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Liara's presence in ME3 is not contrived


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#376
TMA LIVE

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Here's my criticism on the whole importance thing Liara has. As a fan, of course I like it that she has an important role. However, the thing is, Bioware barely does anything with it beyond using it as a plot device, or a setup.

Example, Liara's mother is one of the bad guys in ME1. That alone should setup some conflict and character development.

But instead, all we get is "I guess my mother is bad."

"Time to die Liara"

"Oh, no she's dead!"

"Yep, I'm over it".

And that's it. They pretty much did nothing with it, beyond the bare minimum.

How about Liara being a prothean expert?

"I really like my work!"

"Go there".

And that's it.

How about as a romance?

"You're interesting."

"Do you think I'm hot? You do?"

Romance activated. Sex follows.

And they only added more meaning later in the series.

How about as the person who saved your corpse, and gave you to Cerberus?

"Yep. I saved you're body. I thought you'd hate me. (Shepard does or doesn't). Now let's take out the Shadow Broker".

And that's it.

How about as an information broker?

"It's crazy and busy. Here's some info. Do some stuff for me. Help me kill someone for pointless data. Thanks. I'm now the Shadow Broker. Let's not talk about my past actions ever again."

So if in ME3, Liara being the Shadow Broker means nothing, I'd be pissed. Because they've literally created a track recorded of setting her up for something important, and then doing nothing with it beyond the bare minimum.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .


#377
Ieldra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.
 

I realize that this is a dozen+ pages late, but...

None of that actually argues that Liara's role isn't contrived, only that Liara's general inclusion isn't.

Separate things.

Including an unkillable charater with a squadmate role in both prior games with an undeniable (if unhealthy/unreasonable) tie to Shepard? Not contrived.

Reversing nearly all ME1 characterization towards setting up Liara's to be edgy galactic shadowy mastermind in the role of Shadow Broker in ME2, only to toss nearly the entire role and associated baggage aside to revert her back to pretty-face foot-soldier in ME3 (with money)? 

I'll wait for ME3's handling before certainty, but that's an uphill climb both ways.

You hit the nail on the head.

#378
Dean_the_Young

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Ieldra's agreeing with me as well? That's...

Not exceptional. Just taking a joke out too far.


The shame of it is, I think managing/running the Shadow Broker network would have been a good role for Miranda. Whether by recasting the DLC into a choice (turn it over to Liara or Miranda/Cerberus), or simply post-story development. Miranda could have brought the organizational expertise to help justify Liara's light-hands approach.

If Miranda survives, she's Liara's de-facto second, keeping things running (and keeping an eye out for her sis) while Liara plays squad mate... a role that killable-Miranda couldn't fill easily. If Miranda's dead, then Liara's Shepard-first focus sees the Broker network fall apart and be less useful.


(Feel free to cheer Broker!Miranda, Ieldra. )

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:29 .


#379
Ieldra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Ieldra's agreeing with me as well? That's...

Not exceptional. Just taking a joke out too far.

The shame of it is, I think managing/running the Shadow Broker network would have been a good role for Miranda. Whether by recasting the DLC into a choice (turn it over to Liara or Miranda/Cerberus), or simply post-story development. Miranda could have brought the organizational expertise to help justify Liara's light-hands approach.

If Miranda survives, she's Liara's de-facto second, keeping things running (and keeping an eye out for her sis) while Liara plays squad mate... a role that killable-Miranda couldn't fill easily. If Miranda's dead, then Liara's Shepard-first focus sees the Broker network fall apart and be less useful.

(Feel free to cheer Broker!Miranda, Ieldra. )

:D:D *cheers*

#380
Youknow

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ieldra's agreeing with me as well? That's...

Not exceptional. Just taking a joke out too far.


The shame of it is, I think managing/running the Shadow Broker network would have been a good role for Miranda. Whether by recasting the DLC into a choice (turn it over to Liara or Miranda/Cerberus), or simply post-story development. Miranda could have brought the organizational expertise to help justify Liara's light-hands approach.

If Miranda survives, she's Liara's de-facto second, keeping things running (and keeping an eye out for her sis) while Liara plays squad mate... a role that killable-Miranda couldn't fill easily. If Miranda's dead, then Liara's Shepard-first focus sees the Broker network fall apart and be less useful.


(Feel free to cheer Broker!Miranda, Ieldra. )


This is a pretty good idea for Miranda actually. I can't say I disagree with that. 

#381
Olive Oomph

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Estelindis wrote...

Lots of reasons could be thought up that would do the job just as well, though. She could be working at a promising research site (Mars has cropped up a lot in Cerberus News), or lobbying interest groups, and feel she could make more of a difference there than in Shepard's ME2 squad. Alternatively, the fact that she carries much of the prothean information that Shepard has from the beacon et al could be viewed as meaning that she can't risk herself in the same mission as Shepard. If they were all killed in the suicide mission - assuming Shiala isn't around - there would be no relic of the beacon left to help the galaxy. She could see it as irreponsible to put all their eggs in one basket, certainly early in ME2 before the link between the protheans/collectors and the reapers is established - and, once it is established, she can be placed out of reach for a while, in a similar manner to Ashley and Kaidan (but not an identical one; as a long-suffering VS fan, I wouldn't wish that on Liara fans at all!).

To extend that latter idea a bit - and this is my personal favourite - Liara could see it as her responsibility to develop a new beacon system, so that if the fight against the Reapers ultimately fails then some future race might have another chance to be warned and succeed at beating the Reapers. It would obviously be a very challenging task, but I think she has cause to not see it as totally vain, since Reapers wipe out galactic civilization rather than life (and presumably, from her post-ME1 but pre-ME2 perspective, have a compelling reason for doing so which will persist). As a member of the long-lived asari species and also as an archaeologist, she should be perfectly placed to take a long-term view on such matters. In this scenario, she wouldn't want current galactic civilization to leave behind a negative legacy: that is to say, she would't want "us" to deprive the future of the prothean beacons that we used up without at least replacing them with something similar or even better.

Anyway, in any of these situations, Liara could have the position that she'd make more of a positive difference outside Shepard's squad. When they meet after Shep is brought back from the dead, Shep would have three choices: agree with her and be supportive; disagree but respect her choice; and disagree strongly and condemn her for "not helping."

Personally, I think that would have worked better than the storyline we got.

Incidentally, I never saw the prothean expertise as just an initial character situation for her to outgrow. Perhaps this is because I'm working on a doctorate myself and I know that the level of knowledge one acquires on one's specialist subject during that study period is rarely if ever exceeded by any other study in one's lifetime. Honestly, I found it preposterous that Liara was written as becoming an expert information broker in two years after a lifetime in academia and archaeological digs. I think it was nowhere near enough time. It's not that I don't see her as intelligent and talented - I do - but I don't think it was a credible development for her character as written. People can cry "character development," but all I see is character shoe-horning into a development that doesn't make sense. It never had to be written this way. So many better choices were available.


Liara's change in profession makes a lot of sense to me:

It indicates the significant impact Shephard's death had on her life.
Academic research requires a lot of focus on the researcher's part. Liara's mind is more occupied with finding
Feron and taking revenge on the Shadow Broker, it becomes the main focus of her life.
Research needs funding, if your mind's not fully in it, you will get into trouble sooner or later.

She becomes an Information Broker on Illium (with probably a rather limited radius of operation, I assume) to pay the bills. before she becomes the galaxy wide operating Shadow Broker. The change is gradual and not aprubt and sudden.
Archaeology is basically the gathering and interpretation of specialized knowledge, to learn how to handle information is a basic skill for anyone working an academic field, so it's not really a stretch to assume, that she can successfully work as an information broker after about two years.

Liara is still young and her motivations have a lot to do with her emotions. Archeological digs made it possible for her to lead a life away from society, an emotional need of hers after growing up as a matriach's daughter.
This changes after joining the Shepard's team, I think she learns to enjoy the company of others again, her life already takes a different turn during the events of Mass Effect 1.

After the death of the commander, retrieving her body, becomes the main focus of Liara's life, after that it's finding Feron and the SB.
Liara chooses what she does, she doesn't let her past dictate the future development of her life.
In my opinion, going back to her life as an archeologist, is what wouldn't make sense after everything that has happened, not at that point in time.

Again, Liara is driven by her emotional needs more than the needs of the galactic civilization and she is not an
engineer. Her building new beacons would be much more of a stretch than her becoming an information broker.
Besides, Asari lives, private or professional, are different from our own, most notably in length. Liara is already
an exception to their rule, becoming an expert in a specialized field at such a young age. She is not normal, even by Asari standards.

As I said, her actions always have been emotionally motivated and she tends to obsess about the things she does. That is what defines her as a person. Not being an archeologist or prothean expert, which is what makes her relevant to the plot of Mass Effect 1. That is in itself a result of those underlying character traits as much as
is becoming the Shadow Broker in the wake of Shepard's death.

Of course you could write the whole story differently, but some choices are the writers' to make.
You give people small choices and suddenly they want to decide everything!
And what makes one choice better than another is purely subjective.
My own view on this is of course hopelessly biased as well and I am rather happy that Liara has such a prominent role over the course of the whole trilogy and I can see why others are disappointed that Bioware doesn't tie all
squadmates or even more so at least the love interests, into the plot more equally, but pre-LotSB I shared that kind of disappointment and it didn't lead me to the conclusion that their treatment of the story and characters was somehow wrong. Same goes for Ashley, who I love dearly as well, and Horizon (though the dialogue there is rather badly written, even by my generous standards) was never a real problem for me.

An analysis should be more about what something is and not what it should be according to your wishes, personally I don't see the point in arguing alternatives to someone else's story, but if that's what floats your boat, than go ahead, but don't claim your ideas are neccessarily better by any objective standard, just because one character gets more attention than another you might favor. Writing is not a democracy.

I am trying to avoid most spoilers, but I have given my opinion about LIara's role in Mass Effect 3 as far as I know about it a couple of pages earlier.

Modifié par Olive Oomph, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:42 .


#382
Dean_the_Young

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Youknow wrote...

This is a pretty good idea for Miranda actually. I can't say I disagree with that. 

Why so reluctant? Why would you want to? Do you hate me that much?


(Kidding, kidding?)

#383
jtav

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Dean, can I steal that for my Miranda/Liara stories?

#384
Youknow

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Youknow wrote...

This is a pretty good idea for Miranda actually. I can't say I disagree with that. 

Why so reluctant? Why would you want to? Do you hate me that much?


(Kidding, kidding?)


Heh. No. I'm actually afraid to agree with people on here. They might think that you have some crazy alliance or something with people. :D

#385
Dean_the_Young

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Ieldra2 wrote...

:D:D *cheers*

Figured you'd like that.

I got to be frank. I don't share your love for Miranda, and it doesn't change my own position towards my dislike of part of the relationship setup (Shepard being the only man good enough for her), but I've always felt a smidgen of approval at your willingness and ability to argue the more nuanced parts of her character.

Back-handed compliments aside, keep it up.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .


#386
Dean_the_Young

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jtav wrote...

Dean, can I steal that for my Miranda/Liara stories?

If you steal it, wouldn't it already be beyond my control? Not like I could stop you.

So, uh, sure I guess.

#387
HK-90210

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TL;DR fans may want to skip to the summary at the bottom.
As a writer, one has to make a decision about how they want to use their characters. Some writers use the plot to advance the characters, some use the characters to advance the plot. At the end of ME1, the writers had to make decisions about what you do with the squadmates they had given the player. Of those squadmates, the only two you had to recruit, and couldn't die, were Liara and Tali. So they were the only characters that every single ME player had on their squad. Wrex and the VSs were killable, while Garrus was an optional recruit. The writers had to use them all to keep the story together and maintain structure.

So what did they do with Liara? The same thing they did with her in ME1. They made her a plot device(and I don't mean that in a negative way). Liara was used to advance the plot, just as she was in the first game. That is what she is. Liara's characterization has always taken a sidesaddle to her usefulness to the plot. This does not diminish her as a character. But it is fact. Through her, the story of the ME Trilogy has gotten the following:
-Sorting through Shepard's visions and using her Prothean expertise to determine Ilos as the location of the Conduit. This was her main service to the plot in ME1.
-Shepard's savior after his/her death, and the method that brought his/her body to Cerberus and the Lazarus project. This was her main service in ME2.
-In ME3, Liara is an independent galactic mover and shaker. As Shadow Broker, Liara is not directly connected to any galactic civilization or organization, and the only loyalty between Shepard and Liara is that of friendship(Or love, as the case may be). She is an unbiased and effective way of providing Shepard with a wealth of information that can be used in ME3 to supply Shepard(and the player) with anything the writers want to provide, be it intel from sources that wouldn't supply info willingly, messages from people Shepard wouldn't know directly, or whatever else the writers have to provide for the story to progress.

Much like James Vega, Liara is an excellent squadmate in ME3 for incoming players, as she's a damn useful plot device. That's what she has always been. Again, this does not diminish her as a character. Without Liara, Mass Effect's story would not be able to progress with any semblance of order. Debating Mass Effect's plot altogether is a debate for another thread, but the fact is that the only individual character more important to the ME story than Liara is Shepard his/herself. Based on this, why wouldn't the writers make Liara a squadmate?

TL;DR: Liara is a useful character to the ME plot, and has always been so. Making her a squadmate is the best decision as far as her character arc, as she has always been tied to the general plot of the series as a whole. So by dictionary terms, yes, her presence in ME3 is contrived. This is not a bad thing, nor does it diminish her as a character. But it is true, IMO.

#388
Ieldra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

:D:D *cheers*

Figured you'd like that.

Actually, so far I hadn't liked liked the idea of Miranda being second to Liara (or anyone), but if she's the one bringing the operational expertise.....

I got to be frank. I don't share your love for Miranda, and it doesn't change my own position towards my dislike of part of the relationship setup (Shepard being the only man good enough for her), but I've always felt a smidgen of approval at your willingness and ability to argue the more nuanced parts of her character.

Back-handed compliments aside, keep it up.

LOL, thanks. At this point, though, it's pretty much all said, and we'll see how things go in ME3. And actually, I see the relationship from the other side: Miranda's the only one playing on the same level as Shepard, in defiance of all attempts to replace the character of our reclusive archaeologist in order to make her into that person.

Anyway, OT here. Back to Liara's contrived character-changes. It's almost as if ME2 Liara was possessed by someone else.

#389
Xilizhra

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Estelindis wrote...

MassStorm, I am enjoying this discussion, so it's not a waste to me.

Xili, why do you think so? Much as I love the VS, it really seems to me that Liara has more plot relevance when it comes to the overarching threat of the reapers. Of course, I don't know what Bioware might have stored in their bag of tricks for the VS. I'm just going on what we know at this stage (not including leaks, since I've tried to avoid those). Still, one thing we do know is that the VS's work was sufficiently classified that neither TIM nor the SB knew what they were up to.

I seriously doubt that. The Shadow Broker knows everything, just about, and the lack of dossier information means nothing. As for TIM, I'm fairly sure he had an idea of what was going on.

#390
Ryzaki

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ieldra's agreeing with me as well? That's...

Not exceptional. Just taking a joke out too far.


The shame of it is, I think managing/running the Shadow Broker network would have been a good role for Miranda. Whether by recasting the DLC into a choice (turn it over to Liara or Miranda/Cerberus), or simply post-story development. Miranda could have brought the organizational expertise to help justify Liara's light-hands approach.

If Miranda survives, she's Liara's de-facto second, keeping things running (and keeping an eye out for her sis) while Liara plays squad mate... a role that killable-Miranda couldn't fill easily. If Miranda's dead, then Liara's Shepard-first focus sees the Broker network fall apart and be less useful.


(Feel free to cheer Broker!Miranda, Ieldra. )


This...would've worked really well.

#391
Dean_the_Young

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Yes... more poor saps brought in by my narrative-building...

#392
Xilizhra

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Miranda would be a putrid Shadow Broker. I have no trust in her ability to stay neutral on anything, not to mention all the cross-organization intelligence risks Cerberus would pose. Given Cerberus' revelation of its true colors in ME3, a base-kept Shepard playthrough with Miranda as the Shadow Broker could lead to Cerberus taking over the entire network and dooming the galaxy.

#393
Ieldra

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I just had this chat about this topic (quoted with her permission):

Ieldra: BTW, big debate about Liara and the contrivedness of her character "development" on BSN.
Elyvern: :/
Elyvern: but we already know that don't we?
Ieldra: Some don't want to admit it.
Elyvern: blind fools
Ieldra: Can I quote you on that?
Elyvern: sure
Elyvern: an ideal story is always self contained, and the story elements -- the characters -- must never make you feel like the 'hand of god' aka the author is forcefully manipulating things to the point where you go WTF
Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.


As a point of constructive criticism: As Estelindis pointed out, things would have gone quite a bit better had Liara continued to work on the Prothean/Reaper connection, developing the knowledge she already was in the process of acquiring, and then coming back to SHepard in ME3 to help out with a piece of critical knowledge. And because she cannot die, that piece could have been 100% critical. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:11 .


#394
Xilizhra

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Ieldra: Some don't want to admit it.

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing.

Elyvern: an ideal story is always self contained, and the story elements -- the characters -- must never make you feel like the 'hand of god' aka the author is forcefully manipulating things to the point where you go WTF
Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.

How fortunate that I felt nothing of the sort from ME2, at least not there.

#395
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Given Cerberus' revelation of its true colors in ME3

Cerberus was indoctrinated the entire time?!

:o


No, seriously, we've been over this Xil. Cerberus was not always in the Reaper's pockets.

#396
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Given Cerberus' revelation of its true colors in ME3

Cerberus was indoctrinated the entire time?!

:o


No, seriously, we've been over this Xil. Cerberus was not always in the Reaper's pockets.

I meant that they have no sense of loyalty when a former asset becomes a liability.

#397
Ieldra

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Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra: Some don't want to admit it.

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing.

Elyvern: an ideal story is always self contained, and the story elements -- the characters -- must never make you feel like the 'hand of god' aka the author is forcefully manipulating things to the point where you go WTF
Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.

How fortunate that I felt nothing of the sort from ME2, at least not there.

You didn't because your love of Liara clouds your perception. Love does that, you know....

#398
Xilizhra

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra: Some don't want to admit it.

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing.

Elyvern: an ideal story is always self contained, and the story elements -- the characters -- must never make you feel like the 'hand of god' aka the author is forcefully manipulating things to the point where you go WTF
Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.

How fortunate that I felt nothing of the sort from ME2, at least not there.

You didn't because your love of Liara clouds your perception. Love does that, you know....

So does resentment.

#399
Ieldra

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Well, if Liara's character "development" wasn't contrived, I might still resent her, but I wouldn't have good arguments and probably would shut up sooner or later. You, however, never shut up, even if you have no arguments left.

#400
NeroSparda

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra: Some don't want to admit it.

Subjectivity is a wonderful thing.

Elyvern: an ideal story is always self contained, and the story elements -- the characters -- must never make you feel like the 'hand of god' aka the author is forcefully manipulating things to the point where you go WTF
Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.

How fortunate that I felt nothing of the sort from ME2, at least not there.

You didn't because your love of Liara clouds your perception. Love does that, you know....


... There wouldn't be much for Liara to get while investigating Reapers/Protheans as the Reapers tend to be very thorough in wiping every evidence. Even if there were still evidence, only Shepard would be able to understand the Prothean language. <_<