215 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

It seems like a great society in so many ways. Not perfect, but no society is. Instead of everyone fending for themselves and trying to find happiness on their own, they receive their callings from a higher ranking power. Through testing the people, the Qun can make very educated guesses at what you would do a good job spending your time with. This means everyone gets to be productive and feel like part of something greater than themselves, each and every person important as cogs in a wheel of society. Less people would feel lost and could instead focus on doing what they do best.

Of course, the drawback is an obvious lack of freedoms. Is the freedom to do the wrong choice and the freedom to fail truly things we want, however? I feel very compelled by the Qun myself and would definitely look into them if their society was real. Is this just my unemployed self seeing roses where there is only mirage, or are there others who feel similarly?

[Gibb_Shepard]

You just defined theoretical communism. Move to north Korea and all of your dreams will come true, in theory.

[esper]

Freedom to do the wrong choice and fail is exactly what makes us human (in my opinion). And an educated guess will never be good enough since you will always make some wrong guesses. There will always be people who is not happy doing what they are 'best' at and thus will suffer.
I think that qun is a lot like communism. It builds on an idealistic ideal of everybody being equal and important to the socity, but when it has to be praticed in reality it falls apart and becomes a tyranic regim that in the qun's case is violent as well.

[bleetman]

Not really, no. I prefer freedom of thought. "Do exactly as we say or die" isn't my idea of a good time.

[frustratemyself]

You could always start a cult, like that lot in the UK that made Jedi Knight their religion.

[Kidd]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You just defined theoretical communism. Move to north Korea and all of your dreams will come true, in theory.

Sadly, I doubt north Korea have these minister-like people (I don't remember what they're called, I do believe most of them were women, that's about what I remember =)) whose calling in life is to help others reach their potential.

esper wrote...
Freedom to do the wrong choice and fail is exactly what makes us human (in my opinion). And an educated guess will never be good enough since you will always make some wrong guesses. There will always be people who is not happy doing what they are 'best' at and thus will suffer. 
I think that qun is a lot like communism. It builds on an idealistic ideal of everybody being equal and important to the socity, but when it has to be praticed in reality it falls apart and becomes a tyranic regim that in the qun's case is violent as well.

Yes, sometimes the guess will be off. Hence I put "educated guess" in my OP indeed, I didn't want to sound all too brainwashed and rosey-eyed here =) Of course things go wrong. But there's also many who never find a path they're happy walking in Ferelden and other more free lands as well. No system is perfect, sadly.

[AlexXIV]

I don't know about others, but freedom to make my own choices and to fail is exactly what I want.

[esper]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You just defined theoretical communism. Move to north Korea and all of your dreams will come true, in theory.

Sadly, I doubt north Korea have these minister-like people (I don't remember what they're called, I do believe most of them were women, that's about what I remember =)) whose calling in life is to help others reach their potential.

esper wrote...
Freedom to do the wrong choice and fail is exactly what makes us human (in my opinion). And an educated guess will never be good enough since you will always make some wrong guesses. There will always be people who is not happy doing what they are 'best' at and thus will suffer. 
I think that qun is a lot like communism. It builds on an idealistic ideal of everybody being equal and important to the socity, but when it has to be praticed in reality it falls apart and becomes a tyranic regim that in the qun's case is violent as well.

Yes, sometimes the guess will be off. Hence I put "educated guess" in my OP indeed, I didn't want to sound all too brainwashed and rosey-eyed here =) Of course things go wrong. But there's also many who never find a path they're happy walking in Ferelden and other more free lands as well. No system is perfect, sadly.

It is because no system is perfect that we need that freedom. Freedom to make mistakes also means freedom to try and change the mistakes to something better. In an imperfect system with freedom you can change. In a system without freedom you only have acceptance or suffering, and since the system will never be perfect I prefer to have the ability to act outside whatever box I have been placed in, if I feel the need to do so.

[Kidd]

esper wrote...

It is because no system is perfect that we need that freedom. Freedom to make mistakes also means freedom to try and change the mistakes to something better. In an imperfect system with freedom you can change. In a system without freedom you only have acceptance or suffering, and since the system will never be perfect I prefer to have the ability to act outside whatever box I have been placed in, if I feel the need to do so.

A very valid point, and I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure I agree, but it was nevertheless very well put =)

Personally I see no reason why the majority of elves in Kirkwall didn't seek the Qun with qunari right around the corner, for instance. They are free in theory, but in practice the vast majority of them will never get away from that poverty and misery. The Qun would not only take care of them but also allow them to contribute and feel meaningful. Perhaps not all of them would feel like they had found the Holy Grail or anything, but chances are that most would have. Isn't it better to take your chances where you have a big chance - not a guarantee, but a big chance - at feeling meaningful than living in the alienage?

Kind of off topic though, that ^^; Seems few agree with me indeed.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 06 décembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[esper]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

esper wrote...

It is because no system is perfect that we need that freedom. Freedom to make mistakes also means freedom to try and change the mistakes to something better. In an imperfect system with freedom you can change. In a system without freedom you only have acceptance or suffering, and since the system will never be perfect I prefer to have the ability to act outside whatever box I have been placed in, if I feel the need to do so.

A very valid point, and I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure I agree, but it was nevertheless very well put =)

Personally I see no reason why the majority of elves in Kirkwall didn't seek the Qun with qunari right around the corner, for instance. They are free in theory, but in practice the vast majority of them will never get away from that poverty and misery. The Qun would not only take care of them but also allow them to contribute and feel meaningful.

Some elves and poor humans did convert, but ideals aside the more wordly reasons: 
- The majority are Andrastians, to wish the qun are the evil boogie men, second to only the evil Tevinter
- secondly they didn't wanted to lose what little culture they had left
- and finally they had no gurantee that the qun would find a role they wanted.  

Modifié par esper, 06 décembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[Kidd]

Good points about their culture and the Andrastian religion, of course! =) In-world they would indeed be quite prejudiced by their own society against joining what may as well be another world. And what little culture they have left would be swept aside real quick within the Qun as well, no doubt. Didn't think that through properly before I said it =)

[esper]

It is an interesting discussion, no? I am just happy that I can express my self properly in english.

Personally I think that the Kirkwall elves are a little less worse off than the Denerim elves. Everyone in Lowtown is poor as well and there is the Undercity which contains people living in the sewers. So the elves can at least see other people having a bad life too.

I do think that Fenris mentions that some slaves flee to the qun, but in Tevinter the people have grown up with warring with the Qunari, so they have a little less evil 'boogie man' effect on tevinters. In Kirkwall the Qunaries are the big scary unknown,

[Feanor_II]

While I advocate for individual freedom I also think that our society tends to be too individualistic and lacks of colective/social compromise.

[LPPrince]

Hell no.

[blothulfur]

The Qun lives and breathes in my heart, body and soul. Through its teachings I have found my way and now tread the endless path to enlightenment.

It always suprises me that the bas denigrate the Qun by citing their freedom when the kingdoms of Thedas are feudal and every person under the ruler is a slave, with no rights other than what their master allows. The peasents who starve while working the fields of their blubberous masters. The levies who are sent into battle with spear and shield over petty territorial disputes, while their betters watch the slaughter from the rear clad in plate and mail. The lass who lies beaten and bloodied, her maidenhead taken by an arrogant chevalier on a whim. Or the innocent slaves whose very soul is ripped from his body so that the lyrium tainted beasts of Tevinter can achieve congress with their demonic masters.

Where is their freedom and who rebels against their oppression, in truth none of the bas care for they are an evil race of slavers and tyrants who spout the litanies of a false god to justify monstrosity and abomination.

The Qunari come and the wrongdoers shall know their sins are neither forgotten or forgiven, retribution shall be levied upon them.

[Stanley Woo]

This is a reminder that real-world political or religious discussion is not permitted in our community. It's far too easy for someone to take comments a little too personally and start a flame war.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Qun is garbage and it's followers have no will of their own to establish their own lives.

Anyone who needs order imposed on them from the outside is weak. If there's no facility to walk away from a way of thinking or living, then the follower is a slave. The Qun is great of thinking for slaves and cowards. Everything is decided for you!

[Fortlowe]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The Qun is garbage and it's followers have no will of their own to establish their own lives.

Anyone who needs order imposed on them from the outside is weak. If there's no facility to walk away from a way of thinking or living, then the follower is a slave. The Qun is great of thinking for slaves and cowards. Everything is decided for you!

:huh:So it's kinda like work then?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Fortlowe wrote...

:huh:So it's kinda like work then?

You can leave work at any point without being attacked by your coworkers. 

[blothulfur]

We Qunari are free and strong because we impose our order upon the world, the false bidding of emotion and instinct are spurned in favour of logic and rationality. Within our appointed tasks there is no limit to our progression and thus we decide our own fate, unlike the bas whose roles are decided by inbred blood, the deeds of long dead ancestors and the favour of a non existent god. No matter their ability or ambition the vast majority of the bas are bound to the plough until their offspring take their place in the exact same position, wasteful and idiotic.

And if they leave the lands of their masters then they are outlaws and hunted to their deaths, barbaric and evil.

Modifié par blothulfur, 06 décembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[ObserverStatus]

No. There is nothing positive about the Qun, and if you continue to insist that there is, you will wander the void alone in the afterlife, hopeless and forever lost.

[Maria Caliban]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Anyone who needs order imposed on them from the outside is weak.

Why are you typing in English? Language is order a culture imposes on its various members.

The same is true of laws, money, social customs, and moral philosophy. The very fact that you see individuality vs collectivity as a reflection of personal strength is a product of Western cultural indoctrination.

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Of course, the drawback is an obvious lack of freedoms.

And being part of a society that forces others to adopt their religious beliefs through military conflict.

Is the freedom to do the wrong choice and the freedom to fail truly things we want, however?

That's not something I desire but that's not the only freedom the Qun removes.

Is this just my unemployed self seeing roses where there is only mirage, or are there others who feel similarly?

The existence of communist philosophy and politics would suggest that what appeals to you about the Qun is also appealing to others.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 décembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[blothulfur]

Mystical twadlle bobobo, we shall sever the parasitic tendrils with which the fade feasts upon reality, and when we die we shall rot and feed the earth as all do and always have done.

Modifié par blothulfur, 06 décembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[Maria Caliban]

blothulfur wrote...

Mystical twadlle bobobo, we shall sever the parasitic tendrils with which the fade feasts upon reality, and when we die we shall rot and feed the earth as all do and always have done.

As we're doing the role-play thing:

True happiness is found by joining with your spiritual brother or sister. Don't listen to the Chantry's propaganda! Demons are spirits who long to connect with humans and, together, experience a higher reality.

Find your REAL soul-mate through the Fade.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 décembre 2011 - 06:28 .