440 réponses à ce sujet

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I have no issues with Liara being Bioware's favourite and everything, because you can still play the game without her being Shepard's favourite. And that is what matters. You can even be a **** to her in ME1 if you wanted to.

Although, unless it is written well, I find it odd to find her as a permanent squaddie in ME3. I suspected she would be in a similar situation to Wrex. In an epic, high up postition, but because of that role, unable to join Shepard directly. But able to help Shepard through her information network.

After Lair of the Shadow Broker, there was that gleam in her eye that let me know that this was her job. That Liara was even obsessed with becoming the Shadow Broker. And that collating information and becoming the keeper of so much knowledge would consume all of er attention.

I can see her tagging along for a couple of relevant missions, but being a permanent squadmate certainly surprised me.

[fainmaca]

I've already shown in my fic how I believe Liara should be realistically portrayed in the game. She's tied up with the SB network (The ship is mobile, just because Cerberus knows where Hagalaz is doesn't mean that she can't take the ship elsewhere), but she maintains a constant presence as an important (but not the only) quest giver and is a temp squadmate for one or two missions. Of course, to appease Liaramancers she must be able to become a permanent squad mate at some point, but she should not be mandatory.

In short, this should be shepard's story, not the shepard and Liara show.

[KyreneZA]

Contrived? Debatable. Highly ironic? If that leaked VS-or-Liara choice makes it to the final product, you betcha.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Liara's character and skillset had to be replaced to give her the potential for being the SB, while Miranda was designed from the start to be a hypercompetent operative.

Her skillset certainly wasn't replaced; her archaeological skills seem to be intact. As for her character, Redemption didn't show it well, but canonically none of that was replaced either, just added to and altered.

(1) A lot of storytelling effort, some of it contrived, was spent to give Liara the position she has
(2) A lot of storytelling effort, some of it contrived, was spent to deny Miranda the big role she should have given the setup of ME3's plot.

I don't believe that 1 is contrived at all. 2... I don't know. On the surface, it seems as though Miranda could have had a larger role than any other ME2 squadmate, but certainly never more than ME1 squadmates, and Miranda isn't actually necessary for the Cerberus arc. Miranda's story was never about Cerberus as a whole so much as it was her own feelings towards them, and on other matters such as her family (really no different from any other squadmate). Only TIM is vital to Cerberus in the end.

(3) A lot of storytelling effort (no idea if any of it is contrived) was spent to give the player every reason to disown the VS.

I believe that anything to do with this plus Liara no longer exists.

The pattern becomes clear in comparison. Bioware is playing favorites with Liara, maybe even setting her up for canonical LI in any official narrative featuring the events of the games. Not quite sure if they're aware that this also makes her quite a bit less interesting. I like the ME1's reclusive archaeologist. I also liked ME2's badass information broker, though she was a different person. ME3's Liara I'll likely pass without comment.

It's only less interesting if you dislike the plot. It's hardly an objective thing, or some kind of issue of objectively good writing.

[SilvinC]

I don't care if it's contrived. She was only a side character in Mass Effect 2 and it's nice to have her back in the team.

[Asenza]

fainmaca wrote...

I've already shown in my fic how I believe Liara should be realistically portrayed in the game. She's tied up with the SB network (The ship is mobile, just because Cerberus knows where Hagalaz is doesn't mean that she can't take the ship elsewhere), but she maintains a constant presence as an important (but not the only) quest giver and is a temp squadmate for one or two missions. Of course, to appease Liaramancers she must be able to become a permanent squad mate at some point, but she should not be mandatory.

In short, this should be shepard's story, not the shepard and Liara show.

You mean ME1 Redux.

[DonutsDealer]

There is one simple mission why Liara is a permanent squad member and not Miranda. Liara is BW's favourite, she survives ME2 no matter what, she is the goddamn SB and she would rather stay with Shepard than in Hagalaz specially when Cerberus knows about it. She brings computers to the Normandy and problem solved. We also need an adept squadmember, which is Liara.

Now about Miri. She is important, of course, but the moment Shepard got the SR-2 she was as irrelevant to the plot as Jacob or Grunt. So I don't see why she should be in there instead of Liara.

Expendable character (known as Dat Ass) vs BW's favourite which is for sure in ME3 and the SB. Who wins for squad member? Obviously Liara, which I'm happy with, you get to see the ME1 squad together again.

Modifié par DonutsDealer, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.
 

It's not contrived from a story perspective.

The only reason for her not to be around is 'my Shepard doesn't like her and doesn't want her around' which can be said of any squad mate in any game.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.
 

It's not contrived from a story perspective.

The only reason for her not to be around is 'my Shepard doesn't like her and doesn't want her around' which can be said of any squad mate in any game.

Just like people don't want to hug, shake hands, see or hear a character, etc.

Sometimes I think giving too many options goes too far. Where everything must be activated by Shepard, or the main character. It makes things more robotic then realistic, leaving that much control over the player. Or more empty, because writers have to make things more vague, so it works either way. Leaving out moments that should happen.

Like with Arrival. Some want Shepard to emote after destroying a system. Some don't want him to emote. So what you get is barely an emote.

[Ryzaki]

If you want a more personal story at the stake of player options I'd suggest playing a game that isn't an RPG or JRPGsor hell just staying away from BioWare games And I'm not trying to insult anyone *plays and enjoys JRPGs*. Or stick to playing RPGs that don't let you choose how you interact with different characters/

BW games have almost always (at least since BG2) let you treat your party members in a variety of ways and have said party members react to that. I love that. Forced friendships are boring to me especially when the game is supposedly about choice. Being antagonistic or friends or turning an antagonistic character into a friend (or vice versa) is pretty standard BW fare.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[TMA LIVE]

From what I'm gathering, people want more choice from why they joined Cerberus, choosing another faction, shooting people at random, crying over the death of someone, and not hugging. And I bet some will complain about Shepard emoting to the death of that kid.

Bioware wants to tell a cinematic story, where you're given choice. What they aren't giving you is control over everything.

If you want more control, play Skyrim. That player character in that game is vague for a reason. Same with player relationships.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Ryzaki]

TMA LIVE wrote...

From what I'm gathering, people want more choice from why they joined Cerberus, choosing another faction, shooting people at random, crying over the death of someone, and not hugging. And I bet some will complain about Shepard emoting to the death of that kid.

Bioware wants to tell a cinematic story, where you're given choice. What they aren't giving you is control over everything.

If you want that, play Skyrim. That player character in that game is vague for a reason. Same with player relationships.

Control over everything? Who has ever asked for that. What you just listed is people wanting more choice sure but not control over everything. And yes being able to justify and better control my Shep's options would be nice. Even if BW can only put certain options in it's better than nothing at all.

And yes BW is giving choice and players are putting in input as to what they want choice over. There's nothing wrong with that. They've been doing it for a while.

Skyrim has barebones character relationships to begin with you can't say "oh you want that so play Skyrim." what I want is a choice between being friendly/hostile to dynamic characters and have that affect my PC's relationship with them throughout the quest. There isn't really a wealth of such options in Skyrim considering the main PC is mostly on his/her own with maybe 1 follower. It's mostly "do X's quest or kill him or her." so it's not remotely the same.

If you want a cinematic game where you have no choice in character interaction there are a wealth of games you can play.

And if people think I'm whining about it whatever. Whining is the only thing BW seems to listen to.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Vilio1]

Forced friendships are still better than forced non-friendships, and Liara's friendship isn't even forced (some dialogue options on Ilium are quite the opposite).

[Ryzaki]

Vilio1 wrote...

Forced friendships are still better than forced non-friendships, and Liara's friendship isn't even forced (some dialogue options on Ilium are quite the opposite).

I disagree about the former part. I'd rather have a forced enemy than a forced friend. And what dialogue options are you talking about? 

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.
 

It's not contrived from a story perspective.

The only reason for her not to be around is 'my Shepard doesn't like her and doesn't want her around' which can be said of any squad mate in any game.

Just like people don't want to hug, shake hands, see or hear a character, etc.

That's not it. In Liara's case, her job as the SB should be a full-time job and she shouldn't be on the team. You could make a similar case for Miranda: she's (ex-)Cerberus and wouldn't be trusted by a mainly Alliance team. In both cases, you could twist the story to get the characters on the team in spite of these factors, yet in case of Liara it was done while for Miranda it was not done. Instead, there is a point in the story where Miranda can and should join the team, and they've twisted the story in order to prevent her from it in spite of her overwhelming plot potential.

So, the story was twisted in order to bring Liara in, and it was twisted to keep Miranda out and the VS distrusted by the player. What makes it all more annoying that between ME1 and ME2 Liara's story wasn't just twisted, no, her character and skillset was completely replaced in order to give her a bigger role. So there were *repeated* unconvincing story twists (=contrivances) to put her where she is.

Now...I have to admit that *should* Miranda's and the VS's story be presented in a satisfactory manner, they could end up quite a bit more interesting than Liara's, for what's a story without conflict and Liara is "safe". But Liar's super-important role as Shepard's intelligencer plus ignoring Miranda's plot potential resulting in a lack of screen presence at important points in the story, and the *repeated* opportunities to get rid of the VS, which after the first come across as invitations to get rid of them, that sends the message "Should've chosen Liara...."   

Of course I can and will ignore that message. But the mere fact that it's there is hugely annoying, and the way Liara is favored is an understandable cause for resentment. At least unless ME3 shows us that the other characters' story arcs are awesome enough to make up for it.

Sometimes I think giving too many options goes too far. Where everything must be activated by Shepard, or the main character. It makes things more robotic then realistic, leaving that much control over the player. Or more empty, because writers have to make things more vague, so it works either way. Leaving out moments that should happen.

Like with Arrival. Some want Shepard to emote after destroying a system. Some don't want him to emote. So what you get is barely an emote.

That's what Paragon and Renegade options are for. You already have the option to warn them or not to. If you warn them, it would be plausible for Shepard to emote, if you don't, it wouldn't.

And in a game like this, with its "write your own story" approach, there must be space for interpretation. The vagueness is necessary. Finding the right balance between strong characterization and leaving enough space for interpretation isn't easy I guess, but I think Bioware did pretty well in most cases so far. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Vilio1 wrote...

Forced friendships are still better than forced non-friendships, and Liara's friendship isn't even forced (some dialogue options on Ilium are quite the opposite).

I think it's more the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC where people feel forced into friendship.

I do have a question because I'm honestly trying to understand how staying in her Lair is optimal?  Does Liara have a private army like the Yahg Shadowbroker did when he was in power or is it still just her and Feron?  If not, then I'd expect she'd be very vulnerable with the Illusive Man knowing who and where she is.  Part of the Shadowbroker's power is derived from anonymity.  Once that anonymity is comprised, she'd be in danger just as Shepard finding out and facing off against Yahg Shadowbroker brought about his end.

I guess I'm saying...despite all of her resources.  She's not that safe.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Vilio1]

Ryzaki wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

Forced friendships are still better than forced non-friendships, and Liara's friendship isn't even forced (some dialogue options on Ilium are quite the opposite).

I disagree about the former part. I'd rather have a forced enemy than a forced friend. And what dialogue options are you talking about? 

Liara: I gave it (Shepards remains) to cerberus

Shepard has two options for a response to her:
- my mission is important
- How could you!!! <_<

That's not exactly what my Liara romancing Shepard wanted to say.

[alex90c]

Ryzaki wrote...

Vilio1 wrote...

Forced friendships are still better than forced non-friendships, and Liara's friendship isn't even forced (some dialogue options on Ilium are quite the opposite).

I disagree about the former part. I'd rather have a forced enemy than a forced friend. And what dialogue options are you talking about? 

Can't say I'm a fan of forced enemies. I wanted a Shepard that didn't hate and get frustrated with the Council in ME1 but it was just impossible. Sure it worked perfectly for my first playthrough (seriously, that Council pissed me off so much, lol, and Shepard getting angry was just perfect) but when I wanted to RP a different character, my only option in my meetings with them was 

                                   RAGE
                            /
Investigate --O -  RAGE 
                            \\
                                  RAGE

Modifié par alex90c, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:15 .

[DJRackham]

fainmaca wrote...

I've already shown in my fic how I believe Liara should be realistically portrayed in the game. She's tied up with the SB network (The ship is mobile, just because Cerberus knows where Hagalaz is doesn't mean that she can't take the ship elsewhere), but she maintains a constant presence as an important (but not the only) quest giver and is a temp squadmate for one or two missions. Of course, to appease Liaramancers she must be able to become a permanent squad mate at some point, but she should not be mandatory.

In short, this should be shepard's story, not the shepard and Liara show.

Regarding the Shadow Broker base. I got the idea from LotSB that the ship was purpose built for the atmosphere and conditions of Hagalaz. Not sure that it's actually space worthy or even operational outside the atmosphere of the planet.

[TMA LIVE]

@ Ieldra2 Face it, if you wanted her around, you wouldn't be here complaining about why she shouldn't be around. Bringing someone like Miranda up is just confirming that you want to trade one favoritism for another.

And I know people will disagree with you on Arrival. Some could just be warning the colonies because it's the right thing to do, but personally don't care. They wouldn't want a "forced" crying scene if they believed their Shepard wouldn't do it.

However, some would want it. Some would want Shepard crying the second the Relay blew up. But it didn't happen.

Or a renegade might want to cry, but cry because he did something he can't escape the law from.

You can't get everything from a one of the other choice. Thus we're stuck with this vague crap, with people arguing that Shepard is a brick.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[Ryzaki]

Village Idiot wrote...
I think it's more the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC where people feel forced into friendship.

I do have a question because I'm honestly trying to understand how staying in her Lair is optimal?  Does Liara have a private army like the Yahg Shadowbroker did when he was in power or is it still just her and Feron?  If not, then I'd expect she'd be very vulnerable with the Illusive Man knowing who and where she is.  Part of the Shadowbroker's power is derived from anonymity.  Once that anonymity is comprised, she'd be in danger just as Shepard finding out and facing off against Yahg Shadowbroker brought about his end.

I guess I'm saying...despite all of her resources.  She's not that safe.

Actually I do not expect her to stay where she was. And considering there's places like the Sanctuary and Shep can send those biotic kids to a safehouse there *are* safe places (relatively and much more so than the normandy) for people to go.

Vilio1 wrote...
Liara: I gave it (Shepards remains) to cerberus [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Shepard has two options for a response to her:
- my mission is important [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
- How could you!!! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

That's not exactly what my Liara romancing Shepard wanted to say.

I hated that because my Shep's "how could you" was met with a "how was I supposed to let my friend die?!?" and then shep looks chastized as if that's the greatest arguement ever and he was in the wrong. >.< And it was less of a how could you and more of a "You gave me to Cerberus? Why?" he doesn't even sound mad.

alex90c wrote...

Can't say I'm a fan of forced enemies. I wanted a Shepard that didn't hate and get frustrated with the Council in ME1 but it was just impossible. Sure it worked perfectly for my first playthrough (seriously, that Council pissed me off so much, lol, and Shepard getting angry was just perfect) but when I wanted to RP a different character, my only option in my meetings with them was 

                                   RAGE
                            /
Investigate --O -  RAGE 
                           
                                  RAGE

Huh? You could be quite polite to the council actually. (on my uber paragon playthrough I was a bit annoyed by how understanding he was to all their crap. ) Keep picking paragon. The only time Shep's Rage rage rage is when they're going "la la la" about Saren and the paragon option still sounds decidedly neutral to me.


But see it's not good either way in truth. I'd much rather have forced enemies though because chances are they're not that useful to begin with.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:48 .

[Fiannawolf]

As far as various disscussions of "Whos Favorite characters get more facetime in 3" arguements go:

ME2 almost completely ignored ME1 characters to set up all the newbies in 2. Sure Liara got a DLC in the end but I think that was mainly due to her not being a Virmire Option in 1. She's alive reguardless of a sheps options/choices so they made her the spring board for tie ins as SB/comics ect.


Am I glad as a fan she got more time via DLC, hell yes, but I didnt start out a fan of the character. I was exclusively a Kai Shep shipper for 3 games until I saw some awesome fanfic for Liara, then I tried it out.

ME2 is hiiighly dissapointing from my Kai/Ash angles. Ash as a friend and Kai as a LI for the other 2. It sucked royal. I wasnt able to do a damned thing to help either of them. Game just wouldnt let me tie or patch things. Yes, it sucks that only Liara got that option. Yes I am dissapointed and saddened that Ill have to wait til 3 to get Kai and Ash back on my side or repair the relationship but thats why Im glad the Me2 peeps were regulated to sub roles.

We have to fix our ME1 plot hangers before we can help Me2 characters. Yes, Im sorry to see Miranda, Samara, and Kasumi go (since I used them alot in 2) but if they have satisfying LOTSB missions to tie up thier plots, Ill be happy. They cant please everyone at once, it sucks but they might ME1 treat your Me2 favorites! It sucks, happened to all ME1 fans when bioware was trying to get new fans. In me3s case, they are doing something similar, they want tons of new fans without alot of previous play baggage.

Sure they have some ideas for carry over from 1/2 but how extensive will it be??? Dont know even from all the leaked stuff Ive read. Im just gonna wait it out and see what they end up putting in the game. Sad fact is that your favorites will be pushed back for other storylines happing in the game.

Hell, james vega is the noob for ME series noobs. He's taking the place of (FAVORITE CHARACTER HERE). Cant do anything to change that.

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...
@ Ieldra2 Face it, if you wanted her around, you wouldn't be here complaining about why she shouldn't be around. Bringing someone like Miranda up is just confirming that you want to trade one favoritism for another.

Don't presume to tell me my motivations. None of my favorites is on the team, yet you won't see me complaining that Ashley/Kaidan are. We can easily keep things between Liara and the VS if it makes you get the point better.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
Control over everything? Who has ever asked for that. What you just listed is people wanting more choice sure but not control over everything. And yes being able to justify and better control my Shep's options would be nice. Even if BW can only put certain options in it's better than nothing at all.

Which 'certain options'?  They already have options in some places.

I'm sure everyone around here can give an example of a time in ME1 or ME2 where there wasn't an option presented that matched what they wanted their Shepard to do.  I can give plenty, but I don't worry too much about it b/c BW doesn't create these options with my Shepard always in mind.

"Hmmm...what would jlb524's Shepard do?"

They can give more options but there will always be a limit and there will always be cases where there's a 'good' choice missing for your particular Shepard.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...
Which 'certain options'?  They already have options in some places.

I'm sure everyone around here can give an example of a time in ME1 or ME2 where there wasn't an option presented that matched what they wanted their Shepard to do.  I can give plenty, but I don't worry too much about it b/c BW doesn't create these options with my Shepard always in mind.

"Hmmm...what would jlb524's Shepard do?"

They can give more options but there will always be a limit and there will always be cases where there's a 'good' choice missing for your particular Shepard.

Certain options simply being more.

And sure that doesn't mean no one can ask for more options. Otherwise half the threads on this forum should disappear.

That's true. That does not mean however I can't ask BW to provide me for a good choice for my Shepard. Whether it's suggesting a certain character to leave, interacting with them a certain way (mostly just being professional instead of acting like a close friend) or killing them off to avoid the issue. I don't even have a "Meh this'll do." choice let alone a good one. 

I have one (or more) of those options with every single other squaddie. I would like one with Liara too. That's all.

I'm asking (not demanding) more options so I can have a better game. That's it. Most people on this forum do the exact same thing just with different subjects.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:15 .