236 réponses à ce sujet

[Mclouvins]

Terror_K wrote...

Arcian wrote...

You see, this is the problem - you do not represent "a lot" of fans. The people complaining here on the BSN are a vocal minority, the tip of the iceberg. Same applies to the "BioWare Defense Force". The greatest portion of the BioWare fanbase never comes here to the BSN. They don't comment on it online. They just play the games. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you're making a common error made at the BSN: mixing up "fans" with "players" basically.

And that's kind of the problem: BioWare cares more about its "players" than it does its "fans" lately.

At the end of the day like it or not this is a business. While "fans" are important in that they are more likely to act as repeat customers that's where the value ultimately ends. You can criticize EA all you want but as a publicly traded company their first reponsiblity is to generate revenue that is passed onto shareholders, and as long as people want videogames that are increasingly expensive to make with high levels of grpahical fidelity or long development times a centralized source of capital to allow said projects to get off the ground is necessary.

Part of the problem is when fans expect the developer to bend of over backwards to accomodate them. A vocal minority is still a minority and spending a lot of money and/or development time catering to a small minority is bad for business and ultimately bad for the studio, let along the problem that fans almost never come to a consensus on anything so trying to acquiesce to their demands will inevitably lead to a incoherent mess. The only way to change the direction of development is to vote with your wallet and move on to other niche rpg genre games like Dark Souls or something similar.

Modifié par Mclouvins, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[spirosz]

Arcian wrote...

Good thread, but a bit wasted on the BSN. People here will never change no matter what you say or do.

Sad, but true.  Though people shouldn't change, but be willing to understand other's opinions without going into insults because of different views.  

[AwakenxBenihime]

Mclouvins wrote...


At the end of the day like it or not this is a business. While "fans" are important in that they are more likely to act as repeat customers that's where the value ultimately ends. You can criticize EA all you want but as a publicly traded company their first reponsiblity is to generate revenue that is passed onto shareholders, and as long as people want videogames that are increasingly expensive to make with high levels of grpahical fidelity or long development times a centralized source of capital to allow said projects to get off the ground is necessary.

I don't think that's true. (the bolded) Fans will provide free promotion, they will advicate for the game, or they will review it horribly on Metacritic or any other review site. DA2 sold less for people reviewing it bad. The fans had a huge impact on it.

Modifié par AwakenxBenihime, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Rockworm503]

I'm so glad Terror_K is here to tell us what the definition of fan is I was so lost without them.

[AwakenxBenihime]

I don't like that Bioware keeps saying the 3rd is the best to start from. That doesn't make any sense. start on the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie that's the best place to start. They are catering to new players alot too.

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

A fan is somebody who loves the universe, characters and lore beyond just the games and either has bought or probably would buy (or want to buy) at least a few pieces of Mass Effect merchandise, would probably read the novels and comics, etc.

I disagree with this, primarily because this assumes that all that expanded universe content has quality.

I consider myself a huge fan of Assassin's Creed (played through each game more than 5 times), and can't stand most of the EU. And believe me, there is alot of expanded material in that case, probably more than Dragon Age. As an interactive medium, alot of that is lost in the conversion to comics, novels, PSP games, etc.

Just look at Star Wars as a perfect example of how badly EU content can be received.

Edit: And as C9 points out, I really don't see myself buying action figures, promos, etc. Some people are "bigger fans" of certain games than others, but I really don't see the EU as a great way to measure that. I'm a huge fan of Assassin's Creed, as a console game series.

Okay, maybe I didn't word that quite right and made it sound like one has to buy Mass Effect products outside the game to be a fan, when what I actually meant is that that's something that a fan would do that a casual player wouldn't. That doesn't define a fan, but is merely an example of something a fan may do.

What I basically meant is that a fan is somebody who looks beyond the game and loves the Mass Effect universe and doesn't just consider the series another game amongst many. They consider it something more and love it as more than just a video game. I have many different games on my shelf, but there are very few I'd consider myself to be "a fan" of. Mass Effect and Unreal Tournament are really the only two that come to mind, unless one considers things like Batman Arkham Asylum and KotOR for the simple reasons I was already a huge Batman and Star Wars (excluding the prequel crap) fan before the games even existed.

Dragon Age used to be something I previously considered myself a fan of, and I even have David Gaider's first two novels and considered buying some of the action figures initially, but Dragon Age 2 completely ruined that series for me and now I'm just no longer a Dragon Age fan at all really. I'll still play DAO, but thanks to its sequel I'll never really be "a fan" again.

The basic point is this: is Mass Effect just another game series, or is it something more to you? If you answer "yes" to the latter, then you're a fan. If not, then you're just a player who happens to (possibly) enjoy the game.

And regarding EU, one doesn't have to automatically like it to be a fan, but one should have generally experienced it. There's a great deal of Star Wars EU I absolutely loathe, and it only seems to be growing as time goes on. And frankly I don't want to see Mass Effect heading the same way as Star Wars, which I why I object to the way I fear it's heading so much. In some ways ME2 felt like BioWare had suffered from Lucas Prequel syndrome on only the second game in.

Modifié par Terror_K, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

A fan is somebody who loves the universe, characters and lore beyond just the games and either has bought or probably would buy (or want to buy) at least a few pieces of Mass Effect merchandise, would probably read the novels and comics, etc.

I disagree with this, primarily because this assumes that all that expanded universe content has quality.

I consider myself a huge fan of Assassin's Creed (played through each game more than 5 times), and can't stand most of the EU. And believe me, there is alot of expanded material in that case, probably more than Dragon Age. As an interactive medium, alot of that is lost in the conversion to comics, novels, PSP games, etc.

Just look at Star Wars as a perfect example of how badly EU content can be received.

Edit: And as C9 points out, I really don't see myself buying action figures, promos, etc. Some people are "bigger fans" of certain games than others, but I really don't see the EU as a great way to measure that. I'm a huge fan of Assassin's Creed, as a console game series.

Okay, maybe I didn't word that quite right and made it sound like one has to buy Mass Effect products outside the game to be a fan, when what I actually meant is that that's something that a fan would do that a casual player wouldn't. That doesn't define a fan, but is merely an example of something a fan may do.

What I basically meant is that a fan is somebody who looks beyond the game and loves the Mass Effect universe and doesn't just consider the series another game amongst many. They consider it something more and love it as more than just a video game. I have many different games on my shelf, but there are very few I'd consider myself to be "a fan" of. Mass Effect and Unreal Tournament are really the only two that come to mind, unless one considers things like Batman Arkham Asylum and KotOR for the simple reasons I was already a huge Batman and Star Wars (excluding the prequel crap) fan before the games even existed.

Dragon Age used to be something I previously considered myself a fan of, and I even have David Gaider's first two novels and considered buying some of the action figures initially, but Dragon Age 2 completely ruined that series for me and now I'm just no longer a Dragon Age fan at all really. I'll still play DAO, but thanks to its sequel I'll never really be "a fan" again.

The basic point is this: is Mass Effect just another game series, or is it something more to you. If you answer "yes" to the latter, then you're a fan. If not, then you're just a player who happens to (possibly) enjoy the game.

And regarding EU, one doesn't have to automatically like it to be a fan, but one should have generally experienced it. There's a great deal of Star Wars EU I absolutely loathe, and it only seems to be growing as time goes on. And frankly I don't want to see Mass Effect heading the same way as Star Wars, which I why I object to the way I fear it's heading so much. In some ways ME2 felt like BioWare had suffered from Lucas Prequel syndrome on only the second game in.

Fair enough. That's probably closer to my interpretation as well.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Orange colour hurts my eyes.

Honestly mate I can't think of anything to type in response to what you said.

I'm also eating Bran Flakes. They are soooooooooooooooo tasty with hot milk.

Ew.. 

On Topic: Great opening post OP. It was fun to read.

Also

alex90c wrote...

Zeelx wrote...

No they are not above me.

I'm not smelling my own armpit so engrossed with my smell.

You know who else is above you? The guy who wrote that giant post about Tali's sweat.

Seriously? 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[AwakenxBenihime]

You know you're a fan when you feel a little sad thinking about ME3 being the last game in the trilogy.

[C9316]

Terror_K wrote...
The basic point is this: is Mass Effect just another game series, or is it something more to you. If you answer "yes" to the latter, then you're a fan. If not, then you're just a player who happens to (possibly) enjoy the game.

And regarding EU, one doesn't have to automatically like it to be a fan, but one should have generally experienced it.

The first part just screams 'over emotional' to me. I enjoy ME's story, universe, characters,etc,etc for what it is a game series nothing more nothing less. You seem to be implying that being a fan is like being a devout practitioner of some religion. (though seeing most of the so called 'fans' maybe I shouldn't blame you)

And for a fan to have to 'generally' experience some action figures, comics based off said game series, etc to be a fan refer back to my first point.

[spirosz]

Terror_K wrote...

Okay, maybe I didn't word that quite right and made it sound like one has to buy Mass Effect products outside the game to be a fan, when what I actually meant is that that's something that a fan would do that a casual player wouldn't. That doesn't define a fan, but is merely an example of something a fan may do.

What I basically meant is that a fan is somebody who looks beyond the game and loves the Mass Effect universe and doesn't just consider the series another game amongst many. They consider it something more and love it as more than just a video game. I have many different games on my shelf, but there are very few I'd consider myself to be "a fan" of. Mass Effect and Unreal Tournament are really the only two that come to mind, unless one considers things like Batman Arkham Asylum and KotOR for the simple reasons I was already a huge Batman and Star Wars (excluding the prequel crap) fan before the games even existed.

Dragon Age used to be something I previously considered myself a fan of, and I even have David Gaider's first two novels and considered buying some of the action figures initially, but Dragon Age 2 completely ruined that series for me and now I'm just no longer a Dragon Age fan at all really. I'll still play DAO, but thanks to its sequel I'll never really be "a fan" again.

The basic point is this: is Mass Effect just another game series, or is it something more to you. If you answer "yes" to the latter, then you're a fan. If not, then you're just a player who happens to (possibly) enjoy the game.

And regarding EU, one doesn't have to automatically like it to be a fan, but one should have generally experienced it. There's a great deal of Star Wars EU I absolutely loathe, and it only seems to be growing as time goes on. And frankly I don't want to see Mass Effect heading the same way as Star Wars, which I why I object to the way I fear it's heading so much. In some ways ME2 felt like BioWare had suffered from Lucas Prequel syndrome on only the second game in.

That's a good point, but every player is different.  So trying to generalize what a fan "truly is" would be impossible in my opinion because of invidviduality.  For example, I haven't bought all of Buckethead's music, but most of my friends know me as a one of his most dedicated fans in a sense because of how I describe his music, how it's influenced me, why I like him, etc, etc.  Just because I don't do certain things as other fans, doesn't make me any less of a fan, I just show it in a different way.  

I understand your point about player vs. fan, but I really find it hard to point down to a specific generalization because again, it comes down to how and what the player does.   There's a lot of other influences as well, like what type of mindset the player has towards the game and when they play the game can affect them as well, for example:  Maybe the player is going through a bad month and now they're able to connect with the game more, for whatever reason.  This could infuence future purchases in the series or show how dedicated they are at this certain point of time, I don't know, there's too much to consider in my opinion.

Modifié par spiros9110, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[AwakenxBenihime]

C9316 wrote...

The first part just screams 'over emotional' to me. I enjoy ME's story, universe, characters,etc,etc for what it is a game series nothing more nothing less. You seem to be implying that being a fan is like being a devout practitioner of some religion. (though seeing most of the so called 'fans' maybe I shouldn't blame you)

Ok, don't offended I like MLP too, But is MLP just another kids cartoon to you? I would think not.

[C9316]

AwakenxBenihime wrote...
Ok, don't offended I like MLP too, But is MLP just another kids cartoon to you? I would think not.

MLP is actually good, so I guess I can't say it's just another kids cartoon because all kids cartoons these days are crap. But I guess it doesn't matter what I think since I don't buy those mlp t-shirts, and toys and am therefore not a fan.

[Il Divo]

MLP?

[AwakenxBenihime]

C9316 wrote...

AwakenxBenihime wrote...
Ok, don't offended I like MLP too, But is MLP just another kids cartoon to you? I would think not.

MLP is actually good, so I guess I can't say it's just another kids cartoon because all kids cartoons these days are crap. But I guess it doesn't matter what I think since I don't buy those mlp t-shirts, and toys and am therefore not a fan.

Lol I'm not defending you have to buy merch to be a fan I'm just saying you shouldn't just say you like it for what it is, and you're being emotional if its something more than just another video game to you.

Il Divo wrote...

MLP?

My Little Pony

[DPSSOC]

jreezy wrote...
I see Terror is only further proving Phaedon's point. You're right, none of us are "more of a fan" because we frequent the forum.

I'd have to disagree with this.  I'm a Jays fan, I watch the games, buy the merchandise, etc. but I don't actually go to the games (3 in my whole life).  Someone who buys season tickets and goes to every game they can is more of a fan than I am as they are willing to invest more time and money into it.  Similarly on the forums, people here are investing more of their personal time into the game than those who simply play and enjoy the game.

It doesn't make them any more entitled to get what they want but they are bigger fans.

AwakenxBenihime wrote...
I don't like that Bioware keeps saying the 3rd is the best to start from. That doesn't make any sense. start on the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie that's the best place to start. They are catering to new players alot too.

This, this is the only area I'd like to see Bioware cater to "original" fans. By designing 3 as an entry point (and 2) they either have to downplay decisions made in 1 & 2 or waste a lot of time on exposition. I've always been a believer that be it videogames, books, movies, TV shows, what have you the author shouldn't take the time to bring people up to speed. I start watching a TV show in the second season I don't expect the show to fill me in on who the characters are, what the long running plots and sub-plots are, etc. I can figure it out as I go or watch the first season. Same with movies, books, or games.

[Lunatic LK47]

Il Divo wrote...

I disagree with this, primarily because this assumes that all that expanded universe content has quality.

I consider myself a huge fan of Assassin's Creed (played through each game more than 5 times), and can't stand most of the EU. And believe me, there is alot of expanded material in that case, probably more than Dragon Age. As an interactive medium, alot of that is lost in the conversion to comics, novels, PSP games, etc.

Just look at Star Wars as a perfect example of how badly EU content can be received.

Edit: And as C9 points out, I really don't see myself buying action figures, promos, etc. Some people are "bigger fans" of certain games than others, but I really don't see the EU as a great way to measure that. I'm a huge fan of Assassin's Creed, as a console game series.

One subject I can actually agree with Il Divo on. I personally hated Revelation after reading it in its entirety, and avoided all of the other novels because of it.  The comics are slightly better in a sense, but that's not really saying much considering the level of retcons. There are also cases where the EU is actually better than the main games, which I find to be irritating at times (i.e. The Gears of Wars and Halo novels have better story details than the main games themselves).

As it is, I actually have numerous characters in the entire Mass Effect series and have at least 12 files available for import, and willingly play those alternate characters. I prefer ME over KOTOR 1 or Jade Empire, where I usually play only as one class or one character just because it fit my playstyle the best, and never bothered with the other builds just because I may end up getting left out of certain content, just "because I took the wrong class" (usually the reason why I only play a Male Scout/Sentinel in KOTOR 1 and not bother doing other replays with Soldier/Guardian or Scoundrel/Consular)

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[InvincibleHero]

There is no even original BW. They can make any game of any genre they want. Sometimes the game experiments don't work but can lay the groundwork for future masterpieces. All we can do is see if the product they put out aligns with our tastes in computer or video games and purchase accordingly or not.

[AwakenxBenihime]

DPSSOC wrote...

I'd have to disagree with this.  I'm a Jays fan, I watch the games, buy the merchandise, etc. but I don't actually go to the games (3 in my whole life).  Someone who buys season tickets and goes to every game they can is more of a fan than I am as they are willing to invest more time and money into it.  Similarly on the forums, people here are investing more of their personal time into the game than those who simply play and enjoy the game.

It doesn't make them any more entitled to get what they want but they are bigger fans.

AwakenxBenihime wrote...
I don't like that Bioware keeps saying the 3rd is the best to start from. That doesn't make any sense. start on the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie that's the best place to start. They are catering to new players alot too.

This, this is the only area I'd like to see Bioware cater to "original" fans. By designing 3 as an entry point (and 2) they either have to downplay decisions made in 1 & 2 or waste a lot of time on exposition. I've always been a believer that be it videogames, books, movies, TV shows, what have you the author shouldn't take the time to bring people up to speed. I start watching a TV show in the second season I don't expect the show to fill me in on who the characters are, what the long running plots and sub-plots are, etc. I can figure it out as I go or watch the first season. Same with movies, books, or games.

I agree with you on both of your points. Being more invested in a game/series makes you a bigger fan. They are making a comic (or something similar) again for people who are starting at ME3. I can see why they are doing that, for people who just started, but why not just include a free version of ME2? Ala AC Revelations. Another thing I feel they are wasting time on. The only reason I think they waste time at all is that they've only been working on it for 2 years. DA2 had less time and they cut way too many corners.

[Il Divo]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


One subject I can actually agree with Il Divo on.

Have we argued before? I've seen your posts, but don't recall any discussions in recent memory and I tend to remember most of the people I've argued with.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:52 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Il Divo wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


One subject I can actually agree with Il Divo on.

Have we argued before? I've seen your posts, but don't recall any discussions in recent memory and I tend to remember most of the people I've argued with.

Nope, we never interacted directly. I lurked on some topics here and there and just happened to silently disagree with some of your arguments on whatever topics caught my interest for the past couple of years

[Jaron Oberyn]

InvincibleHero wrote...

There is no even original BW. They can make any game of any genre they want. Sometimes the game experiments don't work but can lay the groundwork for future masterpieces. All we can do is see if the product they put out aligns with our tastes in computer or video games and purchase accordingly or not.

You don't seem to understand, so let me break it down for you: We were promised a shooter/rpg trilogy with a fully customizable protagonist and deep decisions with significant consequences. All we got out of after the first game was shooter. We don't have as much control over Shepard in ME2, and from what I've seen in the leaks, ME3. Biowares starting to take this "personal" character and turn him into a specific character to represent the franchise. Instead of improved inventory, exploration, and vehicle exploration, we were given nothing. ME2 had an extremely weak leveling system, 4 blocks and a choice of two different versions at the end. Oh how deep. ME2 has the most amount of automatic dialogue out of the two games, and it's not just in parts of the story where there's no logical alternative. As states above, biowares giving the player less control over Shepard in order to make him a specific character. They want their own Masterchief, Marcus Fenix, Nathan Drake, etc... Having a customizable protagonist doesn't fit in with that. Additionally, we were told that the reason choices were ignored/retconned in mass 2 was because we'd have the consequences in mass 3. They even said that the game will vastly differ from player to player because they can go nuts since theres no continuity. Well if you read the leaked script as I did, you'd know that ME3 has an explanation for why  every "choice" you made in the previous games results in the same outcome, except for people who die and are replaced with identical counterparts with different names.  Changing a games genre in the middle of a trilogy is sloppy development. It's sad to see bioware hit that low. With ME3 they have a chance to redeem themselves. Sadly it doesn't look like they're interested in taking the opportunity.


-Polite



D

[Il Divo]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Nope, we never interacted directly. I lurked on some topics here and there and just happened to silently disagree with some of your arguments on whatever topics caught my interest for the past couple of years

Yeah, that does happen a good amount. Still, good to know that I didn't forget anything important. Alot of threads here on the BSN.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[Terror_K]

jreezy wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It doesn't make them any more entitled to get what they want but they are bigger fans.

That last sentence is actually what I was trying to say.

I still think new products of an IP should be made more for existing fans of the IP than for "potential new fans" and that an IP should be warped and changed to the point where it starts alienating those fans just to get new ones.