the setting/characters and despised the inventory, so many of the changes did not offend me as much as other players.

Consider also that with the myriad of changes Bioware made in DA2, some fans take more issue with some than others. Some people think it's the art style that sucks, others the story-line, and yet more the gameplay. Some think it was all crap, and others that it was all good. We don't have a clear 100% understanding of when an IP has undergone enough changes to cease being that IP. Or in other cases, since DA:O and ME1, represented completely new IPs, it's not clear how well Bioware thought of the actual features in the game to bring them into the next installment. Games like WoW undergone constant revision through patches because the developers are not always sure of the game design, how they want to balance a game, what role they want classes to fill, etc.

Well, in response to that, I have to pose this question: are the developers making the right changes for the right reasons?

More specifically, are they actually making the changes to improve the gameplay while keeping things consistent with the original vision and intent of the series and staying true to its roots? Or are they merely making design decisions in order to sell more copies by diverting their gameplay changes more towards what most gamers seem to want these days, regardless of whether it suits the original vision and intent of the series or not and whether it appeals to the fans or not?

Personally, I'm not sure BioWare are making their decisions lately with what's best for their games and existing IPs in mind. I think they're just making decisions with what could be best for their pockets in mind. They seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, but don't seem to see that they can't without annoying many of their existing fanbase. The choices they're making are resulting in many of the things RPG fans want in their games being either cut out or watered down, and the introduction of elements the same fans don't want to see in their games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I got into Mass Effect not just for what it was, but for what it wasn't. The same goes for Dragon Age. And now they both seem to be becoming the very things I hate about a lot of modern mainstream games, and it seems it's just so BioWare can grow the brand and appeal to more people for more $$$. I think they're more concerned about getting more new fans than keeping many of their old ones happy, and that's not a good thing, IMO.

[Terror_K]

Arcian wrote...

You see, this is the problem - you do not represent "a lot" of fans. The people complaining here on the BSN are a vocal minority, the tip of the iceberg. Same applies to the "BioWare Defense Force". The greatest portion of the BioWare fanbase never comes here to the BSN. They don't comment on it online. They just play the games. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're making a common error made at the BSN: mixing up "fans" with "players" basically.

And that's kind of the problem: BioWare cares more about its "players" than it does its "fans" lately.

[AwakenxBenihime]

C9316 wrote...

So are we talking about ME, or RPGs in general? If ME then let me ask you this; what made ME an rpg? Did the crappy inventory system and less than stellar combat make it an rpg?

Well creating the character that you want(both physically and through their actions), choosing dialogue and making decisions that impact the story/gameplay are what define an RPG to me. An inventory system is in almost every RPG, why not make that better and not take it out completely? The guns in ME2 (not counting heavy weapons) What the difference between them are. I would like to know the stats on each weapon, which is another aspect of an RPG. Being able to sell items you pick up would've made ME2 much easier. I found myself not having enough money alot of the time.

[AwakenxBenihime]

Il Divo wrote...

jreezy wrote...

People actually like Bleach around here?

I see 'em around from time to time. I personally thought it was terrific up through the Soul Society arc, at which point my enjoyment does kinda spiral downwards. It was a good few seasons.

My name is that of which you speak, though he says many things to unleash his Zanpakutō.
I agree, too much filler, but lets not get too far off topic. lol

[Rockworm503]

Terror_K wrote...

Arcian wrote...

You see, this is the problem - you do not represent "a lot" of fans. The people complaining here on the BSN are a vocal minority, the tip of the iceberg. Same applies to the "BioWare Defense Force". The greatest portion of the BioWare fanbase never comes here to the BSN. They don't comment on it online. They just play the games. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're making a common error made at the BSN: mixing up "fans" with "players" basically.

And that's kind of the problem: BioWare cares more about its "players" than it does its "fans" lately.

What makes a "player" not a fan?

My friend loves Mass Effect to death but you'll never see him on here or any other forum he finds them a waste of time and will never signt up for one.
How is he less of a fan than you?
because you talk a lot?

[The Unfallen]

mango smoothie wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Nice story but 1983?

So basically he would be now 28 and 8 divorces?

What a record.

Thats actually not to far off for todays culture ....... JK

Considering the fact I didn't get laid until I was 18 and out of high school that is actually impressive.

Modifié par The Unfallen, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[C9316]

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

C9316 wrote...

So are we talking about ME, or RPGs in general? If ME then let me ask you this; what made ME an rpg? Did the crappy inventory system and less than stellar combat make it an rpg?

Well creating the character that you want(both physically and through their actions), choosing dialogue and making decisions that impact the story/gameplay are what define an RPG to me. An inventory system is in almost every RPG, why not make that better and not take it out completely? The guns in ME2 (not counting heavy weapons) What the difference between them are. I would like to know the stats on each weapon, which is another aspect of an RPG. Being able to sell items you pick up would've made ME2 much easier. I found myself not having enough money alot of the time.

I can agree with the bolded part, and I'm pretty sure with the emergence of weapon benches the return of stats for weapons will return.

[Il Divo]

jreezy wrote...

I see Terror is only further proving Phaedon's point. You're right, none of us are "more of a fan" because we frequent the forum.

It depends. Before making this account, I was a huge Bioware fan from KotOR and Jade Empire, having played through each a dozen times over. But there are alot of game series I love whose forums you'll probably never see me on. Legend of Zelda is the quintessential example. It's probably my favorite series and I've bought most of them, but I'll never make a Nintendo account in all probability.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:26 .

[AwakenxBenihime]

C9316 wrote...

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

C9316 wrote...

So are we talking about ME, or RPGs in general? If ME then let me ask you this; what made ME an rpg? Did the crappy inventory system and less than stellar combat make it an rpg?

Well creating the character that you want(both physically and through their actions), choosing dialogue and making decisions that impact the story/gameplay are what define an RPG to me. An inventory system is in almost every RPG, why not make that better and not take it out completely? The guns in ME2 (not counting heavy weapons) What the difference between them are. I would like to know the stats on each weapon, which is another aspect of an RPG. Being able to sell items you pick up would've made ME2 much easier. I found myself not having enough money alot of the time.

I can agree with the bolded part, and I'm pretty sure with the emergence of weapon benches the return of stats for weapons will return.

God I hope so. It's funny that we were never really arguing.

[Terror_K]

Rockworm503 wrote...

What makes a "player" not a fan?

My friend loves Mass Effect to death but you'll never see him on here or any other forum he finds them a waste of time and will never signt up for one.
How is he less of a fan than you?
because you talk a lot?

A fan is somebody who loves the universe, characters and lore beyond just the games and either has bought or probably would buy (or want to buy) at least a few pieces of Mass Effect merchandise, would probably read the novels and comics, etc.

A player is somebody who plays Mass Effect, but would probably forget about it in a few years time (if the series ended that was) and wouldn't see it as being anything more special than most other games they've played, and perhaps as just even something to play between other titles (e.g. perhaps it's just another game between a CoD, Halo or Gears of War game. Perhaps even for others it's what they played between Oblivion and Skyrim, or between Fallouts or Final Fantasy's, etc.).

Most people who play Mass Effect are players. Granted there will be fans who don't frequent the forums, but most who don't out there will simply be players. And that's who BioWare seems to care about more lately.

Modifié par Terror_K, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Mclouvins]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, some "original" Bioware fans just won't be happy with the Mass Effect series until the gun combat uses the D&D roll model from KOTOR or TOR (I assume since it's a hotkey based mmo).

But more on target I still don't see a lot of the complaints that the RPG elements of ME2 were stripped down. They repackaged some stuff sure. As far as character development was concerned weapon and armor talents moved to research projects and the charm/intimidate talents were removed in favor of interrupts which added more variability to some of the dialogue sequences. Maybe I'm just oblivious but it seems to me that the major hallmarks of what made ME1 an rpg: character development, variable dialogue, choices, and nonlinear story progression are all still there, and from what the ME3 team has said so far seem to be getting stronger in the latest installment.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, in response to that, I have to pose this question: are the developers making the right changes for the right reasons?

More specifically, are they actually making the changes to improve the gameplay while keeping things consistent with the original vision and intent of the series and staying true to its roots? Or are they merely making design decisions in order to sell more copies by diverting their gameplay changes more towards what most gamers seem to want these days, regardless of whether it suits the original vision and intent of the series or not and whether it appeals to the fans or not?

Interesting question. And answers will probably divert based on how you feel about Bioware's most recent efforts. Cynics will tell you any company is always after money. In my case, many of ME2's decisions agreed with me, so regardless of whether Bioware did it for money, I supported those changes and I could give you reasons why I consider them improvements. DA2's case? Not so much. Many of the shifts I considered unnecessary, negative, or simply not given enough time to plan for.  

[C9316]

Terror_K wrote...
A fan is somebody who loves the universe, characters and lore beyond just the games and either has bought or probably would buy (or want to buy) at least a few pieces of Mass Effect merchandise, would probably read the novels and comics, etc.

Are you serious? So you're only a fan if you buy the stuff outside the game? Ok, I don't buy those stupid action figures, or those props of the normandy I think they are a waste of money. Nice to see I'm not a fan anymore, I thought continuing to buy the games, keeping tabs on the next installment,etc made me a fan silly me...

[AwakenxBenihime]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Arcian wrote...

You see, this is the problem - you do not represent "a lot" of fans. The people complaining here on the BSN are a vocal minority, the tip of the iceberg. Same applies to the "BioWare Defense Force". The greatest portion of the BioWare fanbase never comes here to the BSN. They don't comment on it online. They just play the games. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're making a common error made at the BSN: mixing up "fans" with "players" basically.

And that's kind of the problem: BioWare cares more about its "players" than it does its "fans" lately.

What makes a "player" not a fan?

My friend loves Mass Effect to death but you'll never see him on here or any other forum he finds them a waste of time and will never signt up for one.
How is he less of a fan than you?
because you talk a lot?

If they don't voice their opinion they can't get made for what they change and don't change. That's like getting mad Obama won, but you didn't go out and vote. I'm not saying that person is more or less of a fan, just because he/she's not on the forums, but it doesn't seem they care enough to voice their opinion online.

Modifié par AwakenxBenihime, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

A fan is somebody who loves the universe, characters and lore beyond just the games and either has bought or probably would buy (or want to buy) at least a few pieces of Mass Effect merchandise, would probably read the novels and comics, etc.

I disagree with this, primarily because this assumes that all that expanded universe content has quality.

I consider myself a huge fan of Assassin's Creed (played through each game more than 5 times), and can't stand most of the EU. And believe me, there is alot of expanded material in that case, probably more than Dragon Age. As an interactive medium, alot of that is lost in the conversion to comics, novels, PSP games, etc.

Just look at Star Wars as a perfect example of how badly EU content can be received.

Edit: And as C9 points out, I really don't see myself buying action figures, promos, etc. Some people are "bigger fans" of certain games than others, but I really don't see the EU as a great way to measure that. I'm a huge fan of Assassin's Creed, as a console game series.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:36 .