215 réponses à ce sujet

[vania z]

maxernst wrote...

vania z wrote...

I can do any job great. And so can any human, if he really wishes to .

Any job? Really?  I would suck as an NFL player.

Spend some years doing workout and learning to play and you wont suck:) 

Maria Caliban wrote...

vania z wrote...

I can do any job great. And so can any human, if he really wishes to .

Humans beings have physical, intellectual, and psychological differences that make them more or less suitable for different activities. The ability to be 'great' at any specific activity is not easy, even if you have the right natural inclinations.

The idea that simply *wishing* to be great will lead to greatness is also highly questionable.

The only human I can study in detail is myself. And from myself I learned that humans can do quite a lot of things. What many lack, though, is dedication to the deed. I fully understand that everyone is different, but the top of one's abilities is sky-high. Certanly you can be great at something without becoming the best one at this particular, can you? That does not include people with disabilities, though. With plysical disabilites can archive great results in brain work (example - Stephen Hawking), and with mental disabilities... well... I don't really know. 

[vania z]

Also, I have one question still unanswered. If everyone will be strictly logical and have the same information about hypothetical problem, will everyone come to the same conclusions or not? I'm inclined to say 'yes', but I'm not completely sure. If the answer is yes than everyone can do the same job with the same results but will take different time to finish it depending on many random factors.

[Maria Caliban]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Humans beings have physical, intellectual, and psychological differences that make them more or less suitable for different activities.

That has largely been negated in our world with the development of modern education.

Modern education can turn a non-competitive introvert into an aggressive salesperson?

It can turn someone with poor hand-eye control and spacial awareness into a meticulous clockmaker?

It can turn anyone into a great violinist, painter, or writer?

Modern education must be a massive failure if it has these capabilities yet consistently fails to rewire a student's skills and abilities such that they can be the top of their field. Or maybe, just maybe, there's a whole lot about a person modern education is wholly unable to alter. Heck, if test scores are any indication, modern education can't consistently provide people with the same level of knowledge in mathematics, language, social studies, and general science.

If modern education can do what you say, why is there such a large variance in the IQ levels of people who graduate from high school? The things that test measures are very similar to the aptitudes modern education is designed to convey.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 décembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[vania z]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Modern education can turn a non-competitive introvert into an aggressive salesperson?

It can turn someone with poor hand-eye control and spacial awareness into a meticulous clockmaker?

It can turn anyone into a great violinist, painter, or writer?

Modern education must be a massive failure if it has these capabilities yet consistently fails to rewire a student's skills and abilities such that they can be the top of their field. Or maybe, just maybe, there's a whole lot about a person modern education is wholly unable to alter.

I am non-competitive introvert who is self-employed, which involves sales. And I'm not bad at it - I earn up to 200$ per hour in Russia. I just needed such a job to study in university, so I did it. (this has nothing to do with modern education though).
http://en.wikipedia....Loss_of_hearing he wanted to compose and even after losing hearing he was able to. 

Certainly, everyone can't be best at theirs jobs - there are more people than jobs, but everyone can do any job well, if he really has will to do so. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Maria Caliban wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Humans beings have physical, intellectual, and psychological differences that make them more or less suitable for different activities.

That has largely been negated in our world with the development of modern education.

Modern education can turn a non-competitive introvert into an aggressive salesperson?

It can turn someone with poor hand-eye control and spacial awareness into a meticulous clockmaker?

It can turn anyone into a great violinist, painter, or writer?

If the student wants it badly enough, yes.

Modern education must be a massive failure if it has these capabilities yet consistently fails to rewire a student's skills and abilities such that they can be the top of their field.

The student did not want it badly enough.

Or maybe, just maybe, there's a whole lot about a person modern education is wholly unable to alter. Heck, if test scores are any indication, modern education can't consistently provide people with the same level of knowledge in mathematics, language, social studies, and general science.

Then those people are quitters.  There's no genetic reason needed.   

If modern education can do what you say, why is there such a large variance in the IQ levels of people who graduate from high school? The things that test measures are very similar to the aptitudes modern education is designed to convey.

Some people give a ****.  Some people value education.  Some people don't.  Welcome to freedom, you don't have to give a ****. 

[congealeddgtllvr]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

*snip*

If the student wants it badly enough, yes.

*snip*

The student did not want it badly enough.

*snip*

Then those people are quitters.  There's no genetic reason needed.   

*snip*

Some people give a ****.  Some people value education.  Some people don't.  Welcome to freedom, you don't have to give a ****. 

Are there really people who think like this?  It's possible you might be proof of the failure of modern education.

Look, when you were growing up you just knew some kids weren't going to be nuclear physicists.  It wasn't because they were lazy, it wasn't because they didn't care.  It was because they were stupid.  Your inability to see the reality of the innate differences between human capabilities makes you as much of an ideologue as the Arishok.  

This doesn't even take into account what a person might be happier or feel more fulfilled doing.  There are lots of tests that measure a persons personality to see what types of jobs they might enjoy or excel at.  The Qun's tests are probably just a more extreme version of this.  

People can also be sure they would love doing something and find out they hate it when they get there.  The Qun would possibly reduce this.  Lots of people are sure they are meant to be artists or writers while actually sucking at art and writing.  The Qun would let them know what they were meant to be: plumbers.  This would mean less pretentious losers to deal with.  Really, there are clearly lots of advantages.  

[vania z]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...


Are there really people who think like this?  It's possible you might be proof of the failure of modern education.

Look, when you were growing up you just knew some kids weren't going to be nuclear physicists.  It wasn't because they were lazy, it wasn't because they didn't care.  It was because they were stupid.  .  

People are not inherently stupid. I am (one year left till bachelor degree) nuclear physicits and I tell you - anyone can do that, it they want to. People are smart because they study and work on themselves. To become physicaly strong I exercised regulary for 15 years, I was not born strong. The same with smartness. 

[Addai]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Is the freedom to do the wrong choice and the freedom to fail truly things we want, however?

Yes.

[congealeddgtllvr]

vania z wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...


Are there really people who think like this?  It's possible you might be proof of the failure of modern education.

Look, when you were growing up you just knew some kids weren't going to be nuclear physicists.  It wasn't because they were lazy, it wasn't because they didn't care.  It was because they were stupid.  .  

People are not inherently stupid. I am (one year left till bachelor degree) nuclear physicits and I tell you - anyone can do that, it they want to. People are smart because they study and work on themselves. To become physicaly strong I exercised regulary for 15 years, I was not born strong. The same with smartness. 

I think it's pretty obvious individual people are better wired to do some things than others.  Maybe if human life was endless what you are saying would make sense, but it isn't.  We all only have so much time to become good at things.  So why should the Qun want a kid with less natural prowess than his peers serving in the military when he shows a natural aptitude for smithing?  What I like about the Qun is that it seems to feel that the best way to an efficient society is to maximize personal fulfillment.  It's an interesting concept.

Don't get me wrong, RL history repeatedly favors the "invisible hand".  But Thedas is a fantasy setting.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Anyone else wishing the Qun was real?

No.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 décembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[vania z]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

I think it's pretty obvious individual people are better wired to do some things than others.  Maybe if human life was endless what you are saying would make sense, but it isn't.  We all only have so much time to become good a things.  So why should the Qun want a kid with less natural prowess than his peers serving in the military when he shows a natural aptitude for smithing?  What I like about the Qun is that it seems to feel that the best way to an efficient society is to maximize personal fulfillment.  It's an interesting concept.

Don't get me wrong, RL history repeatedly favors the "invisible hand".  But Thedas is a fantasy setting.  

I won't argue that. I have almost reached my limit in some physical exercises - I get muscle pain for a week and pain in tendons after some one arm chin ups. It seems my body does not like that:D But almost no one even tries to reach their limit. What the Qun can do it to force everyone to work. If I know humans, we don't like to work. We can dream of being great at some job, but to actually do it... no way! 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Are there really people who think like this?  It's possible you might be proof of the failure of modern education.

Ad hominem.    You failed.

People can also be sure they would love doing something and find out they hate it when they get there.  The Qun would possibly reduce this.  Lots of people are sure they are meant to be artists or writers while actually sucking at art and writing.  The Qun would let them know what they were meant to be: plumbers.  This would mean less pretentious losers to deal with.  Really, there are clearly lots of advantages.  

The point of art and writing is to do it an enjoy it.  Anyone who isn't good at art and writing quit doing it.    The qun would be popular with the sort of failure that needs to be told what they are and what to do...  Since the qun is designed for quitters, cowards, and slaves. 

[vania z]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Since the qun is designed for quitters, cowards, and slaves.  

You gave words to my thoughts, thanks. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

I think it's pretty obvious individual people are better wired to do some things than others.  Maybe if human life was endless what you are saying would make sense, but it isn't.  We all only have so much time to become good at things.  So why should the Qun want a kid with less natural prowess than his peers serving in the military when he shows a natural aptitude for smithing?  What I like about the Qun is that it seems to feel that the best way to an efficient society is to maximize personal fulfillment.  It's an interesting concept.

Don't get me wrong, RL history repeatedly favors the "invisible hand".  But Thedas is a fantasy setting.  

Good point!  We only have so much times to become good at things.  What do we become good at?

Things we want to do.  You made my point!

What the qun wants counts for ****.  What the person wants counts for everything.   

[congealeddgtllvr]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

I think it's pretty obvious individual people are better wired to do some things than others.  Maybe if human life was endless what you are saying would make sense, but it isn't.  We all only have so much time to become good at things.  So why should the Qun want a kid with less natural prowess than his peers serving in the military when he shows a natural aptitude for smithing?  What I like about the Qun is that it seems to feel that the best way to an efficient society is to maximize personal fulfillment.  It's an interesting concept.

Don't get me wrong, RL history repeatedly favors the "invisible hand".  But Thedas is a fantasy setting.  

Good point!  We only have so much times to become good at things.  What do we become good at?

Things we want to do.  You made my point!

What the qun wants counts for ****.  What the person wants counts for everything.   

Um, no I didn't.  My point was that, in the example I gave, the Qun would know better how an individual could excel than that individual himself.  He would make a mediocre soldier but a a great blacksmith, potentially.  

Your insistence that what the person wants counts for more is a subjective opinion.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[FaeQueenCory]

It is... Kinda.
Daoism has a LOT of elements of the Qun. And so does Confusianism.
Confusianism is a closer comparison because it is not a religion, but a philosophy. But the language the Qunari uses to refer to the Qun, as if it were a god, is more in line with the language used by Daoists to refer to the Dao.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Um, no I didn't.  My point was that, in the example I gave, the Qun would know better how an individual could excel than that individual himself.  He would make a mediocre soldier but a a great blacksmith, potentially.  

Your insistence that what the person wants counts for more a subjective opinion.  

"We all only have so much time to become good at things."  What do we become good at?  What we enjoy.    What do we choose to do?  What we enjoy.  Ipso facto, what we choose to do, we become good at.

Your insistence that what the qun wants counts at all is a subjective opinion. 

No one is good doing what they hate.  Noone who wants to be a soldier is going to be a good blacksmith.  He might fake it for a while out of fear of the giant sword wielding murder-corps... but resentment will set in.  For example!  Actual slaves.  What they were best at was decided for them based on their behaviors and a little experience.  Some went to the house, some went to the fields, some were used as nannies.  Do you think the ones that were great butlers enjoyed being butlers?  Nope!  They'd rather be free.  Like all humans... they would rather be free.

Anyone who wants to be told what they are good at and what they should be-- anyone who embraces the qun-- is a wretch, a coward, and a failure as a human being.

B)B)

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:38 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

What do we become good at?  What we enjoy.   

Sometimes.  Other times, people remain completely unremarkable at the things they enjoy.  

Noone who wants to be a soldier is going to be a good blacksmith.  

Why not?  Our modern day militaries turn people with health conditions down all the time. Are their lives completely ruined because of it?  Even if it was their dream?  Most of them move on to something else.  The Qun is just a more extreme version of this.  

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

[quote]

Noone who wants to be a soldier is going to be a good blacksmith.  
[/quote]

Why not?  Our modern day militaries turn people with health conditions down all the time. Are their lives completely ruined because of it?  Even if it was their dream?  Most of them move on to something else.  The Qun is just a more extreme version of this.  
[/quote]

The qun doesn't let you choose in the first place.  But more over, once you are something in the qun, you're something forever.  Qun = slavery, qun-luvahs=slaves.

[congealeddgtllvr]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The qun doesn't let you choose in the first place.  But more over, once you are something in the qun, you're something forever.  Qun = slavery, qun-luvahs=slaves.

Elves living under on of the White Divine are free, technically, but free to do what?  Born under the Qun, there is supposedly little they can't potentially do.  I won't even mention the dwarves.  And humans in Thedas live in a feudal setting which has little to nothing to do with freedom.  

[Kidd]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

In the DA world we don't have enough info. How does education work in Qunari society? If an individual outperforms in his originally assigned role, is there a way for him/her to be promoted into a role where his/her talents would be of better use? Are such developments, which benefit the society as a whole, encouraged under the Qun?

Of course I wouldn't know, but I'm guessing they more or less don't have much of a chance to prove they're good at anything else once their path is set. They get extensive testing to see what they are fit doing, and after that they just keep doing their thing. You can rarely show leaders you excel at a certain task by performing another, after all =) It may happen rarely, but I doubt it's anything near considered even "rare."

vania z wrote...

Also, I have one question still unanswered. If everyone will be strictly logical and have the same information about hypothetical problem, will everyone come to the same conclusions or not? I'm inclined to say 'yes', but I'm not completely sure. If the answer is yes than everyone can do the same job with the same results but will take different time to finish it depending on many random factors.

Much doubt they would, considering the philosophical debates I've had with friends over a few things to do with physics, where we obviously educate the others around the table about facts they didn't know about before.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

This doesn't even take into account what a person might be happier or feel more fulfilled doing.  There are lots of tests that measure a persons personality to see what types of jobs they might enjoy or excel at.  The Qun's tests are probably just a more extreme version of this.

I agree. You tend to enjoy things you are good at, in a way simply enjoying something means you will be better at it. I doubt the Qun misses out on that. If a child feels good doing a certain thing during the tests, they will likely fare better than their peers. Thus, the child gets assigned to the proper role. Of course this is just speculation, and I'd love some more information from our dear lead writer

vania z wrote...

People are not inherently stupid. I am (one year left till bachelor degree) nuclear physicits and I tell you - anyone can do that, it they want to. People are smart because they study and work on themselves. To become physicaly strong I exercised regulary for 15 years, I was not born strong. The same with smartness. 

It's easy enough to prove not just anybody can reach any strength physically though. For the easiest example, compare men and women and how our different hormone levels disallow us from reaching the same heights. Personally I've got a hormone disorder which lowers my testosterone levels a whole lot, so I'm incredibly weak. Sure I could probably reach "normal strength" by working out a lot, but I'd never, ever become as strong as my sister could be if she worked out still without supplying extra testosterone.

And each and every person's hormones are different. Not to mention that's just hormones, there are more factors on top of that. The difference between individuals' potential are incredible.

[Lithuasil]

Even leaving that whole free will issue aside - all of your posts assume that the qun *knows*, with absolutely no fail, what role a given individual will excel at. But not only will any test made by individuals have a certain error margin (no possible system is perfect) - we have plenty proof, that the qun job-board ****s up all the time - considering all three examples that we have completely suck at their jobs. The qun assigned a simple minded berserker their high-commander. The qun assigned an arrogant, raving psychotic a field reconaissance agent, despite both being completely unqualified.

So I guess the question, to all those voting 'yes' is; "If you were the most talented in whatever would be the favorite job of yours, but thanks to bureaucratic ****up got assigned to sewer maintenance for the rest of your lives (unless you favor lobotomies) - would that be worth handing all free will over for?"
And if the Answer is still yes, then

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

applies.

[Kidd]

Lithuasil wrote...

Even leaving that whole free will issue aside - all of your posts assume that the qun *knows*, with absolutely no fail, what role a given individual will excel at. But not only will any test made by individuals have a certain error margin (no possible system is perfect)

I already mentioned the testing is "educated guessing" in my OP. Basically, the way I see it, the testing is most likely some kind of extremely more sophisticated version of our local employment office. Considering how far the barbaric kossith have come since converting to the Qun though, I'd say it's slightly unfair to say the system does not at the very least further their society somewhat.