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[Eclipse_9990]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Gonna have a hard time having a conversation if you're dead. :/
Unless Liara has a Ouija board I don't know about.

So your Sheps only real option is to deal with it, or continue to be bitter about it. It's your Shep, and you can do whatever you want, but being angry, and bitter about this for so long just seems really tiresome, and pointless.

Honestly if I had to work with someone whiney like that for an extended period of time, on a mission as critical, and important like this. I'd be very tempted to punch him/her in the face... Or shoot him/her in the back(when no ones looking of course).  

Especially when there's more important things to deal with. 

Considering my Shep came back from the SM alive I don't see how that'll be difficult.

So not liking someone's actions is whiney now? People really do love to throw that word around for the most asinine things. Though I do wish Liara would try to punch my Shep in the face. Maybe then he'd stop treating her like she's his friend and if Liara was spineless enough to attack Shep in the back oh yes. Seeing her get the crap beat out of her (because Shep's plot shield is at least 3 miles thick) will be glorious.

Well just imagine this. You're stuck in a potentially life threatening mission with someone for months at at a time, and all your team mate does is act very obviously bitter all the time; the people around said person would more certainly end up hating him/her or at the very least not like him/her very much. Especially if that person happens to be leading a large team of trained killers/professionals. People have mutinied for stuff like that you know.

Though Shep has 100 meter thick plot armor to prevent such things. You can get away with certain stuff in a video game, like being a jerk to everyone on your crew without eventually getting murdered(Douchey Renegade Shep).

When I said the I would punch/shoot a person in that situation that was from a real life perspective. 
I'm just saying that kind of Shep would be too unsufferable to be around, and would most likely, and probably does put his personal problems ahead of the mission he would be a hinderance. But this is a fictional story, so obivously stuff like that would happen. 

It would be awesome though if games could work like that, and got rid of plot armor entirely, but PC's would die a lot more often if that happened so I doubt it. 

The point of this rant was to say that maybe you're Shep should try to put things in perspective, and I dunno; forgive Liara, maybe? He certainly has the right to be angry if he feels this way, but people make mistakes. Making enemies, and being bitter all the time doesn't help anyone. It just alienates you, and makes you more miserable.

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Goody Two Shoes]

*removed*

Modifié par Goody Two Shoes, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well just imagine this. You're stuck in a potentially life threatening mission with someone for months at at a time, and all your team mate does is act very obviously bitter all the time; the people around said person would more certainly end up hating him/her or at the very least not like him/her very much. Especially if that person happens to be leading a large team of trained killers/professionals. People have mutinied for stuff like that you know.

Where did I say my Shep would be acting bitter all the time? Him not being all buddy buddy to Liara =! acting bitter towards her. (now he *is* bitter at her but he's professional enough to not show it openly. People do this all the time.) 
The discussion I wanted with him asking her why he handed him over to Cerberus? I'd been just fine with it ending like this:

"I wouldn't let my friend die Shepard." 

Shepard frowns opens his mouth before shaking his head and going "Alright Liara. What have you got for me." 

He still disagrees with what she said but the conversation ends right there because Shep realizes there's more important things to do.

At most he'd mope alone at times and keep the door shut and only talk to her when it's business related. And while people may have mutined for that stuff what makes you think Liara would be the type? There's absolutely nothing in game that suggests she would be.

Though Shep has 100 meter thick plot armor to prevent such things. You can get away with certain stuff in a video game, like being a jerk to everyone on your crew without getting murdered eventually(Douchey Renegade Shep).

When I said the I would punch/shoot a person in that situation that was from a real life perspective. 
I'm just saying that kind of Shep would be too unsufferable to be around, and would most likely, and probably does put his personal problems ahead of the mission he would be a hinderance. But this is a fictional story, so obivously stuff like that would happen.

Exactly. Shep's plot shield is glorious.

You would shoot someone because they dared not to be friends with you after you handed their body over to a terrorist organization and wasn't even working with them when they brought you back to life to make sure they didn't do anything fishy to the body? No offense but you'd have a lot of nerve. You gave a group of people that have no problem torturing, experimenting and being all around douches to innocent people a carte blanche on your friend's corpse.

You may have agonized over the decision and it may have been hard for you but that does not give you the right to belittle how they feel about it. It was their body that was used not yours.

And this is my own personal bias coming out because I am a very "do not mess with someone else's body without their consent." person. I will not deny that. If I heard my brother gave me over to some crazy scientists to bring me back to life with no oversight my first reaction would probably be to punch him as hard as I can in the face. Logical? Nope. But like I said it's my bias. I can not condone using someone's body without their consent if they will feel the effects of it. (If they're dead they're dead but don't mess with their body to bring them back to life). 

It would be awesome though if games could work like that, and got rid of plot armor entirely, but PC's would die a lot more often if that happened so I doubt it. 

The point of this rant was to say that maybe you're Shep should try to put things in perspective, and I dunno; forgive Liara, maybe? He certainly has the right to be angry if he feels this way, but people make mistakes; making enemies, and being bitter all the time doesn't help anyone. It just alienates you, and makes you more miserable.

It wouldn't happen. Someone has to carry the plot along. Easiest to give it to the PC who already has plotshield.

He doesn't have to forgive her to work with her. And again he doesn't have to be bitter and screaming all the time like renedouche. And being bitter at one person when working on a squad of at least 7+ (including the crew) is not alienating himself. Liara is not the only person on the Normandy he can talk to unprofessionally. (he has Garrus, Joker and Tali for that).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:10 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Ryzaki wrote...

Exactly. Shep's plot shield is glorious.

Indeed

Ryzaki wrote...

You would shoot someone because they dared not to be friends with you after you handed their body over to a terrorist organization and wasn't even working with them when they brought you back to life to make sure they didn't do anything fishy to the body? No offense but you'd have a lot of nerve.

No, no; not at all. If they didn't want to be friends with me; I would just keep things professional, and ignore them for everything not mission critical. I'm saying that if I did go out of my way to do such a thing(obviously because I cared about that person very much), and that person is constantly being hostile to me over it, and I apologized(Not saying Liara necessarily apologized; maybe that should be an option for sheps that want that. I'm just saying I would apologize if it bugged them that much.), and if said person was constantly harassing me over it(Keep in mind most companion conversations in Mass Effect depend on the PLAYER coming to the NPC).

I would be very tempted to punch or shoot said person if such behavior persisted. (Most likely the former)

*Bolded so these parts are more readable*

Ryzaki wrote...

It wouldn't happen. Someone has to carry the plot along. Easiest to give it to the PC who already has plotshield.

I know; I just think it would be an interesting, and fun idea. Mostly interesting.

Ryzaki wrote...

He doesn't have to forgive her to work with her. And again he doesn't have to be bitter and screaming all the time like renedouche. And being bitter at one person when working on a squad of at least 7+ (including the crew) is not alienating himself. Liara is not the only person on the Normandy he can talk to unprofessionally. (he has Garrus, Joker and Tali for that).

No he doesn't have to, but if he has to work with her(especially since she's the shadow broker, and is supporting him siginifcantly) he should atleast make an effort to be civil. Just like with the Council. Yeah they were jerks to me after I saved them, but as Shep said "there's no point in burning bridges", and I'd rather bite my tongue than lose potential, and powerful allies. 

Also if the Shep doesn't feel that way he can always just talk to her when its necessary(and even then end the conversation quickly), and just never talk to said person unless it has to do with something mission critical. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
No, no. Not at all. If they didn't want to be friends with me; I would just keep things professional, and ignore them for everything not mission critical. I'm saying that if I did go out of my way to do such a thing(obviously because I cared about that person very much), and that person is constantly being hostile to me over it, and I apologized(Not saying Liara necessarily apologized; maybe that should be an option for sheps that want that. I'm just saying I would apologize if it bugged them that much.), and if said person was constantly harassing me over it(Keep in mind most companion conversations in Mass Effect depend on the PLAYER coming to the NPC) I would be very tempted to punch or shoot said person if such behavior persisted.

Where did I say Shep was constantly being hostile though? One line (I edited the post so please reread over it and see if you agree) where Shep knows he and Liara aren't gonna agree but decides not to make a big show of it. Without acting like a chastized child.

I liked declining the offer for Liara to head to the Normandy (ruined by the effect that up til then they were playing the buddy act) wasn't keen on the sad face she made and how the game focused on it like I was a terrible person kicking a puppy but whatever.

And believe me my Shep would not bother constantly harassing Liara. He'd stay away from her unless it was important. The mission is too important for him to waste time arguing about somethng that's not gonna change and just will make both of them agitated and ruin their focus.

I know; I just think it would be an interesting, and fun idea. Mostly interesting.

It would just lead to decoy protagonists.

No he doesn't have to, but if he has to work with her(especially since she's the shadow broker, and is supporting him siginifcantly) he should atleast make an effort to be civil. Just like with the Council yeah they were jerks to me after I saved them, but as Shep said "there's no point in burning bridges", and losing potential allies. 

Also if the Shep doesn't feel that way he can always just talk to her when its necessary(and even then end the conversation quickly), and just never talk to said person unless it has to do with something mission critical. 

Again being civil =! being friendly. Miranda on Lazarus station was civil (until Shep started digging into her personal life and then she reacted like Shep had no right to pry which he didn't.)

I'm not asking for the option to constantly belittle Liara (got enough of that in ME1 thanks). Just for the option for Shep to side step her trying to hug him (if another one occurs and interrupt it with a handshake) and to not have back and forth with her like they're old chumps.

Which is what my Shep will do. I'd just appreciate it if during those forced interactions they didn't act like old pals.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:18 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Ryzaki wrote...

Where did I say Shep was constantly being hostile though? One line (I edited the post so please reread over it and see if you agree) where Shep knows he and Liara aren't gonna agree but decides not to make a big show of it.

And believe me my Shep would not bother constantly harassing Liara. He'd stay away from her unless it was important. The mission is too important for him to waste time arguing about somethng that's not gonna change and just will make both of them agitated and ruin their focus. 

I reread your edited post, and I see where you're coming from. I thought you were just one of those players who hates a character, yet talks to them all the time for the sole purpose of being a jerk to them. I apologize for my assumption. 

Ryzaki wrote...


It would just lead to decoy protagonists.

I know; it would just be pretty interesting to play a heavy choice role playing game(whether action based or traditional) where the player isn't pretty much God. Though I mostly think this would be fun, because of the eventual forum commentary.

"I got caught killing a little girl in *insert city here*, and now I'm wanted by the police in almost every place I go! Also when I try to go to jail for it; it always says I got shanked in a prison shower! This game is broken!"

Ryzaki wrote...

Again being civil =! being friendly. Miranda on Lazarus station was civil (until Shep started digging into her personal life and then she reacted like Shep had no right to pry which he didn't.)

Fair enough. Once again I posted this on the assumption that you were purposily goading her, and I apologize for it.

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm not asking for the option to constantly belittle Liara (got enough of that in ME1 thanks). Just for the option for Shep to side step her trying to hug him (if another one occurs and interrupt it with a handshake) and to not have back and forth with her like they're old chumps.

Which is what my Shep will do. I'd just appreciate it if during those forced interactions they didn't act like old pals.

This is a reasonable option. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not asking for the option to constantly belittle Liara (got enough of that in ME1 thanks). Just for the option for Shep to side step her trying to hug him (if another one occurs and interrupt it with a handshake) and to not have back and forth with her like they're old chumps.

If it's optional. Not having any banter would make things empty for those who do want it, and... to be honest, since Liara fans are going to be the ones spending more money on DLC all about Liara, if choice would be too hard to implement, they did it the reasonable way.

[Ryzaki]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I reread your edited post, and I see where you're coming from. I thought you were just one of those players who hates a character, yet talks to them all the time for the sole purpose of being a jerk to them. I apologize for my assumption.

Ah no problem. I don't talk to a character if I don't like them unless it's necessary. Don't see the point in agitating myself.

I know; it would just be pretty interesting to play a heavy choice role playing game(whether action based or traditional) where the player isn't pretty much God. Though I mostly think this would be fun, because of the eventual forum commentary.

"I got caught killing a little girl in *insert city here*, and now I'm wanted by the police in almost every place I go! Also when I try to go to jail for it; it always says I got shanked in a prison shower! This game is broken!"

Eh not so fun. If I wanted to do that I'd just go outside.

Though that would be funny as a dead end. (I lol'd when I played Fate/Extra and got skewered for trying to take on someone my PC couldn't beat).

Fair enough. Once again I posted this on the assumption that you were purposily goading her, and I apologize for it.

Ah no problem.

This is a reasonable option. 

Thanks. That's all I wanted recognized. Not that it was agreeable or even something someone agreed with but that asking for it wasn't "stupid" or unreasonable.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:44 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not asking for the option to constantly belittle Liara (got enough of that in ME1 thanks). Just for the option for Shep to side step her trying to hug him (if another one occurs and interrupt it with a handshake) and to not have back and forth with her like they're old chumps.

If it's optional. Not having any banter would make things empty for those who do want it, and... to be honest, since Liara fans are going to be the ones spending more money on DLC all about Liara, if choice would be too hard to implement, they did it the reasonable way.

Yeah that's the whole thing with my arguement. I want it optional. I don't want Liara lovers forced to be professional anymore than I want to be forced to be friendly.

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not asking for the option to constantly belittle Liara (got enough of that in ME1 thanks). Just for the option for Shep to side step her trying to hug him (if another one occurs and interrupt it with a handshake) and to not have back and forth with her like they're old chumps.

If it's optional. Not having any banter would make things empty for those who do want it, and... to be honest, since Liara fans are going to be the ones spending more money on DLC all about Liara, if choice would be too hard to implement, they did it the reasonable way.

Yeah that's the whole thing with my arguement. I want it optional. I don't want Liara lovers forced to be professional anymore than I want to be forced to be friendly.

Unfortunately, no-input banter can't really have choices in it. I imagine there'll be less of it in ME3.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unfortunately, no-input banter can't really have choices in it. I imagine there'll be less of it in ME3.

To be honest I'd rather no banter at all than banter that contradicts my characterization however I have no problem pretending it doesn't exist as long as it's not constant or long going. If it's once or twice (or even better if it fires if I select Liara for my squad when I didn't have to and I can avoid it entirely by just not selecting her for the squad) I'll just push it from my mind.

Frankly though I'd prefer if most of the banter was focused on squaddie/squaddie relationships those are what actually need fleshing out.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:53 .

[Estelindis]

Xili, I actually agree that it's not contrived for Liara to be involved with the story at a deep level from ME1 onwards. However, personally, I wish that Bioware had done something different with her rather than having her find Shepard's body and then become Shadow Broker.  I wish the writers had focused on her role as a prothean expert and as one who had shared the cipher and Shepard's visions. To my mind, after the attack on the Normandy - when Shepard, who had the most intimate knowledge of the protheans' message, was killed - Liara's role should have been tireless focus on the Reaper threat, making sure that the message she had shared was listened to by people who would act on it, that the sacrifice of the last protheans would not be in vain. Given that the Reapers are the main plot thread running through the trilogy, that would have provided all the justification Bioware would have ever needed for keeping Liara central throughout the narrative.

(Edit: By the way, I think that if Shepard's body had been tracked down by just Miranda and Jacob that would have created a hugely personal connection with those characters and made many people's feelings about Cerberus more conflicted.  Off the top of my head, though, I'm not sure what other character would have made a great replacement Shadow Broker.)

Modifié par Estelindis, 07 décembre 2011 - 02:17 .

[TMA LIVE]

I more of prefer that it's Liara that saves your body, because unlike with Miranda and Jacob (who are strangers), you actually have a history with her. And because of that, you can tell her "It was you! You did this to me!". You're yelling at someone you had history with. Not some random Cerberus agent you've only just met in ME2.

As for the Prothean expert thing, honestly I always saw it as a temp job. From what I'm hearing it might come back in ME3, but honestly, I always saw that part of her life to be something she'd grow out of. It'll still be apart of her of course, but it would also be replaced by something else.

[who would know]

I'm gonna agree with the sentiment that Liara's character was mishandled in ME2, including LotSB. I think what Estelindis suggested would have been way preferable.

[HiroVoid]

Estelindis wrote...

Xili, I actually agree that it's not contrived for Liara to be involved with the story at a deep level from ME1 onwards. However, personally, I wish that Bioware had done something different with her rather than having her find Shepard's body and then become Shadow Broker.  I wish the writers had focused on her role as a prothean expert and as one who had shared the cipher and Shepard's visions. To my mind, after the attack on the Normandy - when Shepard, who had the most intimate knowledge of the protheans' message, was killed - Liara's role should have been tireless focus on the Reaper threat, making sure that the message she had shared was listened to by people who would act on it, that the sacrifice of the last protheans would not be in vain. Given that the Reapers are the main plot thread running through the trilogy, that would have provided all the justification Bioware would have ever needed for keeping Liara central throughout the narrative.

(Edit: By the way, I think that if Shepard's body had been tracked down by just Miranda and Jacob that would have created a hugely personal connection with those characters and made many people's feelings about Cerberus more conflicted.  Off the top of my head, though, I'm not sure what other character would have made a great replacement Shadow Broker.)

....Oh wow.  I never thought about it too much, but it's actually surprising how much it feels like Liara really should have been a squadmate in ME2 with the connection between the Protheans.

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xili, I actually agree that it's not contrived for Liara to be involved with the story at a deep level from ME1 onwards. However, personally, I wish that Bioware had done something different with her rather than having her find Shepard's body and then become Shadow Broker.  I wish the writers had focused on her role as a prothean expert and as one who had shared the cipher and Shepard's visions. To my mind, after the attack on the Normandy - when Shepard, who had the most intimate knowledge of the protheans' message, was killed - Liara's role should have been tireless focus on the Reaper threat, making sure that the message she had shared was listened to by people who would act on it, that the sacrifice of the last protheans would not be in vain. Given that the Reapers are the main plot thread running through the trilogy, that would have provided all the justification Bioware would have ever needed for keeping Liara central throughout the narrative.

(Edit: By the way, I think that if Shepard's body had been tracked down by just Miranda and Jacob that would have created a hugely personal connection with those characters and made many people's feelings about Cerberus more conflicted.  Off the top of my head, though, I'm not sure what other character would have made a great replacement Shadow Broker.)

Part of the problem there is that Liara needed a reason to not be on the ME2 squad, so as to ensure that she wouldn't die before the romance arc could be completed, similar to the VS. If she was just focusing on the Reapers and Protheans, there'd be no compelling reason for her not to travel with Shepard; there needed to be a wholly external source of conflict pulling her in.

[Estelindis]

Lots of reasons could be thought up that would do the job just as well, though. She could be working at a promising research site (Mars has cropped up a lot in Cerberus News), or lobbying interest groups, and feel she could make more of a difference there than in Shepard's ME2 squad. Alternatively, the fact that she carries much of the prothean information that Shepard has from the beacon et al could be viewed as meaning that she can't risk herself in the same mission as Shepard. If they were all killed in the suicide mission - assuming Shiala isn't around - there would be no relic of the beacon left to help the galaxy. She could see it as irreponsible to put all their eggs in one basket, certainly early in ME2 before the link between the protheans/collectors and the reapers is established - and, once it is established, she can be placed out of reach for a while, in a similar manner to Ashley and Kaidan (but not an identical one; as a long-suffering VS fan, I wouldn't wish that on Liara fans at all!).

To extend that latter idea a bit - and this is my personal favourite - Liara could see it as her responsibility to develop a new beacon system, so that if the fight against the Reapers ultimately fails then some future race might have another chance to be warned and succeed at beating the Reapers. It would obviously be a very challenging task, but I think she has cause to not see it as totally vain, since Reapers wipe out galactic civilization rather than life (and presumably, from her post-ME1 but pre-ME2 perspective, have a compelling reason for doing so which will persist). As a member of the long-lived asari species and also as an archaeologist, she should be perfectly placed to take a long-term view on such matters. In this scenario, she wouldn't want current galactic civilization to leave behind a negative legacy: that is to say, she would't want "us" to deprive the future of the prothean beacons that we used up without at least replacing them with something similar or even better.

Anyway, in any of these situations, Liara could have the position that she'd make more of a positive difference outside Shepard's squad. When they meet after Shep is brought back from the dead, Shep would have three choices: agree with her and be supportive; disagree but respect her choice; and disagree strongly and condemn her for "not helping."

Personally, I think that would have worked better than the storyline we got.

Incidentally, I never saw the prothean expertise as just an initial character situation for her to outgrow. Perhaps this is because I'm working on a doctorate myself and I know that the level of knowledge one acquires on one's specialist subject during that study period is rarely if ever exceeded by any other study in one's lifetime. Honestly, I found it preposterous that Liara was written as becoming an expert information broker in two years after a lifetime in academia and archaeological digs. I think it was nowhere near enough time. It's not that I don't see her as intelligent and talented - I do - but I don't think it was a credible development for her character as written. People can cry "character development," but all I see is character shoe-horning into a development that doesn't make sense. It never had to be written this way. So many better choices were available.

[Xilizhra]

So what would the DLC be in this case?

[Estelindis]

Because Liara "has" to have DLC no matter what, even if her situation is quite different to that which gave background to LotSB? How is that logical? *confused*

Anyway, one can think of situations similar to LotSB without exerting much effort at all; this isn't even scratching the many possible surfaces of highly different DLC:

• Liara's colleague is kidnapped (rescue Feron angle), possibly but not necessarily by SB agents, maybe on behalf of the Collectors or maybe just because the Broker wants information about the work Liara is carrying out.
• A Spectre tries to use Liara, or manufactures a threat to Liara, in order to lure Shepard in; said Spectre resents that the Council hasn't ordered Shep's arrest for working with Cerberus and decides to take matters into her own hands (Tela Vasir angle), or Spectre could be SB agent, as in the actual DLC.
• Alternatively, if we decided this DLC wouldn't be Liara-centric at all, it could revolve around repurcussions from the SB's earlier attempt to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors.

I'm sure you could think of lots of other possibilities too, though again I wonder why there would "have" to be a Liara DLC. Those of us who thought it was all about continuing the ME1 romance plot were kinda disproven when our expectations of a similar DLC for Ashley or Kaidan were never met.

[MassStorm]

I think that all this discussion is just a waste of energy. Liara will be a squad-mate in ME3 since early in the game (if the leak is correct) so discussing about what would have been appropriate for the story is at this level of the game development(several months before the release) completely useless and it is even more useless since ME3 is the end of Shepard story. Just waste your energies and time guys on something you cannot change. Accept it and live with it. Someone was lucky someone was not.

[Xilizhra]

I'm sure you could think of lots of other possibilities too, though again I wonder why there would "have" to be a Liara DLC. Those of us who thought it was all about continuing the ME1 romance plot were kinda disproven when our expectations of a similar DLC for Ashley or Kaidan were never met.

Probably because the VS' ME1 continuance would have more dramatic/plot potential than Liara's.

[Estelindis]

MassStorm, I am enjoying this discussion, so it's not a waste to me.

Xili, why do you think so? Much as I love the VS, it really seems to me that Liara has more plot relevance when it comes to the overarching threat of the reapers. Of course, I don't know what Bioware might have stored in their bag of tricks for the VS. I'm just going on what we know at this stage (not including leaks, since I've tried to avoid those). Still, one thing we do know is that the VS's work was sufficiently classified that neither TIM nor the SB knew what they were up to.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.
 

I realize that this is a dozen+ pages late, but...

None of that actually argues that Liara's role isn't contrived, only that Liara's general inclusion isn't.

Separate things.

Including an unkillable charater with a squadmate role in both prior games with an undeniable (if unhealthy/unreasonable) tie to Shepard? Not contrived.

Reversing nearly all ME1 characterization towards setting up Liara's to be edgy galactic shadowy mastermind in the role of Shadow Broker in ME2, only to toss nearly the entire role and associated baggage aside to revert her back to pretty-face foot-soldier in ME3 (with money)? 

I'll wait for ME3's handling before certainty, but that's an uphill climb both ways.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm with Dean_The_Young on this one - but I cannot claim lack of bias, I despise the Asari and Liara in particular.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's, what, twice you've agreed with me in the last hour?

Creepy.