440 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

As someone already said my issue is she looks like she's forced on Shep's ship. There should be an option to suggest to her to stay with Feron somewhere that isn't the front lines. Even if it results in shep getting valuable intel later (or too late to be useful in some scenarios) I'd gladly pay that price not to have her on the Normandy.

I see no reason why I can't gimp myself from having squaddies if I'm not expecting anyone to take their place. If my Shep loses valuable intel and insight because of it? whatever. As long as I can beat the game and get a happy ending I do not care.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

As someone already said my issue is she looks like she's forced on Shep's ship. There should be an option to suggest to her to stay with Feron somewhere that isn't the front lines. Even if it results in shep getting valuable intel later (or too late to be useful in some scenario) I'd gladly pay that price not to have her on the Normandy.

So, limit swift access to useful information plus a powerful squadmate because you don't personally like her? Not a terribly good decision from Shepard...

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, limit swift access to useful information plus a powerful squadmate because you don't personally like her? Not a terribly good decision from Shepard...

Neither is punching reporters or running around with bullets flying everywhere without protective headgear.

Shepard has a right to derp.

K legit fell asleep at my computer time to relocate to the bunk.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
So, limit swift access to useful information plus a powerful squadmate because you don't personally like her? Not a terribly good decision from Shepard...

Shep's human. He's allowed to make a few bad decisions. It won't be the first and it won't be the last.

Besides it's a cost benefit scenario. Sure he gets access to the intel quicker but he also runs the risk of her being killed on the front lines. He'd find the alternative (slower intel access but higher safety) an acceptable tradeoff. Especially since her giving him the intel from a safe location isn't likely to be that much slower anyway.

Really I'd at least like the *option*. I'm not even asking for them to have Shep get someone else with the same skills/intel instead. I don't mind if it's like DA and if you don't have a certain squadmate you lose access on some things or certain information. (Like Oghren and his "this is a lot of lyrium." discover at the urn of sacred ashes).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, limit swift access to useful information plus a powerful squadmate because you don't personally like her? Not a terribly good decision from Shepard...

Neither is punching reporters or running around with bullets flying everywhere without protective headgear.

Shepard has a right to derp.

K legit fell asleep at my computer time to relocate to the bunk.

Granted. I suppose it makes another decent Renegade option.

[Ryzaki]

Why would it be renegade? It would be neutral at best. Or even paragon if Shep goes with the "you'll be safer." angle. Renegade would have her follow him regardless of the danger because her intel is more important.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Why would it be renegade? It would be neutral at best. Or even paragon if Shep goes with the "you'll be safer." angle. Renegade would have her follow him regardless of the danger because her intel is more important.

Well, just wanting to get rid of her, as you do, would be Renegade.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Why would it be renegade? It would be neutral at best. Or even paragon if Shep goes with the "you'll be safer." angle. Renegade would have her follow him regardless of the danger because her intel is more important.

Well, just wanting to get rid of her, as you do, would be Renegade.

Not unless Shep was getting rid of her via a shot in the face. Otherwise it's neutral.

Seriously though the reasons for not wanting to work with her would vary as would alignment. It would not necessarily be paragon or renegade. (Frankly I would hope the option would be neutral maybe with a paragon/renegade flavored persuade if it became necessary). An amicable parting so both parties can do their own thing helping each other as needed? Not really seeing that as renegade. And if Shep gets intel late other parties can get intel earlier. It could be an interesting "do you sacrifice X to keep Liara close?" kind of thing. I doubt the dev'll do it but still...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:34 .

[Dariustwinblade]

Liara was trained by commandos. Her mom and Dad are both commando leaders. She use to singlehanded take care of pirates and mercs in prothean dig site. I think those a better credentials than Tali and Ashley. All Ashley had was guard duty and combat simulation. No practical work.

[Ieldra]

Dariustwinblade wrote...
Liara was trained by commandos. [...] She use to singlehanded take care of pirates and mercs in prothean dig site.

Sounds like fanfiction to me. Sources? Oh, and if this from the leak it's after-the-fact justification.

I think those a better credentials than Tali and Ashley. All Ashley had was guard duty and combat simulation. No practical work.

The thing is....
(1) Ashley and Tali can die,
(2) you're not forced into a friendship with them,
(3) they don't get skills magically added to them in order to get a bigger role, thereby pushing others out who already have those skills,
(4) they're not set up to be favored in conflict scenarios in ME3 because of that role and
(5) they don't get their new, big roles as of ME2 compromised in order to put them on Shepard's team in ME3 while others get their plot relevance compromised to keep them out of the team.

Liara is set up to have everything in ME3 - she's on the team, she's Shepard's primary intelligence source, she has Shepard's trust by fiat of the writers, and she's the only LI guaranteed to be alive. The way things go, it's as Bioware is telling us "you've made the wrong choice" if you didn't romance Liara. Well, it won't influence my choices, and actually I don't really mind Liara's friendship, but I resent being told that, and the way she's treated in comparison is insulting to the others.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[CptData]

^ Ieldra2 you pretty much sum up why I can't romance Liara.
She might be a wonderful person, she's loveable and all - but she feels "forced on the player". Dunno if it has to do with "I'm a dude", but it's me who wants to take the first step. ^^

I like Liara, but romance? Doesn't work for me. However, that's just a matter of taste and as long as I can get my favored relationship including happy end, I'm fine.

Modifié par CptData, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[Xilizhra]

(3) they don't get skills magically added to them in order to get a bigger role, thereby pushing others out who already have those skills,

Liara and Miranda, both being in ME2, were implemented simultaneously. Miranda didn't exist for Liara to push out. If anything, Miranda was designed with skills redundant with Liara.

(5) they don't get their new, big roles as of ME2 compromised in order to put them on Shepard's team in ME3 while others get their plot relevance compromised to keep them out of the team.

There is no compromise. That's what my OP was about.

[Aramintai]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The thing is....
(1) Ashley and Tali can die,
(2) you're not forced into a friendship with them,
(3) they don't get skills magically added to them in order to get a bigger role, thereby pushing others out who already have those skills,
(4) they're not set up to be favored in conflict scenarios in ME3 because of that role and
(5) they don't get their new, big roles as of ME2 compromised in order to put them on Shepard's team in ME3 while others get their plot relevance compromised to keep them out of the team.

Liara is set up to have everything in ME3 - she's on the team, she's Shepard's primary intelligence source, she has Shepard's trust by fiat of the writers, and she's the only LI guaranteed to be alive. The way things go, it's as Bioware is telling us "you've made the wrong choice" if you didn't romance Liara. Well, it won't influence my choices, and actually I don't really mind Liara's friendship, but I resent being told that, and the way she's treated in comparison is insulting to the others.

I agree 100%. By the end of LotSB I actually started to hate this character, she's apparently most favored by devs, seeing how they force that Mary Sue on the player in both games. If she comes on on me again in ME3 or starts acting like she's on top of my Shepard's friends list I'm gonna throw her out of the airlock! 

Modifié par Aramintai, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

If anything, Miranda was designed with skills redundant with Liara.

1) His arguments had nothing to do with Miranda.
2) The quoted part is a laugh.

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

(3) they don't get skills magically added to them in order to get a bigger role, thereby pushing others out who already have those skills,

Liara and Miranda, both being in ME2, were implemented simultaneously. Miranda didn't exist for Liara to push out. If anything, Miranda was designed with skills redundant with Liara.

I'm not sure if that statement is what you believe or something I simply don't get. It doesn't make much sense to me: Miranda is neither replacing Liara nor has redundant skills. She's more "eyes and ears" of TIM, his "political officer" to ensure everyone stays in line and Shepard's XO.

That's an entirely different role than the one Liara fulfilled in ME1. In ME3 the VS is intended as "XO" afaik.

[wright1978]

I sort of feel that Liara should have been in ME2 considering it was all about the collectors who are actually protheans. For some reason they kept her out. They had to give her a new motivation and that was the shadowbroker. On paper her ME3 presence does seem contrived given the shawbroker role but guess i'll have to wait and see if it feels contrived when i play the game.

[AlexMBrennan]

I'd say that it's, technically, not contrived - BW needed an NPC to advance the plot, and Liara was picked for that role. After advancing the plot for 2 games, it's quite natural to have her have some role in ME3 as well.

[CptData]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I'd say that it's, technically, not contrived - BW needed an NPC to advance the plot, and Liara was picked for that role. After advancing the plot for 2 games, it's quite natural to have her have some role in ME3 as well.

Dunno. There were others left who also could do it. For example Gianna Parasini. She fits more the "SB deal" than Liara. However, she's just a minor character. But, as I said, she could have done it as well and it works for me.

Whatever, Liara is the new SB, I'm fine with that. I just wished a) Liara wouldn't spend most of her time with the crew of the Normandy in ME3 - she has more important stuff to do imo. I'm not sure if Feron can act as SB.
And , Liara's story about her sudden change from archeologist to intel broker needs to be elaborated far more, so that change is "IN character". Right now it feels more like a sudden change in her character to keep her in the story as driving force.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
If anything, Miranda was designed with skills redundant with Liara.

Well, Liara's character and skillset had to be replaced to give her the potential for being the SB, while Miranda was designed from the start to be a hypercompetent operative.

(5) they don't get their new, big roles as of ME2 compromised in order to put them on Shepard's team in ME3 while others get their plot relevance compromised to keep them out of the team.

There is no compromise. That's what my OP was about.

Yeah. Your OP is wrong.

That the contrivance at least makes a little sense (as opposed to how she got her new skillset in the first place) doesn't change the fact that it *does* compromise Liara's role as the SB to be part of Shepard's team. Which, yet again, I wouldn't mind if other, far less plausible contrivances weren't used to deny Miranda a big role.

(1) A lot of storytelling effort, some of it contrived, was spent to give Liara the position she has
(2) A lot of storytelling effort, some of it contrived, was spent to deny Miranda the big role she should have given the setup of ME3's plot.
(3) A lot of storytelling effort (no idea if any of it is contrived) was spent to give the player every reason to disown the VS.

The pattern becomes clear in comparison. Bioware is playing favorites with Liara, maybe even setting her up for canonical LI in any official narrative featuring the events of the games. Not quite sure if they're aware that this also makes her quite a bit less interesting. I like the ME1's reclusive archaeologist. I also liked ME2's badass information broker, though she was a different person. ME3's Liara I'll likely pass without comment.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[CptData]

Another posting full of truth, Ieldra2.

Can't say anything else except I concur.

Modifié par CptData, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[diamondedge]

Dragon Age II called, complaining is pointless and the lack of any real choice is nothing new with BioWare.

[mineralica]

CptData wrote...


Dunno. There were others left who also could do it. For example Gianna Parasini. She fits more the "SB deal" than Liara. However, she's just a minor character. But, as I said, she could have done it as well and it works for me.

Whatever, Liara is the new SB, I'm fine with that. I just wished a) Liara wouldn't spend most of her time with the crew of the Normandy in ME3 - she has more important stuff to do imo. I'm not sure if Feron can act as SB.
And , Liara's story about her sudden change from archeologist to intel broker needs to be elaborated far more, so that change is "IN character". Right now it feels more like a sudden change in her character to keep her in the story as driving force.

Random thoughts. If:

1) after Redemption Liara would continue to work as archaeologist, since Protheans, as the only species who can do something against the Reapers, look rather important in sight of future invasion

2) during her own work she'd notice some new unnamed force is interested in Protheans - the Shadow Broker

3) Shepard appears, Liara tells what happened to his body and tells that Shadow Broker is (was) in contact with Collectors and interested in Protheans. They decide that if agent of race working for Reapers is trying to find something out about the only race who opposed Reapers, then Protheans might have extra ace in sleeve and Collectors are searching for it. Shepard and Liara decide to investigate.

4) during this quest Shepard finds out that Collectors are Protheans. Liara is shocked and decides to dig deeper into this story

5) confrontation with SB - Feron as person familiar with SB network and as representative of race with absolute memory becomes the new Shadow Broker. Liara becomes his right hand with full access to information, but as primary objective continues to investigate Prothean / Collectors problem, spending many time "in field".

then her plot importance would stay intact, initial characterisation and occupation would continue as well, and finally it will be someone who didn't forget about Reapers coming after Shepard died.

Modifié par mineralica, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Seboist]

diamondedge wrote...

Dragon Age II called, complaining is pointless and the lack of any real choice is nothing new with BioWare.

Indeed, DA2 and ME3 killed off all interest I had in the stories of their respective series.