Good post!
Dave of Canada wrote...
The Archdemon was this unquestionable big bad, something which needed to be stopped without reservation. Nobody sat down and thought to themselves that the Archdemon was this being of righteousness or that it's perspective was morally gray, we needed to destroy it.
Thats true, but I think even then, if you're looking at the Archdemon through the Dark Ritual proposition its not necessarily black and white. Yes, you have to physically kill the Archdemon to stop the Blight, but thats the twist with Morrigan and the OGB, in that you could potentially view her Ritual as possibly preserving the soul of the Old God/Archdemon. Which could be a bad thing or a good thing depending on your PC.
Dave of Canada wrote...
People who found her sympathetic couldn't really stand on her side as it's revealed she's under the influence of magic. Same thing with demonic possession, Dragon Age's version of indoctrination, capable of making anybody into a villain.
By no means, this doesn't mean to neglect demonic possession or magical influences. They simply need to be part of the plot, not the crucial point of it.
I agree with you there (thats got to be a first:wizard:). Characters are far more interesting when their actions can be viewed as potentially "evil" when they are in full control of their faculties and they know exactly what they're doing. Where the antagonist truly believes that what they are doing is the "right" thing, even if its maybe employing questionable means to achieve their end. Like Loghain- his end goal is the same as anybody else in wanting to protect Ferelden, but his past experiences colors his view of the world and leads him to go about attempting to protect Ferelden via ways people may view as questionable.We didn't need Loghain snorting Andraste's Ashes and turning into a 50 foot tall Mega Loghain to get that point across.
I think part of the problem with how magic was handled in DA2 (and even Indoctrination in ME, if the spoilers are anything to go by) is that its involvement in the Idol and Harvestino not only comes completely out of left field as some kind of gimmicky plot twist but that it completely overrides any humanity those characters may have had. Magic is fine and will likely have a larger role in future DA games, but I'd rather they implement it in such a way that it doesn't steamroll character's humanity instantaneously.
So if there was a way to reverse indoctrination or demonic possession, I think that would be more interesting than the actual initial magical act of demonic possession. Its not the magical act of possession or indoctrination thats necessarily interesting but the human reaction and consequences of that magical act that make it interesting. Not unlike Star Wars and turning from the Dark Side or falling to the Dark Side- its not an instantaneous process but one that happens gradually and its that gradual process that makes it interesting, IMO. But that requires time and character development which Orsino and Meredith didn't really get. I think thats potentially a problem wih games specifically, where its easier to show big flashy magical effects with the initial possession/indoctrination and making that a game-y experience like Lightsaber wielding Meredith and Harvestino as opposed to having to invest more resources into dialogue and cutscenes fleshing out their backstory and character development.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Connor was a fantastic example of it being done right, Isolde wanted to protect her son despite how dangerous he was and as a result he was manipulated by a demon to protect his father. Had Connor simply been possessed and wiped out Redcliffe, the scenario isn't really feeding off the character and the fantasy takes the forefront.
Exactly. As I recall, prior to DAO and even DA2 people like Laidlaw and Gaider made mention of how what they wanted to do with the fantasy approach to DA was having the fantastical like mages shooting fireballs or possibly using mind control on people but then thinking that if crazy stuff like that was possible, how would the "real" world react to that? They'd lock them up like the Templars do.
So yes, Connor is a great example cause it takes one single element of the crazy magical stuff and everyone else is reacting to that fantastical situation in very human ways, like Isolde protecting her kid. You could easily substitute demonic possession for some real world scenario where you see parents in denial and protecting their kid after they've done something bad in real life. In that sense, the scenario felt grounded. The demonic possession itself isn't what made the Connor situation interesting really, its how people reacted to that situation with the fantasy as a means to facilitate the scenario.
I think that ultimately the problem is that it seems like BioWare has positioned much of the fantastical and magical aspects of DA as very black and white. Things like the spirits and demons are completely one note and so when they hijack humans, they're robbing them of any ambiguity and ultimately humanity. Maybe thats comepletely intentional on their part, but it sucks when they do it to characters that are already interesting or potentially interesting all on their own.
As you mentioned, BioWare got it right with something like the Architect and the awakened darkspawn in that they became more interesting antagonists because they added humanity to them. They weren't just a force of nature, mindless enemy anymore. So it would be nice if BioWare could find a way to add some humanity to the magical aspects of the world.
Dave of Canada wrote...
As we approach the Mage and Templar war and the continuation of the Morrigan / Flemeth (with possibly including the God Baby), I fear fantasy may step further into the domain until Dragon Age loses the darker sides of humanity, characters like Loghain and Arl Howe disappearing for things like Harvester Orsino or Idolized Meredith.
Is this fear justified? What are your thoughts on the matter?
Of course you fear is justified, as DA2 illustrated. Although I hope the endgame Act 3 stuff there was mostly a byproduct of rushed development and not necessarily what they were aiming for all along. Maybe we'll get a better look at how they handle more magical elements in the world with Gaider's new book, since it deals with mages and takes place around year 9 (one year before Cassandra interrogated Varric).
Ultimately, other fantasy franchises have been able to balance magic with humanity well enough (The Witcher, Song of Ice and Fire). I think much of it comes down to how BioWare can balance the disconnect in the gameplay world and the dialogue/exploring world. As that was obviously a huge problem in DA2 and the need for a combat boss fight at the end seems to have effectively made a joke of characters like Orsino and Meredith by simply tossing magic at them to make for bigger, flashier boss fights, even though they don't make sense.
Contrast that with something like The Witcher 2 where you've got loads of fantastical stuff going on at the end, but ultimately you're not forced into a boss fight with Letho and its always the human aspect of things which shines through with the magical as a means to showcase how humans react to the fantastical elements in human ways. Same goes with something like Song of Ice and Fire- ok, somebody like Dany gets dragons but oops, she can't control them and they start eating people, thus causing people to resent her.
I think the key is basically the magic stuff can't be left as some unexplained or entirely ambiguous factor at the end of a game/story. The magical stuff is most interesting and engaging when it serves as a catalyst and then gets out of the way so you can see how humans with human emotions and human motivations react to the consequences and fallout from the crazy magical stuff. And thats part of my issue with DA is how they are piling on some interesting questions with respect to the magical aspects of the world, but they're not giving any answers and they're not really doing much with any human consequences and fallout to the magical.
Modifié par Brockololly, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:56 .
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