440 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

NVM 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, if Liara's character "development" wasn't contrived, I might still resent her, but I wouldn't have good arguments and probably would shut up sooner or later. You, however, never shut up, even if you have no arguments left.

Had I been writing ME2, I don't know if I would have done this. It would have been wholly unnecessary, however, if my idea of having the Shadow Broker resurrect Shepard had been made true, and I probably would have had a more Protheanish role for Liara in ME2. I agree that LotSB is highly disconnected from her roots and not an optimal way to claim the Shadow Broker's resources; however, I see ME3 as undoing a lot of the disconnection issues and bringing the ME1 and 2 portrayals closer together. That's why I'm fully in favor of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I meant that they have no sense of loyalty when a former asset becomes a liability.

That's been the position of just about every group in the galaxy, always. The Alliance, the Council, the Quarians, the Geth, the Turians, the Salarians, the Asari, the Justicars.

Cerberus never claimed it was some eternally loyal group, and disputed it in ME2.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I meant that they have no sense of loyalty when a former asset becomes a liability.

That's been the position of just about every group in the galaxy, always. The Alliance, the Council, the Quarians, the Geth, the Turians, the Salarians, the Asari, the Justicars.

Cerberus never claimed it was some eternally loyal group, and disputed it in ME2.

Don't tell that to Seboist/laecraft/et al.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I meant that they have no sense of loyalty when a former asset becomes a liability.

That's been the position of just about every group in the galaxy, always. The Alliance, the Council, the Quarians, the Geth, the Turians, the Salarians, the Asari, the Justicars.

Cerberus never claimed it was some eternally loyal group, and disputed it in ME2.

Don't tell that to Seboist/laecraft/et al.

Uh, they already know. And they accept Cerberus's willingness to turn on old allies.

Their beef is more towards that Cerberus's 'betrayal' doesn't have clear reason for it in this context.

But this isn't about them, this is about your views, condemning Cerberus for... being a lot like everyone else.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I just had this chat about this topic (quoted with her permission):

Elyvern: things that make readers go "that's disingenious or contrived" or even the need to make footnotes to understand the story--are those WTF moments that a good story strives never to have because nothing else breaks immersion as devastatingly as that.

I'm going disagree with this slightly because this is not universally true.  I would first argue that different cultures expect different things from the readers and it is in the spirit of this diversity that I don't like to hold such maxims.  I often think of a conversation held between an ESL writing instructor and a Japanese writing student.  In Japan, the burden of understanding the work essentially falls upon the reader.  It is the integrity of the reader and their ability intimate what the text attempts to do that make the piece of literature work for them.  In some Western cultures, the above is true but not all.  It is a subjective understanding what makes good writing good, one that is formed by culture but that maxim is not a universal one.

That being said, given that Bioware is coming from a Western point of view, I'm also going to disagree in that it entirely possible to possess and validate divergent readings of a text.  Convential reader-response literary theory holds that in any given class, you'll have seven different interpretations of meaning in a text and of course those same seven different interpretations will hold across multiple classes among different people.  What works for you may not work others and vice versa.  This is the beauty of literature (and I do consider games a form of literature particular in narrative heavy RPG's like the ones Bioware makes).   The mutability of words, their meaning and their ability to leave different impressions upon those who choose to interact with them. 

Wolfgang Iser and I.A. Richards, two literary theorists  talk about the notion of readers and what they bring to the text and how they relate to a particular text.  You always carry culture biases and general disposition into what you read. It is too much a part of you not to be and that is why there is also the concept of the "transactional theory" in literature.  In short, it's a contract between writer and reader with a specific context.  If you take that idea and combine it with the notion that readers and writiers interact within the context of their own inherent boundaries, it seems to belie that idea that not all things will work for all people thus one understanding of a work is not universal.

In short, I would agree with the above sentiment entirely if not for the subjectivity of a human experience and if not for the fact that there are good many people who disagree with the idea that Liara is contrived character.

I'm not saying that all things are equal and that there aren't examples of good and bad writing, but are opinions do have biases and they are not often grounded in the objective viewpoint. 

I do agree Dean_the_Young on one matter,  I think Miranda would be an excellent Shadowbroker.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Estelindis wrote...
Still, one thing we do know is that the VS's work was sufficiently classified that neither TIM nor the SB knew what they were up to.

I seriously doubt that. The Shadow Broker knows everything, just about, and the lack of dossier information means nothing. As for TIM, I'm fairly sure he had an idea of what was going on.

TIM noted that the VS's file was surprisingly well-classified and it seemed like the only reason he even knew the VS would be on Horizon is that he intentionally manipulated the situation.  Of course, maybe he knew much more but just lied to Shepard about it.  But maybe we've been lied to about lots of things via the writing; until some evidence comes up to support that conclusion, we have no way of knowing.  As for the SB, I don't see why the lack of dossier information necessarily means nothing.  I rather hope it wasn't just a woeful oversight on Bioware's part and that the SB was deliberately presented as not having info on Ashley or Kaidan.  If it was just an oversight, though, so be it.  For the time being, I think we have no conclusive evidence on this front; we have a lack of information on the lack of information.  

CastonFularus wrote...
 At the end of ME1, the writers had to make decisions about what you do with the squadmates they had given the player. Of those squadmates, the only two you had to recruit, and couldn't die, were Liara and Tali. So they were the only characters that every single ME player had on their squad. Wrex and the VSs were killable, while Garrus was an optional recruit. The writers had to use them all to keep the story together and maintain structure.

As has already been argued, it's one thing to dispute the necessity of having characters function to secure certain plot points and another thing to dispute the quality of writing when it comes to the way that plot is implemented at various points.  I am doing the latter rather than the former.  Ignoring for the moment the fact that Shepard's death wasn't necessarily a great plot move in the first place, I think that some the various roles Liara has filled so far could be more credibly filled by other characters.  

Now, given that only she and Tali are guaranteed to be alive and recruited by the end of ME1, this may seem like a ridiculous argument, but this is only the case if one doesn't examine the underlying assumption that these roles have to be filled by a member of Shepard's squad who has already been recruited.  This was never so.  Why not have some roles filled by characters who are going to be part of Shepard's squad in ME2?  Leaving aside for now my existing suggestion of Miranda and Jacob, who are compulsory squaddies in ME2 and have some (admittedly scant) pre-ME2-release material out there via Galaxy, I have seen in a few places that Legion was originally intended to find Shepard's body and the player was supposed to be able to play it at this stage of the game, but that ended up being cut.  Clearly, then, Liara is not the only character Bioware has ever considered suitable for the role.  Furthermore, it's not as if the role had to be confined to squadmates.  There are some significant characters that never fight at Shepard's side in ME1 or ME2 but who would still work in that role.  For instance, Bioware wasn't so attached to Anderson's player-chosen role that they left him there; we see him leaving his job behind and kicking ass in Retribution.  (Not that I'm necessarily a fan of this development; I'm just pointing out a possibility, since I think that a lot of bad writing comes from a lack of imagining all the potential things one can write.)

Olive Oomph wrote...
An analysis should be more about what something is and not what it should be according to your wishes

According to your wishes, that's what an analysis should be.    Honestly, I think it's more constructive to say what I would have done differently rather than just saying "x sucks" or "y is awesome."  Why is something great?  If something is viewed as lacking, what would the critic suggest should be done differently?  I think the way you suggest debate should happen is needlessly truncated.

Anyway, I don't object to Liara getting more attention - a character can get as much or as little attention as the writers please, as long as the result is satisfying and coherent.  It is about whether Liara's writing across the trilogy has been as satisfying and coherent as we would wish, or if there might have been better ways of writing.  You have made a series of arguments about why you think the developments are fine; I have made some arguments about why I think they could have been better.  I'm not really disagreeing with most of the points you made, since I think they were mostly good; I just think that some of the roles you say made so much sense for Liara would have made much more sense for other characters with other roles being better for Liara.  

Regarding your objection to my prothean proposition, that Liara isn't an engineer, the project I envision would clearly not be a one-person operation but would still require a huge level of prothean expertise.

As for Liara being driven by her emotional needs, I agree in some ways (the fact that she was written as so cold after Benezia's death doesn't make a lot of sense in this respect), but I think that this aspect of her personality could have manifested itself just as well, or better, via a prothean storyline.  It was via the mind-link that Liara first became connected to Shepard.  Initially, it seemed that she was interested in Shepard because of the prothean knowledge imprinted in Shep's mind, but as time went on she found herself becoming deeply attracted to Shepard at other levels.  Wouldn't it, then, be a fascinating inversion if, after Shepard's death, Liara turned to prothean work partially because of how much it reminded her of Shepard, to the point where it was the only way she had of feeling close to Shepard after the Normandy attack?  It would be her way of carrying on Shepard's legacy.  Of course, this is in a scenario where Cerberus never contacted her to help assist in recovering Shepard's body.  Then, when Shepard returned two years later, Liara would be torn between her loyalty towards the idea/memory of Shepard that fueled her work and the reality of a living person standing in front of her.  

Modifié par Estelindis, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[feliciano2040]

Estelindis wrote...

Wouldn't it, then, be a fascinating inversion if, after Shepard's death, Liara turned to prothean work partially because of how much it reminded her of Shepard, to the point where it was the only way she had of feeling close to Shepard after the Normandy attack?  It would be her way of carrying on Shepard's legacy.  Of course, this is in a scenario where Cerberus never contacted her to help assist in recovering Shepard's body.

This. So much this.

[Dariustwinblade]

A lot of questions could have been answered if I could just post spoiler. But since I can't I'll give you the gist.

*minor spoiler*


Liara being as a me3 does not diminish he role as the Shadowbroker. She can work fine inside the Normandy. She has a helper working for her. And has been actively using BOTH her PROTHEAN KNOWLEDGE and SHADOW BROKER assets to help in your war.


Infact after Shepard she is doing the most in the war against the reaper. And uses both her SB powers and prothean knowledge to help Shep AND THE CREW, too.

*MORE SPOILER*

She uses her assets and money and connections to borker Hackett and repair the fleet.

The Alliance uses her network to relay info.

Yes! An ALIEN is doing more for the human Alliance than any human alive(after shep ofcorse)

When Shepard blows up the alpha relay and gives the galaxy precious months. What does the galaxy and humans do put shepard up for trial. While your setup as a Batarian appeasing scapegoat.

Liara knowing about the precious months you sacrificed goes to do her own work. Use every SB connection and Hackett to get clearence to the prothean Mars research base. Where she finds out the key to beating the reapers.


She does alot more using her resource.

*END SPOILER*




So yes Liara being on the normandy the galaxy's strongest,fastest and silent ship. Does not prevent her from working. Her role as SB is not sidelined


Her going in the front line. Is mostly your choice. She can stay back if you want to.

Neither Miranda and Mordin are frontline soldier you take them anyway. Liara basically replaces Miri a your XO and Mordin as a research Doc.

Oh! Yes she is contrived.

[Dariustwinblade]

A lot of questions could have been answered if I could just post spoiler. But since I can't I'll give you the gist.

*minor spoiler*


Liara being as a me3 does not diminish he role as the Shadowbroker. She can work fine inside the Normandy. She has a helper working for her. And has been actively using BOTH her PROTHEAN KNOWLEDGE and SHADOW BROKER assets to help in your war.


Infact after Shepard she is doing the most in the war against the reaper. And uses both her SB powers and prothean knowledge to help Shep AND THE CREW, too.

*MORE SPOILER*

She uses her assets and money and connections to borker Hackett and repair the fleet.

The Alliance uses her network to relay info.

Yes! An ALIEN is doing more for the human Alliance than any human alive(after shep ofcorse)

When Shepard blows up the alpha relay and gives the galaxy precious months. What does the galaxy and humans do put shepard up for trial. While your setup as a Batarian appeasing scapegoat.

Liara knowing about the precious months you sacrificed goes to do her own work. Use every SB connection and Hackett to get clearence to the prothean Mars research base. Where she finds out the key to beating the reapers.


She does alot more using her resource.

*END SPOILER*




So yes Liara being on the normandy the galaxy's strongest,fastest and silent ship. Does not prevent her from working. Her role as SB is not sidelined


Her going in the front line. Is mostly your choice. She can stay back if you want to.

Neither Miranda and Mordin are frontline soldier you take them anyway. Liara basically replaces Miri a your XO and Mordin as a research Doc.

Oh! Yes she is contrived.

[Estelindis]

Dariustwinblade, you may well have amazing arguments that close the case completely, but I'm not reading spoilers. Sorry. At least you have the pleasure of knowing how right you are if those spoilers are correct.

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, if Liara's character "development" wasn't contrived, I might still resent her, but I wouldn't have good arguments and probably would shut up sooner or later. You, however, never shut up, even if you have no arguments left.

Had I been writing ME2, I don't know if I would have done this. It would have been wholly unnecessary, however, if my idea of having the Shadow Broker resurrect Shepard had been made true, and I probably would have had a more Protheanish role for Liara in ME2. I agree that LotSB is highly disconnected from her roots and not an optimal way to claim the Shadow Broker's resources; however, I see ME3 as undoing a lot of the disconnection issues and bringing the ME1 and 2 portrayals closer together. That's why I'm fully in favor of it.

"Is our unlovable, lunkhead les, with ovaries of steel and a heart of gold admitting defeat? Stay tuned and find out in the next episode of..." 

BSN WARZ!!!

[feliciano2040]

Estelindis wrote...

Dariustwinblade, you may well have amazing arguments that close the case completely, but I'm not reading spoilers. Sorry. At least you have the pleasure of knowing how right you are if those spoilers are correct.

Not really story-breaking spoilers if I may say.

But Dariustwinblade doesn't make any defence for how Liara got to be an information broker in the first place.

[Barquiel]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Dariustwinblade, you may well have amazing arguments that close the case completely, but I'm not reading spoilers. Sorry. At least you have the pleasure of knowing how right you are if those spoilers are correct.

Not really story-breaking spoilers if I may say.

But Dariustwinblade doesn't make any defence for how Liara got to be an information broker in the first place.

Well, I guess she hired some operatives (probably a common job on Illium)...and started to buy info from other brokers, then sell it again to even another one (or some client that wants it).

[Dean_the_Young]

Or Cerberus emailed her, and not you.

Wouldn't that be a treat.

[feliciano2040]

Barquiel wrote...

Well, I guess she hired some operatives (probably a common job on Illium)...and started to buy info from other brokers, then sell it again to even another one (or some client that wants it).

We can rationalize it a lot, doesn't mean it would be true.

Though it makes me think that, perhaps, conversations with Liara in ME 3 would explain how she got from point A to point B.

[naledgeborn]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Though it makes me think that, perhaps, conversations with Liara in ME 3 would explain how she got from point A to point B.

A to B is generous. A to Z is a more accurate analogy.

[Sundance31us]

Contrived? Liara rescues Shepard's corpse from the Collectors and gives it to Cerberus for rebuilding; if not for her Shepard's arc would be over the minute his body (what's left of it) slams into Alchera.

[Estelindis]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Not really story-breaking spoilers if I may say.

I still don't want to be spoiled, but thanks all the same.

[jlb524]

feliciano2040 wrote...

We can rationalize it a lot, doesn't mean it would be true.

You can say that about loads of things.  Unfortunately, these characters have gaps in their stories that will probably go forever unfilled.

[feliciano2040]

Estelindis wrote...

I still don't want to be spoiled, but thanks all the same.

You're welcome.

I must say though, randomly, that I've never understood why some people jumped at the chance to read the leak.

Seriously guys ? You don't think that could've ruined THE ENTIRE EXPERIENCE  ?!!

jlb524 wrote...

You can say that about loads of things.  Unfortunately, these characters have gaps in their stories that will probably go forever unfilled.

So we shouldn't say anything about it ?

Dang, all this time, I had it all wrong about forums  !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Dariustwinblade, you may well have amazing arguments that close the case completely, but I'm not reading spoilers. Sorry. At least you have the pleasure of knowing how right you are if those spoilers are correct.

Not really story-breaking spoilers if I may say.

But Dariustwinblade doesn't make any defence for how Liara got to be an information broker in the first place.

I would say one of Liara's major character flaws is her ability to become consumed and obsessed.  I think it partially is what made her such a good student and an excellent anthropologist.  But there is limit to that, and boundaries to that in that when your desire to achieve and hold on to something does not give you reason to consider the nature and the vehemence of your obsession.  I always kind of hoped that the trauma of dying and then being "reborn" would come back to reflect negatively on both her and Shepard which is why I respect Ryzaki's Shepard who is justifiably not happy with her decision to hand over his body to Cerberus.  It's very human.

But that's besides the point.  The scene in the LotSB that was telling to me was when Shepard examine's Liara's flat and discovers a few things.  First, she never got over her attachment to Shepard, she's still deeply tied to the Protheans as a species, and most importanly, that framed photo of the Normandy implies that she considers that ship and it crew to be her family and home.  This implies that her connection to Shepard and Normandy gives her the missing familial bond she lost a long time ago, one that is intensified due to the way the experience these sorts of relationships.  This is also why I don't think it would be so easy to go back to Prothean digsites for she's experienced a new sort of living, one that can't compare to old despite her love for them

Given that Liara is prone to deep and certainly overwhelming attachment to things, her revenge would become something unnatural.  The Shadowbroker was going to give Shepard over to the Collector's in a way that seems sacrilegious and of course, her attachment to Feron (which is a given because she develops a strong emotional bonds rather quickly due to the sometimes nebulous and sometimes contentious relationship she had with her mother).  I see that Liara devoting everything she had to becoming an information brokers as a means to getting to the Shadowbroker, her latest obsession.

[Barquiel]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Well, I guess she hired some operatives (probably a common job on Illium)...and started to buy info from other brokers, then sell it again to even another one (or some client that wants it).

We can rationalize it a lot, doesn't mean it would be true.

Though it makes me think that, perhaps, conversations with Liara in ME 3 would explain how she got from point A to point B.

I don't think there is some great twist.

She is the daughter of one of the most powerful and influental matriarchs in asari space (even the councilor recognized Benezia's voice) -> I guess money was not a problem and she probably knows some of Benezia's friends, acquaintances and associates as well.

Information Brokering is a legit business on Illium -> it was a good place to start.

Modifié par Barquiel, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[Dariustwinblade]

@feliciano2040

The most important assets you need when starting a business are intelligance and more importantly MONEY. And Laira was filthy rich being the only heir to the most powerful matriarch.

Also Feron before he got captured got his contacts list and gave em to Liara.(i guess)

We already know Liara is a genius, and when she sets he mind to something she gets it done. She has capital(large unknown sum). Networks and connections can be bought and She already has Ferons contacts.

Is it really stretching imagination that Liara cant make a good Info broker.

[feliciano2040]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

The most important assets you need when starting a business are intelligance and more importantly MONEY. And Laira was filthy rich being the only heir to the most powerful matriarch.

And you would say that from what ? A tour of duty with the CIA  ?

And where exactly was it said that Matriarchs are filthy rich ? "respected and esteemed figures" doesn't mean showering in money.

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Also Feron before he got captured got his contacts list and gave em to Liara.(i guess)

No, that never happened.

Dariustwinblade wrote...

We already know Liara is a genius.

Really ? Can you point me specifically to where that is said ?

Modifié par feliciano2040, 07 décembre 2011 - 10:06 .