Aller au contenu

Photo

Old Gods


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
92 réponses à ce sujet

#76
code2501

code2501
  • Members
  • 38 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

Only the Tiventer Imperium has slaves and the Exalted March was called by the Orleisian Chantry.
...

If you take Leliana, she says that the architecture is both Tevinter AND Elven in origin, though she doesn’t know how that could be.


The elves in denerim alienage are surfs in all but name, the only jobs they can hold are as menial workers. I doubt the orleisan alienages are much different.

As for the architecture, it is the same style architercture as the first ruins in the dalish origin story with the mirror, and duncan says that the mirror is a Imperium device, not elven, yet there is a statue of an elven god in the ruin.

Run through the dalish origin and pay close attention to the dialouge with your friend, he says that the keeper never mentioned any time that elves lived underground, and that it was very strange to find ancient elvish writing and statues depicting elvish gods in those ruins... and then Duncan says flat out that the mirror is tevinter in origin...

#77
Forumtroll

Forumtroll
  • Members
  • 323 messages
Maybe it's a total myth that elves once an advanced culture, probably spread by Shartan and Andraste to gather more troops.

#78
Alphram

Alphram
  • Members
  • 29 messages
The Dalish speaker (the one that recite's the poem) claims he's never heard of Elves living in ruins, but he goes on to say that the Elves were fairly widespread, so they wouldn't all necessarily be the same. So it is feasible they might have underground cities. The Brecilian ruins are underground, and that definitely harkens back to the time of the ageless Elves.

#79
kahare

kahare
  • Members
  • 11 messages
I'd had a lot of thoughts on this that several people have already pulled out a few things that I have been trying to string together.

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Elven Gods = Old Gods
Fen'Harel = Maker

That's
my theory anyway. The Maker sealed away the Old Gods, Fen'Harel sealed
away the Elven Gods. Of course, there are eight elf gods and only seven
old gods


If you take a look at the Elven Gods they have one goddess, Ghilan'nain, who is not actually originally 'divine' per se, by the elves, she was a mortal woman turned into a god. *cough* Andraste *cough*. I'm not saying they are exactly the same woman, but seeing a similar story re-echoed across pantheons requires some scrutany.

In the real world, where we see echos across different cultures that have the same sorts of stories - especially noted in the flood stories that are in most early religions and histories - archeologists look for the flood, the memory in human consciousness that might have sparked this idea. I believe the betrayal of Fen'Harel and the victory of the Maker over the Old Gods is one such event in Thedas history. I know Thedas is fictional, of course, but the devs might very well have been considering these ideas as they were writing.

MBirkhofer wrote...

The
Dalish origin is interesting as it does show Tvinter mages, with Elven
artifacts and gods, in the ruins where they communicate with their Old
gods. This is strong suggestion that the Dalish god pantheon is, in
fact, the old dragon gods, under different names or something.


I  believe what this might indicate is that Elves had their original gods and these gods eventually moved into Dragon form, attempting to take advantage of long lives (and inherent magic?) of the host body to speak in a form that humans already worshipped. It's possible that the earliest humans also worshiped Dragons, much like the Andrastean dragon cult we see during the Urn quest and the Elven Gods hoped to take advantage of this but were double crossed by the Maker (aka Fen'Harel). Fen'Harel managed to trap them in these forms and underground, however, but he couldn't keep them from wandering the Fade. This 'co sharing' or transference of gods might help explain why somehow the Elven/Tevinter statues are elven gods *with wings that look like dragon wings* on them.

After that, well, I've concocted an elaborate theory that the Maker is actually using the Grey Wardens and the Taint as a way of finally destroying the Old Gods. I like it, but I don't know how well it flies. The question that remains unanswered in this theory are who are the Forgotten Ones of Elven lore and might they prove to be even more dangerous than the Old Gods/Archdemons or the Maker.

#80
code2501

code2501
  • Members
  • 38 messages

kahare wrote...
The question that remains unanswered in this theory are who are the Forgotten Ones of Elven lore and might they prove to be even more dangerous than the Old Gods/Archdemons or the Maker.


iirc the forgotten ones are simply part of the elvish pantheon, but the evil side, gods of fear, malice, war... etc.

#81
kahare

kahare
  • Members
  • 11 messages

code2501 wrote...

iirc the forgotten ones are simply part of the elvish pantheon, but the evil side, gods of fear, malice, war... etc.


I meant more in a 'where are they now?' sense. If the Old Gods are imprisoned or dead, and Fel'Harel is the Maker, that leaves a question of what part of the cosmology are we missing for the Forgotten Ones to fill. Fade Demons? Humans? Dwarves? Dwarven ancestors? etc.

#82
code2501

code2501
  • Members
  • 38 messages

kahare wrote...

I meant more in a 'where are they now?' sense. If the Old Gods are imprisoned or dead, and Fel'Harel is the Maker, that leaves a question of what part of the cosmology are we missing for the Forgotten Ones to fill. Fade Demons? Humans? Dwarves? Dwarven ancestors? etc.

none, there forgotten Old Gods, which is why the chantry myths font mention them, and the elves refer to them as "the forgotten ones". Also from that list of elvish gods I think the god of chaos was a 'forgotten one'.

#83
Nikolaus

Nikolaus
  • Members
  • 71 messages
One can always speculate, but for the time being the official story seems to be that the Old Gods are powerful dragons - very powerful that is, and above even the High Dragons.


http://dragonage.bio....com/creatures/

And indeed, given that the High Dragon "Andraste" was able to get an entire community under her hold, it is not difficult to see dragons even MORE powerful being able to do that to an empire.

Modifié par Nikolaus, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:47 .


#84
Guest_anaea123_*

Guest_anaea123_*
  • Guests

After that, well, I've concocted an elaborate theory that the Maker is
actually using the Grey Wardens and the Taint as a way of finally
destroying the Old Gods.


It's not that far out...

**Novel spoiler for The Calling below**





In The Calling we're introduced to a sentient darkspawn called The Architect.  He's a manipulative bad guy, but his purpose seems to also be the destruction of the Old Gods (prior to them being tainted by Darkspawn, yes, but I didn't get the sense that he's picky). 

You can't help but wonder whether the destruction of these beings is, in fact, all that noble once you meet him...

#85
Inakhia

Inakhia
  • Members
  • 123 messages
Love code2501 thoughts, they feel pretty close to what I've been pondering.

Few rambling notes, rampant speculation and happy fangirling ****** to add:



Wardens Keep? enters a new thought that the 'blight' is very much alien and different to the Fade I think. Hence the mage's continuing experimentation.

To my thoughts along codes line...

Elves used to 'walk/exist' mostly in the Fade. Reality for them was like a living dream, hence their magic and ties to the Fade.

Dwarves are their polar opposites. Bound to the earth and completley unable to touch the Fade. However their very earthbound nature allows them to work 'lyrium'.

..Does something in the earth/ground make Lyrium or does the earth act like a catalyst, pulling raw magic out of the air? and condensing it into a physical substance.

Possible idea of elemental polar opposites here. Fade = Plane of Air/Magic. Hence anything that's related to the Earth is foreign to it?

Humans are neither elf nor dwarf, but something in between, hence their ability to touch the fade in our dreams.



Old Gods: Maybe not Fade Vessels but instead perhaps something else that resided in the ground before the elves came about. Following the planar elements thought (possibly to breaking :)) If the Fade plane has native Spirits, why not the Earthen plane? Perhaps ancient entities with incredibly alien minds that are constantly opposed? We haven't really seen the most powerful creatures of the Fade, we know that. There are those statues everywhere in there of the hooded man with the spike/tentacles rising from his body and arms. What is that?

because its something that's apparently happy to help test/play with mages and smart enough not to draw attention to itself like the lesser demons do.



Elven ruins: I thought those were the remains of Arlathan. Elves and humans like side be side for a short time ( elves-who knows how long for humans), tho time could warped memories, so what now looks like elven and tevinter, may instead be pure elven? If Arlathan was the great prehuman culture, wouldn't it make more sense for humans to copy the elves architechture, at least initially.



Dragons: If we only seem to see newborn, juvenile or flying/Breeding females, Where are the males? Why so much time between sightings?



Blood Magic: It seems to be woven throughout so much history.

The Dalish keeper used it to create the curse. The Grey Wardens use it to control the Taint. The ancient elves and Tevinter mages used it. The Templars/Mage cirlce use it as a means to track rogue Circle mages. Perhaps Blood Magic is a 'devolved' form of magic. Not using pure Fade essence/power, but something else, with a very physical medium of living blood essence.

...Blood contains Iron, which makes it red and an element binding it to earth. The power of Blood magic is its ability to draw from more than one source ( the Fade) and instead from two sources. Fade and Earth? The two power sources being opposing, is why blood magic 'warps' its users?



...out of ideas for now.

#86
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages
Someone got hte timeline mixed up methinks.



The old gods being imprisioned and teaching the magisters magic must have happened BEFORE Aralathan fell. After all, how can a large and powerfull elven empire with arcane warriors fall easily wihout humans having comparable magics (or mages at all)?

#87
Walina

Walina
  • Members
  • 594 messages
If the old gods are really those corupted mages, then god banished after they tainted the gold city and improsoned them into the earth.



Though, story said that they were the first Blight could it be that god banished them after the it ? So now the darkspawn only try to free them from their prison ?



So Morrigan old god child is problably one of those corrupted mages O.o

#88
sagevallant

sagevallant
  • Members
  • 853 messages

jeckaldied wrote...

I am not convinced the Old Gods are anything more than
simple high dragons. Nothing but legend surronds the time that they were
actually worshiped, and if the dragon Andraste proved anything, it's that
people can pretty easily buy into a giant dragon being a god, and that high
dragons are atleast intelligent enough to reap the benefits of a cult
worshipping them.

I feel that the Archdemon is simply a high dragon possessed by some extra
special darkspawn taint (Supertaint, for lack of an actual term). Such a high
concentration of taint in such a powerful body gives it a focus point for the
Uni-mind that controls the darkspawn. The taint goes to the dragons soul, and
so it's soul will go to the next tainted thing, to powerful to die just from
losing it's body.

Interesting to note that not only had the darkspawn been thought defeated at
the beginning of the game, up in till the end of the Stolen Throne, Dragons had
been thought extinct, I think High Dragons (especially easily taintable ones) are
rare enough to explain the in frequent blights, and with the decline in dragon
numbers, the frequency of blights dropped too.


Pretty sure that the Seven High Dragons are the Old Gods. With Archdemons being what happens when the Taint infects these massively OP creatures, who are sleeping underground. Not a safe place to take a nap, imho.

This is why I have a positive outlook; this was, what, the 4th Blight? 5th? Anyway, they're running out of dragons! WEWT! Good will win soon. :lol:

#89
BlackLotus30

BlackLotus30
  • Members
  • 135 messages
You know it say that Dumat was the leader of the Old Gods and the First Blight and that Andraste lived during the time it happened. That the Grey Warden was created after the first Blight, so who defeated the first blight?



Anyway i'm still saying that the Maker is not real and that one of the old gods wanted power over the other ones, but why would he need the Tevinter mages to do it. Unless the golden city was never meant to have mortals walking into its halls? I'm not talking about sins but more like er....mortals affecting the balance in an immortal world/plane/dimension? You can see the affect Humans have on Elves as elves lost their immortality with cross-breeding with humans....so maybe it was the same for the Old Gods?

#90
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 739 messages

Forumtroll wrote...

Maybe it's a total myth that elves once an advanced culture, probably spread by Shartan and Andraste to gather more troops.

I was hoping to discover the truth of this in the Dalish Elf origin, since the knowledge of the Ancient Tevinter Empire seems to clash with the evidence that you find in the elven ruins. I'm hoping my char can at least speak to some of the spirits there (not holding my breath though). I haven't getten very far into this playthrough but so far it looks promising.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 04:00 .


#91
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 739 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone got hte timeline mixed up methinks.

The old gods being imprisioned and teaching the magisters magic must have happened BEFORE Aralathan fell. After all, how can a large and powerfull elven empire with arcane warriors fall easily wihout humans having comparable magics (or mages at all)?


Not sure. All the codex says from the First Blight is that the Old Gods taught the Tevinter mages blood magic which allowed them to storm the Fade. They could have done that imprisoned or not, but either way, this does not make preserving the Old Gods seem like such a good idea. As such the final choice you make near end of the game seems all the more like a bad idea.

#92
screwoffreg

screwoffreg
  • Members
  • 2 505 messages
If you trust what Arl Foreshadow has to say, I imagine Morrigan's bastard offspring will attract a lot of attention from the Fade, perhaps even its fellow Old Gods? Whatever Morrigan's plans, I would imagine that her child is likely to not play into her hands and, as a result, trigger some unfortunate results for her and the rest of the world...

#93
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 739 messages

screwoffreg wrote...

If you trust what Arl Foreshadow has to say, I imagine Morrigan's bastard offspring will attract a lot of attention from the Fade, perhaps even its fellow Old Gods? Whatever Morrigan's plans, I would imagine that her child is likely to not play into her hands and, as a result, trigger some unfortunate results for her and the rest of the world...


Oh yeah. "Flemeth's plan? Probably not going to turn out quite the way you expect Morrigan." Too bad that response wasn't allowed.