79 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

esper wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

abnocte wrote...

I don't know, may be her whole family was murdered by a blood mage/abomination and then she decided to join the templars and reach the highest rank so she could keep such tragedies from happening again... or something

That did occur, her sister was an apostate who wiped out her entire family. However, said dialogue only occurs if you side with her at the start of Act 3 and you question her about it later. It's very hidden, though and only goes to show the potential that was ruined with late-game appearence and the idol.

To be fair, I appreciate Meridith not telling my Hawke this, because honestely if you are pro-mage, why would she?
We just needed more Meridith in act 1 so we got a sense of her idol-free.

To try to convince Hawke of her views and motivations? Show the player why she's doing what she's doing?

Stop me if I'm saying something silly or controversial here.

Again, why? On the Loose is that attempt if you are pro-mage, she didn't suceed. I cannot see why she would entrust Hawke wíth personal information which Hawke would use against her the way Meridith uses Hawke's mother against Hawke. If Meridiths ideal is not obvious to Hawke then Hawke is a villain in Meridith's eye who needs to be removed not convinced. In fact I think that Meridith is so paranoid that I think she prefers that Hawke is the obvious enemy (siding with mages) than the migt be enemy (siding with Merdith). 

[CrimsonZephyr]

esper wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

esper wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

abnocte wrote...

I don't know, may be her whole family was murdered by a blood mage/abomination and then she decided to join the templars and reach the highest rank so she could keep such tragedies from happening again... or something

That did occur, her sister was an apostate who wiped out her entire family. However, said dialogue only occurs if you side with her at the start of Act 3 and you question her about it later. It's very hidden, though and only goes to show the potential that was ruined with late-game appearence and the idol.

To be fair, I appreciate Meridith not telling my Hawke this, because honestely if you are pro-mage, why would she?
We just needed more Meridith in act 1 so we got a sense of her idol-free.

To try to convince Hawke of her views and motivations? Show the player why she's doing what she's doing?

Stop me if I'm saying something silly or controversial here.

Again, why? On the Loose is that attempt if you are pro-mage, she didn't suceed. I cannot see why she would entrust Hawke wíth personal information which Hawke would use against her the way Meridith uses Hawke's mother against Hawke. If Meridiths ideal is not obvious to Hawke then Hawke is a villain in Meridith's eye who needs to be removed not convinced. In fact I think that Meridith is so paranoid that I think she prefers that Hawke is the obvious enemy (siding with mages) than the migt be enemy (siding with Merdith). 

There should still be an alternate way of finding out her backstory, in that case.

[Maria Caliban]

Xewaka wrote...

The problem is: How do you make Meredith a satisfying end game boss is she's just a regular human? Not that I disagree with you, as the problem of fantasy trumping humanity is very real. However, they decided that gameplay was more important than history and thus sacrificed the character of Meredith to get an end boss.

Make her Ser Cauthrien.

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The problem is: How do you make Meredith a satisfying end game boss is she's just a regular human? Not that I disagree with you, as the problem of fantasy trumping humanity is very real. However, they decided that gameplay was more important than history and thus sacrificed the character of Meredith to get an end boss.

Make her Ser Cauthrien.

That worked with the tone of combat in DA:O. I'm not sure it would work with the all new hoptastic combat of DA 2.

The best part of making her like Ser Cauthrien, to me, would be that she could then be defeated by dialogue. What can I say, I want dialogue boss battles as introduced in Deus Ex: Human Revolution EVERYWHERE. They are much more satisfying than whittling away red bars.

Modifié par Xewaka, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[thats1evildude]

The squad of archers spamming Scattershot made the fight with Ser Cauthrien difficult. Since DA2 removed Scattershot — likely because it was completely broken and pretty silly to boot — the same battle literally could not happen.

I don't agree with the notion that the magic elements of Dragon Age undermine the "humanity" of the setting. Loghain is a good villain because of what you learn about his motivations. But really, is he any more "human" than Zathrian or Branka? Zathrian is a blood mage who created a werewolf curse, but he's also a grieving father obsessed with revenge. Branka is an insane smith trying to recover a magical anvil, but her actual motivation is to rebuild her civilization.

All of the "villains" of DA2 have very "human" reasons for their actions — prejudice, avarice, pride, mistrust and so on. Bartrand was a greedy bastard who clearly intended to betray Varric and Hawke even before the idol was found. Danarius is a noble trying to recover his lost property; the fact that he's a mage is almost beside the point. Sister Petrice is a bigot who believes the qunari are heretics. The Arishok is a religious zealot. Anders' crusade is motivated by his hatred of the templars and his desire for mage freedom.

We make a lot about how Meredith is driven mad by the idol, but why did she fashion it into a blade in the first place? She was a zealot long before she came in contact with the idol. The idol heightened her paranoia, but it really just gives her the power to match Hawk's group on her own.

If anything, the problem with DA2 is that it's a bit too mundane. We traded werewolves, sylvans for street gangs and slavers. We went from exploring ancient ruins at every turn for trodding through back alleys. It's too much like A Song of Ice and Fire with the serial numbers filed off.

[TEWR]

I don't agree with the notion that the magic elements of Dragon Age undermine the "humanity" of the setting. Loghain is a good villain because of what you learn about his motivations. But really, is he any more "human" than Zathrian or Branka? Zathrian is a blood mage who created a werewolf curse, but he's also a grieving father obsessed with revenge. Branka is an insane smith trying to recover a magical anvil, but her actual motivation is to rebuild her civilization.

That's not really what fantasy overwhelming humanity means. Both of those people were motivated by very human concepts. Their own convictions were what prompted them to do what they did. They weren't forced to do something by some outside artifact that found its way into their possession.

[LinksOcarina]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't agree with the notion that the magic elements of Dragon Age undermine the "humanity" of the setting. Loghain is a good villain because of what you learn about his motivations. But really, is he any more "human" than Zathrian or Branka? Zathrian is a blood mage who created a werewolf curse, but he's also a grieving father obsessed with revenge. Branka is an insane smith trying to recover a magical anvil, but her actual motivation is to rebuild her civilization.

That's not really what fantasy overwhelming humanity means. Both of those people were motivated by very human concepts. Their own convictions were what prompted them to do what they did. They weren't forced to do something by some outside artifact that found its way into their possession.

But neither was Meredith. It just augmented her prejudice and paranoia.

Think of the idol as a physical manifestation of a sin almost, it made her more prideful, but also more dangerous and impossible. It dehumanized her because of her own flaws. 

At least, this is how I see the Idol, Vengance, and other magical constructs taking. The only enemies who didn't have that, and are arguablly more complex, are the Arishok and Sister Petrice, but both of them are dangerous in different ways than what we saw with Meredith, Anders, Bartrand and Orsino.

And someone above kind of hit it hard, the game is more realistic in a sense because the world is more human in it's problems. Is that bad? For some people, I guess it can be, but for me I think it's a breath of fresh air for the fantasy genre.

[Morroian]

thats1evildude wrote...

We make a lot about how Meredith is driven mad by the idol, but why did she fashion it into a blade in the first place? She was a zealot long before she came in contact with the idol. The idol heightened her paranoia, but it really just gives her the power to match Hawk's group on her own.

That's implied but I think it could have been made more explicit by introducing her earlier in the game and giving her more characterisation.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's not really what fantasy overwhelming humanity means. Both of those people were motivated by very human concepts. Their own convictions were what prompted them to do what they did. They weren't forced to do something by some outside artifact that found its way into their possession.

Actually, Branka was being influenced by the Anvil of the Void. You only find that out, however, if you side with her against Caridin and then convince her that the Anvil must be destroyed anyway. Here's a few choice lines from that video if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

Branka: I can hear it. It wants to be used again. It speaks in a hundred different voices. Surely, you can hear them.

Oghren: Didn't you hear what Caridin said? Hundreds of people were bound into golems, trapped inside the Anvil when their bodies were destroyed. That's who you hear!

Branka: The voices … they've been calling me for so long, and I didn't even … Hespith tried to tell me, but I wouldn't listen.

While the werewolf  curse didn't control Zathrian's behaviour, it did extend his life. I believe he was at least partially reluctant to end the curse because it meant his own death, and that means supernatural factors played into his decisions.

The fact that both Branka and Zathrian were being influenced by magic doesn't detract from them being multi-layered, interesting characters. Ditto for Meredith.

I'll concede Morroian's point that it would have been better to meet Meredith in Act 1 beyond her very brief cameo in the opening scene, however.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 décembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

esper wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

esper wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

abnocte wrote...

I don't know, may be her whole family was murdered by a blood mage/abomination and then she decided to join the templars and reach the highest rank so she could keep such tragedies from happening again... or something

That did occur, her sister was an apostate who wiped out her entire family. However, said dialogue only occurs if you side with her at the start of Act 3 and you question her about it later. It's very hidden, though and only goes to show the potential that was ruined with late-game appearence and the idol.

To be fair, I appreciate Meridith not telling my Hawke this, because honestely if you are pro-mage, why would she?
We just needed more Meridith in act 1 so we got a sense of her idol-free.

To try to convince Hawke of her views and motivations? Show the player why she's doing what she's doing?

Stop me if I'm saying something silly or controversial here.

Again, why? On the Loose is that attempt if you are pro-mage, she didn't suceed. I cannot see why she would entrust Hawke wíth personal information which Hawke would use against her the way Meridith uses Hawke's mother against Hawke. If Meridiths ideal is not obvious to Hawke then Hawke is a villain in Meridith's eye who needs to be removed not convinced. In fact I think that Meridith is so paranoid that I think she prefers that Hawke is the obvious enemy (siding with mages) than the migt be enemy (siding with Merdith). 

Then you should be able to learn it from someone else who does think Hawke can be swayed, or it should come from a conversation with information-monger Varric...

Information critical to understanding the story and central characters therein should never be locked three levels deep in a conversation you only have if you choose one side. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 décembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[TEWR]

LinksOcarina wrote...

But neither was Meredith. It just augmented her prejudice and paranoia.

Yea. It enhanced it to the point where she was no longer acting off of her human emotions, but off of what the idol did to her.

When she called for the Annulment and was revealed to have been the buyer for the idol, the issue of whether or not it was lyrium-induced insanity or her own insanity that caused it should've been an unknown to the player.

This requires Meredith to have much more of a presence within the game.

And this may have been the intent on Bioware's part -- as I can't tell -- but it just failed spectaculously.

At least, this is how I see the Idol, Vengance, and other magical constructs taking. The only enemies who didn't have that, and are arguablly more complex, are the Arishok and Sister Petrice, but both of them are dangerous in different ways than what we saw with Meredith, Anders, Bartrand and Orsino.

I wanted Meredith -- and Orsino for pro-Templar people -- to act off of the same things Petrice and the Arishok acted off of. Their own traits that had nothing to do with poor story excuses and cheap gimmicks to try -- and fail -- to tie the Acts together.

thats1evildude wrote...



Actually, Branka was being influenced by the Anvil of the Void. You only find that out, however, if you side with her against Caridin and then convince her that the Anvil must be destroyed anyway. Here's a few choice lines from that video if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

Somehow I doubt it was influencing her all the way from Orzammar, where she first hatched the scheme to find it.

While the werewolf  curse didn't control Zathrian's behaviour, it did extend his life. I believe he was at least partially reluctant to end the curse because it meant his own death, and that means supernatural factors played into his decisions.

But that deals with a very human element. Fear. Especially fear of the unknown, if one were to think that he feels the clan would fall apart without him.

I'll concede Morroian's point that it would have been better to meet Meredith in Act 1 beyond her very brief cameo in the opening scene, however.

This would've helped, but there's a lot more that needs to be done with Meredith and Orsino to actually make their story arcs appropriate.

More than just a few meetings. They should've been key parts of all 3 acts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Somehow I doubt it was influencing her all the way from Orzammar, where she first hatched the scheme to find it.

Does proximity matter? It's a magical anvil speaking through the voices of all the dwarves who were transformed into golems. From what I can tell, she'd been hearing the Anvil's call for years.

Why complain about the lyrium idol's influence on Meredith and not the Anvil's influence on Branka?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that deals with a very human element. Fear. Especially fear of the unknown, if one were to think that he feels the clan would fall apart without him.

But it was there. The OP's entire point is that the 'fantasy' overwhelms the 'humanity' of DA. I'm showing that it doesn't.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[abnocte]

@thats1evildude

I think you raise a very valid point even though I don't fully agree with you.

But you made me think.... and, as I see it, DA2 presentation of mundane themes fails to bring out the "humanity" in them.

Let's see if I can explain.

In DAO we have Zathrian,  you can learn about his past by talking to Lanaya and talking to him can also give some insight into his character. Then again if you talk to the Lady of the Forest she explains things to you.

The curse came to be because of the tragedy that destroyed Zathrian's family, and for what the Lady of the Forest says the immortality thing was a side effect that neither had forseen.

Did immortality influence his reluctancy to end the curse? If so, why would he want to be immortal? Just for the sake of it, because who wouldn't want to be? The insight the game gives us is that his resentment towards humans drove his motivations, that he didn't want to raise the curse because he still tought those humans deserved it, if all the while he would be able to watch over his clan forever... so be it. 


In DA2 we have Meredith, early in the game you learn through different sources that she is the knight-commander and that she is making mages tranquil left and right. We don't meet her until the end of the second act and throught the third act what we learn about her? what's the core of her motivations?  Only in a very specific way you can learn about Meredith's past.

The DA2 doesn't show us the "humanity" behind her motivations, and we are talking about the end boss here. How come she doesn't get a decent spotlight? 
DAO did a better job showing us such humanity even for side characters, so yes, I think the OP raises a good point and his fears are justified. I just hope the reason behind this is more because of DA2 being rushed and having to cut corners story-wise than an intended game design decision.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Does proximity matter? It's a magical anvil speaking through the voices of all the dwarves who were transformed into golems. From what I can tell, she'd been hearing the Anvil's call for years.

Why complain about the lyrium idol's influence on Meredith and not the Anvil's influence on Branka?

Because we know that the idol was influencing Meredith right from the moment she acquired it.

We don't know if the Anvil was influencing Branka all the way from Orzammar, and thus how much it influenced her quest to find it is unknown.

But it was there. The OP's entire point is that the 'fantasy' overwhelms the 'humanity' of DA. I'm showing that it doesn't.

Except DoC makes it clear that he doesn't hate the idea of the fantasy being a part of the humanity. For both Zathrian and Branka the fantasy was not overwhelming the humanity. The humanity was either equal to or greater than the fantasy.

It worked with the humanity. It didn't undermine it.

That's what Meredith's idol did. It removed any trace of humanity within her character. Meredith became a mere shell of who she was supposed to be. The idol was powering everything she did.

What was left were a few of her human elements, which is not quite the same thing as her humanity.

Humanity is the quality of being human.

Human elements refers to human behavior.

Meredith was left with these human elements:

1) Fear
2) Paranoia
3) Fanatical zealotry.
4) Fervent hatred of all things magic

This makes her someone who has lost her humanity. This makes her someone that cannot be sympathized with or agreed with. This is in sharp contrast to Zathrian and Branka, who can be sympathized with and even agreed with.

She isn't human anymore. Thus the fantasy completely overwhelmed the humanity

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Meredith was left with these human elements:

1) Fear
2) Paranoia
3) Fanatical zealotry.
4) Fervent hatred of all things magic

Those were all she had to begin with. I don't understand what other elements you perceive that the idol supposedly removed.

[thats1evildude]

abnocte wrote...

Did immortality influence his reluctancy to end the curse? If so, why would he want to be immortal? Just for the sake of it, because who wouldn't want to be?

The Lady of the Forest suggests that Zathrian's reluctance to end the curse was also motivated by the Dalish's belief that he had regained the immortality of their ancestors. He couldn't bring himself to tell them the truth.
`

abnocte wrote...

The DA2 doesn't show us the "humanity" behind her motivations, and we are talking about the end boss here. How come she doesn't get a decent spotlight?

But you see, that's really more an issue of characterization than of the "fantasy overtaking the humanity" of DA2.

If you never saw Loghain in a cutscene from the moment he betrayed Cailan at Ostagar and the start of the Landsmeet, you would never have any inkling that he was grappling with his actions. He comes off as a power-hungry tyrant when you reach Denerim, and unless you spare him, you never truly understand his reasons.

I've already agreed that Meredith should have been seen earlier. But again, this is an issue of characterization, not the impact of magical plot devices.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because we know that the idol was influencing Meredith right from the moment she acquired it.

We do? That's news to me. I knew she acquired the idol in Act 2 but I guess I missed the cutscene showing it possessing her. It's odd that she wielded the power of the idol but didn't bother using it against the qunari. I guess she felt like sandbagging it against the Arishok.

Let's aside the bull****, shall we? You have no more idea than I do when the lyrium idol began to exert its influence over Meredith than when Branka began to hear the voices of the Anvil of the Void, and vice versa.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Meredith was left with these human elements:

1) Fear
2) Paranoia
3) Fanatical zealotry.
4) Fervent hatred of all things magic

She had all these things before, as Plaintiff said. The lyrium idol only exacerbated these qualities. And in the end, she doubted whether she was truly doing the right thing.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is in sharp contrast to Zathrian and Branka, who can be sympathized with and even agreed with.

Only their original motivations are sympathetic. After all the atrocities I've seen committed with magic, I can't say that I entirely disagree with the templars.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 décembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[TEWR]

Those were all she had to begin with. I don't understand what other elements you perceive that the idol supposedly removed.

Of course she had those before. But they didn't define her entire persona as people often agreed with her and sided with her. Once she acquired the idol, that all changed. Only those elements were left.

Thus, her humanity vanished. An empty husk was left in its wake.

We do? That's news to me. I knew she acquired the idol in Act 2 but I guess I missed the cutscene showing it possessing her. It's odd that she wielded the power of the idol but didn't bother using it against the qunari. I guess she felt like sandbagging it against the Arishok.

Let's aside the bull****, shall we? You have no more idea than I do when the lyrium idol began to exert its influence over Meredith than when Branka began to hear the voices of the Anvil of the Void, and vice versa.

Yes we do. We know that she became incredibly reclusive during Act 2. People began to wonder if something was wrong.

We can also clearly see the lyriumsaber in the beginning of Act 3, which tells us that she has already been lost to the effects of it. It immediately started working its foul magic on Bartrand -- as you can clearly see it glow when he acquires it -- so it did the same thing with Meredith when she acquired it.

Only their original motivations are sympathetic. After all the atrocities I've seen committed with magic, I can't say that I entirely disagree with the templars.

Well, I'll concede you can't really agree with Branka's methods. They were too extreme. Though she should've just used the Darkspawn as bait in the first place instead of her clan. There were a lot of Hurlocks and a couple Ogres amongst the group in that area. Seems like an Ogre would be able to take on Golems easily.

And I don't disagree with the Templars either. Oversight and restrictions are needed, but the Templars take it too far.

I've often posted my ideas for reforming the system on numerous other threads.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 décembre 2011 - 01:16 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

esper wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

abnocte wrote...

I don't know, may be her whole family was murdered by a blood mage/abomination and then she decided to join the templars and reach the highest rank so she could keep such tragedies from happening again... or something

That did occur, her sister was an apostate who wiped out her entire family. However, said dialogue only occurs if you side with her at the start of Act 3 and you question her about it later. It's very hidden, though and only goes to show the potential that was ruined with late-game appearence and the idol.

To be fair, I appreciate Meridith not telling my Hawke this, because honestely if you are pro-mage, why would she?
We just needed more Meridith in act 1 so we got a sense of her idol-free.

To try to convince Hawke of her views and motivations? Show the player why she's doing what she's doing?

Stop me if I'm saying something silly or controversial here.

It makes sense to me that Meredith would keep that information to herself and that she wouldn't make a big deal about it (she sees things as they are and everybody already knows the facts and stories) so any expository dialog would have been nice

still though it would have been nice regardless to have that bit of dialog anyway at least to show us that Meredith's base ideals are more justified than we think (although having Meredith and Orsino in more of Act 1 and 2 would have also helped with this even more)

[Urazz]

esper wrote...

I don't mind the idol idea. In fact I think it is necessary to bind act1 and act 3 together and make the Deep Roads important. I do, however, think it could be executed better. What we needed was.
- We needed to see Meridith in act 1 or the prologe. To her her speaking, interacting with her templars and also to get a clearer idea of how she was like.
- We needed to know exactly what the idol does. Drives people crazy in not precise enough.
- On the mage side we needed to be overopowered by the templars. Why they didn't just make a cutscene with about fifty templars (or another number that seems overwhelming) entered the room, so Orsino's freak out makes sense I will never know. If the player felt overpowered as well Orsino's character would have made much more sense.

This exactly.  If they did stuff like this, I think Meredith's and Orsino's actions would've made alot more sense and make the story more believeable.

[Plaintiff]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

esper wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

abnocte wrote...

I don't know, may be her whole family was murdered by a blood mage/abomination and then she decided to join the templars and reach the highest rank so she could keep such tragedies from happening again... or something

That did occur, her sister was an apostate who wiped out her entire family. However, said dialogue only occurs if you side with her at the start of Act 3 and you question her about it later. It's very hidden, though and only goes to show the potential that was ruined with late-game appearence and the idol.

To be fair, I appreciate Meridith not telling my Hawke this, because honestely if you are pro-mage, why would she?
We just needed more Meridith in act 1 so we got a sense of her idol-free.

To try to convince Hawke of her views and motivations? Show the player why she's doing what she's doing?

Stop me if I'm saying something silly or controversial here.

It makes sense to me that Meredith would keep that information to herself and that she wouldn't make a big deal about it (she sees things as they are and everybody already knows the facts and stories) so any expository dialog would have been nice

still though it would have been nice regardless to have that bit of dialog anyway at least to show us that Meredith's base ideals are more justified than we think (although having Meredith and Orsino in more of Act 1 and 2 would have also helped with this even more)

Haha, can you imagine?

"Hello, mage-supporting Hawke, who I despise for challenging my authority. I have decided, for no particular reason, that now is the perfect time to tell you all about my dead sister. If this blatant and uninvited over-share doesn't guilt you into siding with me, then nothing will!"

Meredith's story is extremely personal. Were she of sounder mind in general, I doubt she'd just spill her guts to Hawke, even if he specifically asked.

And, just personally, it doesn't change my opinion even slightly. What happened to her a bajillion years ago, while sad, has no bearing on the situation Hawke is dealing with in the present. At best, it just cements my opinion that Meredith is too emotionally involved to be objective about mages and magic, and should never have been recruited into the Templar Order. If they had psych evaluations, she wouldn't have been.

[Dmasterman]

The only thing I really recall of humanity's reality in DA were that some of the people and their countries were based off real world ones. Orlais being based off France, Ferelden being based off Britain or England, and I think one was based off Spain, another Portugal and so on and soon

[HiroVoid]

Plaintiff wrote...
Haha, can you imagine?

"Hello, mage-supporting Hawke, who I despise for challenging my authority. I have decided, for no particular reason, that now is the perfect time to tell you all about my dead sister. If this blatant and uninvited over-share doesn't guilt you into siding with me, then nothing will!"

Meredith's story is extremely personal. Were she of sounder mind in general, I doubt she'd just spill her guts to Hawke, even if he specifically asked.

And, just personally, it doesn't change my opinion even slightly. What happened to her a bajillion years ago, while sad, has no bearing on the situation Hawke is dealing with in the present. At best, it just cements my opinion that Meredith is too emotionally involved to be objective about mages and magic, and should never have been recruited into the Templar Order. If they had psych evaluations, she wouldn't have been.

But it should be the devs job to make sure the player at least somehow gets a hold of that type of information on such an important character in the story.  The same problem happened with Loghain.  You really don't get his take on everything he's done and what's happened unless you spare him.  It almost feels like the devs want to make sure you can just view them as evilly as possible without remorse(and hearing the story doesn't have to make you feel remorse or anything.) if you don't take certain paths.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 10 décembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Dave of Canada]

Orsino: It's a shame I see where she's coming from.
Hawke: What do you mean?
Orsino: [explains about Meredith's sister]

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Orsino: It's a shame I see where she's coming from.
Hawke: What do you mean?
Orsino: [explains about Meredith's sister]

Or

Meredith: I used to think like you.  I though the Templars methods were too harsh.  But then my sister...

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

Thats true, but I think even then, if you're looking at the Archdemon through the Dark Ritual proposition its not necessarily black and white. Yes, you have to physically kill the Archdemon to stop the Blight, but thats the twist with Morrigan and the OGB, in that you could potentially view her Ritual as possibly preserving the soul of the Old God/Archdemon. Which could be a bad thing or a good thing depending on your PC. 
[/quote]

I'd enjoy the Dark Ritual if it's possible consequences were brought up more, we're just thrown into it and told "Sleep with me to live, otherwise you die". While it's certainly implied that the Dark Ritual isn't going to be nice and happy since it'll hold the soul of the old god, it should've been more... explored.

My problem with the decision, especially with the supposed Dark Ritual prophecy in DA2, the consequences for the ritual are completely out of nowhere and nobody could really forsee what would occur from it. Obviously the soul of an Old God is kind of a big deal, it just doesn't explain how so.

Unlike say the Harrowmont choice which you can pinpoint exactly where the decision could backfire (and does) or how it could work in the future, though they've decided to go a bit more into exploring that with Legacy (the old gods lie!) it's a little too late.

Off-topic: And I assume they know this, I doubt we're going to see world altering consequences from the decision (much to the chagrin of many) simply because the "Dark Ritual" default import from Dragon Age 2 doesn't even bother to mention the ritual, it just mentions you survived. If we'd see Morrigan again and she mentions the ritual, new players would be completely confused.
[quote]I agree with you there (thats got to be a first:wizard:).[/quote]

The world, it's ending!

[quote]We didn't need Loghain snorting Andraste's Ashes and turning into a 50 foot tall Mega Loghain to get that point across.[/quote]

Though that does lead to a funny mental image and needs to be drawn now, sake of comedy / parody of course.

Writers, if you're reading this, do not make Loghain snort Andraste's ashes.

[quote]I think part of the problem with how magic was handled in DA2 (and even Indoctrination in ME, if the spoilers are anything to go by) is that its involvement  in the Idol and Harvestino not only comes completely out of left field as some kind of gimmicky plot twist but that it completely overrides any humanity those characters may have had.  Magic is fine and will likely have a larger role in future DA games, but I'd rather they implement it in such a way that it doesn't steamroll character's humanity instantaneously.[/quote]

And that's why I'm worried for the future of the Dragon Age series, I'm worried we're going to hear things like the Grand Enchanter being possessed by a Pride Demon and the Knight-Vigilant is possessed by the enchanted undergarments of Archon Hessarian and that's why he made the order leave the Chantry, simply to see the Chantry destroyed.

We're going to a very inhuman conflict, there needs to be human elements integrated into it. Worried it won't or it'll be handled poorly.

[quote]I think thats potentially a problem wih games specifically, where its easier to show big flashy magical effects with the initial possession/indoctrination and making that a game-y experience like Lightsaber wielding Meredith and Harvestino as opposed to having to invest more resources into dialogue and cutscenes fleshing out their backstory and character development.[/quote]

I don't necessairly view it as problematic with games specifically, the problem mostly stems from Dragon Age 2 trying to tell multiple stories across multiple years with barely any ties to each other. While trying to explain three stories, it failed at delivering the biggest one as it ended up at the end and was possibly rushed as a result.

Until Act 3, we're constantly seeing the mage/templar build up but we're completely seperated from it. Hawke can decide whether to release a mage or two, yet Orsino or Meredith isn't seen until the very end of Act 2 (which is completely unrelated to the mage/templar story).

Had all three stories focused on the build up with the mage/templar war, Hawke's involvement in it all (rather than in the end where you're only involved cause you're the Champion) and it's effects on Kirkwall then we might've had backstory and character development for both Meredith and Orsino which allowed for more "human" final conflicts.

Act 3 mostly handwaived all of this as occuring between act 2 and 3 where the player has nothing to say.

[quote]Exactly. As I recall, prior to DAO and even DA2 people like Laidlaw and Gaider made mention of how what they wanted to do with the fantasy approach to DA was having the fantastical like mages shooting fireballs or possibly using mind control on people but then thinking that if crazy stuff like that was possible, how would the "real" world react to that? They'd lock them up like the Templars do.[/quote]

Which is why I'm a big fan of the Templar. 

[quote]I think that ultimately the problem is that it seems like BioWare has positioned much of the fantastical and magical aspects of DA as very black and white. Things like the spirits and demons are completely one note and so when they hijack humans, they're robbing them of any ambiguity and ultimately humanity. Maybe thats comepletely intentional on their part, but it sucks when they do it to characters that are already interesting or potentially interesting all on their own.[/quote]

At best, possession should only come into play if there's sufficient story build up toward it or it influences how other characters react (man keeps his possessed wife imprisoned and takes care of her after chopping off anything that could be used by her to cast magic).

Marethari's possession comes into mind as also being something done in Dragon Age 2 that was pretty good, it established that she cared about Merrill and did everything in her power, including sacrificing herself, to protect her. The possession was only secondary to the entire experience, it could've been any number of things that could've replaced it.

[quote]As you mentioned, BioWare got it right with something like the Architect and the awakened darkspawn in that they became more interesting antagonists because they added humanity to them. They weren't just a  force of nature, mindless enemy anymore. So it would be nice if BioWare could find a way to add some humanity to the magical aspects of the world.[/quote]

I think they've done that a bit  with the creation of Justice/Vengeance and how one's own feelings can warp a simple concept ("Justice") into it's darker path, though it's still quite black and white.

[quote]Maybe we'll get a better look at how they handle more magical elements in the world with Gaider's new book, since it deals with mages and takes place around year 9 (one year before Cassandra interrogated Varric).[/quote]

What worries me is the synopsis:
[quote]Wynne's estranged mage son, Rhys is also a major character, trying to prove his innocence as he embarks on a journey into the western wastelands. There, he finds more than he bargained for, and changes the fate of his fellow mages forever.[/quote]

I doubt anything "normal" can result from the Sea of Ash / Urthemial Plateau which changes the fates of mages forever, though it depends on how it's handled and what it means (maybe it's the final straw to the mage/templar war, as it doesn't seem to have started yet at that point).

[quote]Ultimately, other fantasy franchises have been able to balance magic with humanity well enough (The Witcher, Song of Ice and Fire). I think much of it comes down to how BioWare can balance the disconnect in the gameplay world and the dialogue/exploring world. As that was obviously a huge problem in DA2 and the need for a combat boss fight at the end seems to have effectively made a joke of characters like Orsino and Meredith by simply tossing magic at them to make for bigger, flashier boss fights, even though they don't make sense.[/quote]

I'll admit to not having read the Song of Ice and Fire novels, though I've watched the first season of the television series and won't comment on it for fear of it changing in season 2 (as the wall seems to imply some more fantastical elements will take place and I need to see how that's handled).

However, I do see what you mean. I'll admit to not caring much for The Witcher but I can greatly appreciate it's storytelling, it usually keeps the politics on the forefront. Everybody does what they do because that's who they are, the most fantastical elements even having some humanity in them (The Dragon or the haunting of the asylum for example).

At least when it does introduce fantasy elements for the sake of fantasy, they're usually kept clearly disjointed or play a low role in the politics. The Kayran didn't overextend it's role more than what was necessary, for example.

Same goes with something like Song of Ice and Fire- ok, somebody like Dany gets dragons but oops, she can't control them and they start eating people, thus causing people to resent her.


[quote]I think the key is basically the magic stuff can't be left as some unexplained or entirely ambiguous factor at the end of a game/story. The magical stuff is most interesting and engaging when it serves as a catalyst and then gets out of the way so you can see how humans with human emotions and human motivations react to the consequences and fallout from the crazy magical stuff. And thats part of my issue with DA is how they are piling on some interesting questions with respect to the magical aspects of the world, but they're not giving any answers and they're not really doing much with any human consequences and fallout to the magical.
[/quote]

Agreed.