236 réponses à ce sujet

[HowlHowl]

I think Terror K hit the nail on the head already. The problem isn't TPS action and guns, the problem is taking away what some love with no tangible reasoning but "it's cooler without it". Why can't we all get what we want? History has shown that when you do your streamlining and improvement of combat/inventory without taking away too much of the RPG, you win in sales and acclaim.

At this point I feel like I'm less complaining about Bioware and their lame justifications for abandoning RPG roots and more giving them business advice as to how they could avoid needing to in the first place.

Also, greetings, all. I'm Howl...Howl.

Modifié par HowlHowl, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I love you so much BSN.

You are a good 70% of the negative things on the internet condensed into one "social" network.

Keep up the fine work my good gentlemen/gentlewomen because it's always good for a laugh!

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:42 .

[TheKillerAngel]

C9316 wrote...

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

C9316 wrote...

AwakenxBenihime wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Game companies still do have the right to try out new things and take risks.

They've already taken alot of risks, why risk things on the 3rd game? It's a guarantee sell for most fans. Completely changing a game isn't trying new things they are DOING new things.

So making combat not suck == completely changing a game?

Taking away RPG elements to make combat better and try to attract MP players is. I am not against improved combat at all. I would love better combat, but don't take away things that made the game what it is. Enemies dropping from the sky is the worst spawn point ever.

So are we talking about ME, or RPGs in general? If ME then let me ask you this; what made ME an rpg? Did the crappy inventory system and less than stellar combat make it an rpg?

AwakenxBenihime: Me3's combat definitely looks improved over ME2's, which was an improvement over ME1's, the ME3's skill progression is far more advanced than ME1's.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:53 .

[Kusy]

Elitist attack on elitists?

[111987]

InvincibleHero wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think our choices should matter somewhat. I always thought the best solution would be to have two possible missions for each of the major decisions (those being the Rachni choice, the Council choice, the Genophage choice, the Collector Base choice, and the Geth choice. Along with the change in dialogue and cutscene stuff.

For example, if you destroyed the genophage data, the player shouldn't be able to do Sur'Kesh. Instead however, you have a mission where you earn the Krogan alliance by raiding a top secret STG base taken by the Reaper forces to get the Krogan valuable research on the genophage.

That way, you can still gain the alliances of the Krogan, but it actually makes your experience different because of past decisions. And it doesn't make too many variables, because ultimately you still get the Krogan alliance.

I like that idea but wouldn't that mean four possible outcomes/missions? You also have to have paragon and renegade distinctions to be fair to everyone.

Nah, the beauty of this solution is that even though there are two missions, there are still only two outcomes total. You either don't do the missions and thus don't gain the Krogan alliance, or you complete the mission and do gain the Alliance. The Paragon and Renegade choice could be something that only affects the ending/epilogue, rather than actual game experience. For example the Paragon response could be giving the Krogan the cure/data, and the Renegade response could be witholding it to use as a prize.

[Phaedon]

My replies towards Gatt and Terror further analyze my point, for anyone interested.

Gatt9 wrote...
1.  That's a really interesting question,  lets turn it around,  why do you feel entitled to demand RPG's now be TPS's,  and degrade people who don't accept it?

Did I ever mention RPGs? I am sure I did not! I greatly enjoyed ME1/2 for the hybrids that they were, and I am looking forward for the elements ME3 will bring to the table. I would be unhappy with a TPS ME3.

That's why I feel entitled.  Because you don't even understand what the problem is.

Your feelings are completely centered around my understanding of things?

That's...sweet, Gatt. But also creepy. Get away from me.

2.  I often wonder if you think before you post.  I've bought just about every Bioware game but I'm not part of the original fanbase?  I guess all of you who just popped up in the last 5 years are Bioware's real original fanbase?

8 actually, though thanks to extremelly cheap game collections, I have been able to play at least one game most BioWare franchises. And you have been playing BW games for what? 13? At most. And you are entitled to more things than I am? Why? Because you are a bigger "gaming old-timer" than I am? Nick has been playing BioWare games for 15 years. He is a bigger old timer than you are, Gatt. He has played more BioWare games than you. Should, just because he is feeling nostalgic, all BioWare games be generic FPSs with mechs? Now, wasn't that a silly thing to say?

Seriously Phaedon,  Bioware isn't Bioware anymore,  it's EA-Bioware.  I'm pretty confident you're going to learn that lesson the really hard way this March given the information thus far.

If BioWare was still BioWare, I wouldn't get into KOTOR and would be utterly uninterested by their mech games. I am very happy with most of the features I have heard, so I am afraid that you are in the wrong one here too!

PoliteAssasin wrote...
You do realize that Phaedon spends all of his time kissing up to Bioware on these forums right? As for your point, I do find this interesting myself. It seems as if the people who bought ME2 as their first bioware game are the self entitled "fanboys", while the people who know them for deep RPGs from their recent games are attacked for not wanting a third person shooter. It's ok to want ME3 to be more shooter, but it's not ok to want more rpg elements. 

Phaedons so caught up with himself he figures his opinion is fact. Let's remember, this is the guy who thought ME3 wasn't going to include multiplayer even after the magazine cover came out.  Just imagine the disappointment when they announced it on the forum. Devastated. 


-Polite

You are in a Christmas mood around this season, aren't you? My opinion is definitely not fact. If it was, I would feel entitled to BioWare making all their games like my first BW game, KOTOR. A streamlined RPG with lots of choices.

And yet, as I show you right here, my sense of entitlement would be stupid.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Phaedon you've only ever played 2 BW games. That series is pretty much completely different from anything BW has ever done. You're basically saying you want something from Bioware, while others want something else. This is just another opinionated thread in a clever disguise.

You can't play DAO can you Phaedon? Too slow for you? Not enough TPS action? Many consider that to be BW's best recent game, while other believe ME2 is. There is a split in the fan base in what is expected of this company because they are making two completely different games. That soon won't be a problem though, as they will all blend into one genre soon enough.

1. 11 actually. Praise cheap game collections, everyone.
2. I did actually enjoy DA:O, even though I prefer sci-fi to fantasy. It was my first used  game, actually. The first copy was scratched, and after getting a second copy, I haven't bought a used game since.
3. I do hope that you are being sarcastic about DA:O being slow. It's the 3rd or 4th fastest BW game.
4. ME is indeed as different to BG, as BG is to MDK2, and as different as MDK2 is to Sonic and Shattered Steel.

Terror_K wrote...

I see...

So what you're basically saying is, because BioWare actually started with an action game and not with an RPG like Baldur's Gate, etc. everybody is automatically wrong who is unhappy with BioWare's more action-oriented games lately and that EA has nothing to do with it?

Hear that everybody! because Shattered Steel was BioWare's first game, that automatically means that Dragon Age 2 was fantastic!

Where did I mention action? I just think that Nick and the fellow fans of Shattered Steel should demand more mechs in BioWare games.

I haven't played DA2 (I have played the demo, but that doesn't count), so I can't tell you if the action RPG direction was good or not. But anyway, yup, it's definitely wrong to be unhappy with the direction a company is taking. I can maybe understand DA:O, because DA2 isn't even a spin-off.

If you don't like their games, stop playing them. Should Nick be unhappy due to BG and NWN, and should I be unhappy with BioWare because I didn't enjoy the gameplay of DA:O as much as I did with KOTOR? 

That is my exact point, actually Terror. It's extremely unfair to dictate the direction a company should go for, generally. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[The Spamming Troll]

id bet my bank account bioware isnt giving multiple missions for one scenario. the missions will be the same youll just hit the blue button instead of the red one with gordin instead of mordin.

didnt you play ME2? you didnt notice ME1s decisions were delegated to emails? maybe ME2 was just a placeholder for those few decisions to pass over to the game that really matters, ME3.

[Phaedon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Clearly nonsense. Just ask some of the people who've said they won't be playing ME3 or DA3. Their "love" for BW isn't strong enough to make them buy the next game.

That is wise of them, unlike the wording of my first post. One should love the games that the company produces, not the company itself. Otherwise, BioWare games would be utter copy/pastes, made to cater to the original fans and the original fans alone.

By original, do you mean the one single complete shooter that they started with, or maybe the majority of the initial games they made? No one becomes a "fan" of a company because of a single game. I'm not a "fan" of American McGee, because I've only played one game of theirs. I'm not a Novik&Co. and Nival Interactive fan, because I've only played one game of theirs. You become a fan by consistently liking the releases of a company. You know, like BW's consistent RPG releases.

My first BW game was Sonic Chronicals: The Dark Brotherhood. I completely loved the game, and have probably completed it  slightly less than a dozen times. But that didn't magically make me a fan of BW. It was only after learning about ME2 from a friend, and playing it and liking it that I connected the name of the company.

MDK2 was also a shooter. ME1 and 2 have heavy shooter elements. Just like you don't demand ME3 to be based on Sonic Chronicles, older fans shouldn't demand the company to take a specific direction either.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Seems to me like he is desperately trying to emulate how I assume Javier eventually drew BioWare's attention; by being the resident "news guy" (although Jav was usually the first to find it, instead of just the guy that collects it). I'm also quite certain that Jav didn't kiss this much ass along the way (or at all, as I recall it), but I suppose not everyone has that kind of dignity.

Now, that's a pretty stupid thing to think. You see, two positions for EU moderators were open a couple of months ago, and yet I didn't apply for them, even though Mesina2 informed me of them, and even suggested that I apply for one of them.

And I am pretty sure that all mods are "hired" with applications. So Javier and Pacifien definitely didn't kiss any asses, no matter how much you'd like to think that they did.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

id bet my bank account bioware isnt giving multiple missions for one scenario. the missions will be the same youll just hit the blue button instead of the red one with gordin instead of mordin.

didnt you play ME2? you didnt notice ME1s decisions were delegated to emails? maybe ME2 was just a placeholder for those few decisions to pass over to the game that really matters, ME3.

I did play ME2, which is why I am excited about ME3.

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Elitist attack on elitists?

Elitist paradox from an elitist POV with the intent of proving elitists wrong in an elitistic manner.

Modifié par Phaedon, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[CroGamer002]

I just read OP now( followed elections yesterday so wasn't much on BSN).



And it's absolutely brilliant!

[Jaron Oberyn]

@Spamming Troll - if you read the script you'd realize that's exactly what happens. If a squad member died, some one else with similar dialogue will take his/her place. Pretty much Tuchanka/Horizon, but on a larger scale.

@Phaedon - no one said Javier or Pacifien was kissing up to Bioware. It's clearly evident however that you are. Read Kaisers post again and stop drawing conclusions from stuff that isn't there, as usual.

Now back in topic, I don't see what the problem is with having a game that's both strong in RPG and Shooter mechanics. Why can't we have a game with deep customization of character, weapons, skills, and exploration, inventory, loot, that also has strong TPS combat? I just don't see how Bioware doesn't realize that this will ensure higher sales for the game. It adds value. Give us a game where our choices really do matter, and we can have wildly different playthroughs as you said. Considering all of the stuff they could have put into ME3, or 2 for that matter, I would have gladly paid $100 for it, or more. Why? Because we'd be getting more than one game. The value would be so high that it would make sense to pay more. Especially since games are quite cheap anyways. However for a game like ME2 I wouldn't pay that much because it's too linear. after watching the leaked vids and reading the script, Mass 3 looks like its even more linear than 2. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.


-Polite

[Arbiter156]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

 I just don't see how Bioware doesn't realize that this will ensure higher sales for the game. It adds value. Give us a game where our choices really do matter, and we can have wildly different playthroughs as you said. Considering all of the stuff they could have put into ME3, or 2 for that matter, I would have gladly paid $100 for it, or more. Why? Because we'd be getting more than one game. The value would be so high that it would make sense to pay more. Especially since games are quite cheap anyways. However for a game like ME2 I wouldn't pay that much because it's too linear. after watching the leaked vids and reading the script, Mass 3 looks like its even more linear than 2. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.


-Polite

 i find this somewhat cynical. what id like to point out is that ME3 doesnt look linear, due to the improved level design, i had a demo of sur'kesh over here in the UK some months back and i can safely say the level design was vastly improved. ME1 was actually very linear, though not as much as 2 which granted had awfull level design with the exception of the DLC's which showed that the level designers actually were still alive.

during my demo yes the level played out so that you had to go in a specific direction (like in ME1), the difference between ME3 and 2 is that in 3 there are multiple ways to go about an encounter. most if not all of the levels in 2 were long corridor with a conversation at the end, that didnt make it bad it just meant that unlike other parts of the game it wasn't inspiring.

during the sur'kesh demo i definitley got a similar vibe to what i got from virmire on ME1 which many people put as their favorite level from the first game, it was linear but it played out so that you felt you were really exploring the base. its the same with sur'kesh provided there are more missions like that ME3 will likely be the best in the series for level design.

also i like how everyone is assuming that the leaked "script" (less of a script more skeletal notes equivalent to those bioware had during the first writers meeting) is final. the demo sent to microsoft was already old because it would have taken bioware at least a month to construct it, the talk files themselves were probably even older i.e 3 months old or more likely pre E3. not to mention the files themsleves left most of the plot incomplete. 

the only thing that bioware really needs to deliver on is making sure all our chioces count in huge ways like they have been promising that is what will likely make or break ME3. 

 

[Phaedon]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
@Phaedon - no one said Javier or Pacifien was kissing up to Bioware. It's clearly evident however that you are.

Read Kaisers post again and stop drawing conclusions from stuff that isn't there, as usual.

Jav didn't kiss this much ass along the way (or at all, as I recall it)

A.

this much

or B.

at all

Reading what we want to read are we? =(

Oh, and by the way, Polite, you seem a bit angry to me, a bit stressed. One would even say that you are raging. Well, I know that you are frustrated to the point of accusing me of fanboyism. May I ask why?

It is the realization that the FPS kiddies that you have been considering yourself better of (Hooray, you play a different kind of video game, you must be a genius!) were the original crowd, after all, that stressful? That if anyone is to be entitled for being older fans, it's them?

I am asking you for two reasons. Every single thread that you make seems to end with you saying "Oh well, it looks like the fanboys/CoD kiddies have invaded the thread", so I assume that you have a somewhat unhealthy relationship with some certain gaming groups.

The second reason that I am asking you this, is because your definition of fanboyism can't be the product of a person with a calm state of mind. Surely, stating simple chronological facts doesn't count as fanboyism?

Now back in topic, I don't see what the problem is with having a game that's both strong in RPG and Shooter mechanics. Why can't we have a game with deep customization of character, weapons, skills, and exploration, inventory, loot, that also has strong TPS combat? I just don't see how Bioware doesn't realize that this will ensure higher sales for the game. It adds value. Give us a game where our choices really do matter, and we can have wildly different playthroughs as you said. Considering all of the stuff they could have put into ME3, or 2 for that matter, I would have gladly paid $100 for it, or more. Why? Because we'd be getting more than one game. The value would be so high that it would make sense to pay more. Especially since games are quite cheap anyways. However for a game like ME2 I wouldn't pay that much because it's too linear. after watching the leaked vids and reading the script, Mass 3 looks like its even more linear than 2. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.


-Polite

You know, opinions ARE funny things, aren't they?

You get people arguing for months that ME2's RPG elements are actually strong (and deep), Polite claims that you treat your opinions as facts, and then you get Polite flat out stating, in a "factual" manner... "Why can't a game have both strong shooter and RPG features, unlike ME2"?

Or maybe it's the blatant hypocrisy that is funny and not the opinions themselves.

Modifié par Phaedon, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Dreadwing 67]

Phaedon I am sorry how this has degraded into a shouting match, you need not explain to someone who missed the point and can not enjoy a d*mn game. Where this hate stems from, no one knows. Do I need to justify my view, no. I will enjoy ME3 to its full extent and I bet you will too.

Will Kaiser, Terror, Gatt, Cerberus Warrior enjoy it, at this rate no and it will be their own fault. Getting on a forum like this and ruining it for the rest of the people attributes to what humanity can boil down to. They will sh*t on the last piece of pizza just so no one will find any enjoyment out of it. Do I feel sorry for them, in a way. Am I p*ssed I get no fun what so ever where ever they post, yes.

Bottom line they have their mind set and so do we. Whether they'll fade sooner or later is up to fate.

Modifié par Dreadwing 67, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

Phaedon I am sorry how this has degraded into a shouting match, you need not explain to someone who missed the point and can not enjoy a d*mn game. Where this hate stems from, no one knows. Do I need to justify my view, no. I will enjoy ME3 to its full extent and I bet you will too.

Judging by the OP and the people Phaedon keeps responding to, it seems that the whole point of this thread is to bait posters like Gatt and Polite into arguing about how much their opinion matters on BSN. Counter-productive thread is counter-productive.

Phaedon, I don't know how you expect to eventually become a moderator when you willingly pick fights with certain antagonistic members of this board, but good luck with that. You had to have known what the outcome of this thread would be when you posted it.

[Merchant2006]

^ Yep. This thread is total bait so I honestly... yanno. Idc tbh. I'm gonna sit back and watch the bickering continue. I love when people separate other peoples posts and then respond to every single section.

It makes me think of that person as an a**hole. I really don't know why. Odd.

[Icinix]

Good / Funny post OP - but I always thought Original Fans either applied to people who were huge fans of what the first ME was and promised the future, or what BioWare became famous / peaked with - which was slower, methodical, deep RPG games.

In which case "Original Fans" is merely an issue of semantics.

[Eckswhyzee]

Terror_K wrote...

jreezy wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It doesn't make them any more entitled to get what they want but they are bigger fans.

That last sentence is actually what I was trying to say.

I still think new products of an IP should be made more for existing fans of the IP than for "potential new fans" and that an IP should be warped and changed to the point where it starts alienating those fans just to get new ones.

I think the problem here is that the Mass Effect IP (+fanbase) was never really well-defined to begin with. I really wish that Mass Effect 1 used Mass Effect 2's combat system. Then everyone on these boards that goes on and on about "dumbing down" and "shooter fanboys" would never have bought ME1 and would not  be around to have this pointless discussion.

[Savber100]

Merchant2006 wrote...

^ Yep. This thread is total bait so I honestly... yanno. Idc tbh. I'm gonna sit back and watch the bickering continue. I love when people separate other peoples posts and then respond to every single section.

It makes me think of that person as an a**hole. I really don't know why. Odd.

*joins Merchant and hands him (or her)  popcorn* 

Not going to lie but just reading the two sides taking shots at each other is very entertaining. :happy:

That said, coming from a I-don't-give-a-damn-but-I'm-bored crowd, I think both sides should tone down the "you're the fanboy" attacks. It just makes you look pathetic and a tad desperate. <_<

[Dreadwing 67]

Lol I'm going to try to turn fanboy mode off myself. Every time I try to argue, It feels like running into a wall 20 times and expecting a different result each time.

[Icinix]

Eckswhyzee wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

jreezy wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It doesn't make them any more entitled to get what they want but they are bigger fans.

That last sentence is actually what I was trying to say.

I still think new products of an IP should be made more for existing fans of the IP than for "potential new fans" and that an IP should be warped and changed to the point where it starts alienating those fans just to get new ones.

I think the problem here is that the Mass Effect IP (+fanbase) was never really well-defined to begin with. I really wish that Mass Effect 1 used Mass Effect 2's combat system. Then everyone on these boards that goes on and on about "dumbing down" and "shooter fanboys" would never have bought ME1 and would not  be around to have this pointless discussion.

*cough* / raises hand

I preferred ME1 combat system - people will think / write trollol, noob, or whatever is currently the poorly typed insult over the internet of the day is (I've been under a rock for a few months) - but I've held first since ME2 came out, that I preferred the combat of ME1 - Krogan Charge, Krogan Regen, Hoppers, Overheating weapons, shoot outs in NPC zones, Biotics bypassing shields etc.  It wasn't perfect, but it was so much more interesting than the generic shooter direction they took it in ME2.

[Dreadwing 67]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

Phaedon
I am sorry how this has degraded into a shouting match, you need not
explain to someone who missed the point and can not enjoy a d*mn game.
Where this hate stems from, no one knows. Do I need to justify my view,
no. I will enjoy ME3 to its full extent and I bet you will too.

Judging
by the OP and the people Phaedon keeps responding to, it seems that the
whole point of this thread is to bait posters like Gatt and Polite into
arguing about how much their opinion matters on BSN. Counter-productive
thread is counter-productive.

Phaedon, I don't know how you
expect to eventually become a moderator when you willingly pick fights
with certain antagonistic members of this board, but good luck with
that. You had to have known what the outcome of this thread would be
when you posted it.

[smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Take Phaedon out of my post, and regardless, I mean the rest of what I say

Modifié par Dreadwing 67, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Seboist]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

Phaedon I am sorry how this has degraded into a shouting match, you need not explain to someone who missed the point and can not enjoy a d*mn game. Where this hate stems from, no one knows. Do I need to justify my view, no. I will enjoy ME3 to its full extent and I bet you will too.

Judging by the OP and the people Phaedon keeps responding to, it seems that the whole point of this thread is to bait posters like Gatt and Polite into arguing about how much their opinion matters on BSN. Counter-productive thread is counter-productive.

Phaedon, I don't know how you expect to eventually become a moderator when you willingly pick fights with certain antagonistic members of this board, but good luck with that. You had to have known what the outcome of this thread would be when you posted it.

What else would you expect from him? This is the same guy who onced first invoked Godwin in a thread and when others responded to it he accused them of doing it first.  He's also labeled myself and Marshalleck as "sociopaths".  That's real classy behavior no doubt.

Thankfully BW has higher standards than that when it comes to who is acceptable for the position.