215 réponses à ce sujet

[FrostyLazer]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

In the DA world we don't have enough info. How does education work in Qunari society? If an individual outperforms in his originally assigned role, is there a way for him/her to be promoted into a role where his/her talents would be of better use? Are such developments, which benefit the society as a whole, encouraged under the Qun?

Of course I wouldn't know, but I'm guessing they more or less don't have much of a chance to prove they're good at anything else once their path is set. They get extensive testing to see what they are fit doing, and after that they just keep doing their thing. You can rarely show leaders you excel at a certain task by performing another, after all =) It may happen rarely, but I doubt it's anything near considered even "rare."

In
Redemption it is mentioned that you can be 'demoted'. Talis say's
that she was/is not talis anymore after failing at her tasks to many
times. The task she is on in redemption is to get back promoted to
talis. This suggests that the Qun doesn’t only has testing, but
also evaluates your performance and gives you a roll accordingly

[Lithuasil]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I already mentioned the testing is "educated guessing" in my OP. Basically, the way I see it, the testing is most likely some kind of extremely more sophisticated version of our local employment office. Considering how far the barbaric kossith have come since converting to the Qun though, I'd say it's slightly unfair to say the system does not at the very least further their society somewhat.

You've never had to deal with the employment office, did you? Come to think of it, that IS a pretty good analogy   

Honestly, I find it hard to judge here considering the massive inconsistencies. Any society that has tried to work in similar ways (see UDSSR) in reality, has been proven to lag behind in scientific and social progress, due to being far  too static to adapt accordingly. And appropriately, all that we see of the Qunari in the games, is exactly the kind of behavior one would expect from a hypocritic pseudo-egalitarian slave state.

And yet, we're told (told mind you, never shown) about all those miraculous technologies and social advantages the kossith supposedly possess - when in person, they appear to be as tribal and barbaric as they look (with the extra bit of brainwashing here and there) and seem to have mastered no technology more sophisticated then warpaint and javelins. 

At this point, I'm much more inclined to believe, that all that magictech they're hiding is 
a) In-game Propaganda
a weak writers ass-pull to make them look more threatening
c) given to them by some more competent third faction using  them as unwitting pawns
Since seriously - I find it hard to believe, that a society whos prime characteristic, prime selling point even to it's own slaves, is stability (and lack of flexibility) is supposed to be the most advanced civilization of Thedas, entirely off-screen.

[Wulfram]

IIRC a dev post said that there is promotion. The role you are assigned early on and cannot change is a broad one - like Soldier, Priest, Farmer, Merchant - not a specific rank.

We haven't really seen any indications of Qunari technology advancing that I'm aware - they arrived in Thedas with gunpowder. They may have originally acquired it from others, or developed it before they became Qunari.

[Kidd]

Lithuasil wrote...

You've never had to deal with the employment office, did you? Come to think of it, that IS a pretty good analogy  

I sadly have, hence why I figure a culture where that has such an important role would have a better employment office system

Lithuasil wrote...

Since seriously - I find it hard to believe, that a society whos prime characteristic, prime selling point even to it's own slaves, is stability (and lack of flexibility) is supposed to be the most advanced civilization of Thedas, entirely off-screen.

It's not that odd. Science always has one major issue holding it back; funding. You have to sell your idea to people, and generally just tinkering about somewhat aimlessly will never be a way you find anything out. Whereas in the Qun, if they have scientists (I kinda assume they do, considering gaatlok and all), these scientists are decided to be just that because they excel at it. They would not have any problem with funding, instead they could focus every minute of every day to the improvement of their society.

[Killjoy Cutter]

What makes the Qun as practiced repugnant and immoral is the way it is forced on others. If the Qun itself actually demands that it be forced on others, then the Qun itself is a repugnant and immoral belief system at its core.

[blothulfur]

Like the slavery of the vast majority of the bas in Ferelden is forced upon them by their blubberous, inbred and corrupt "betters". That is immoral and repugnant, but the soft philosophers of Thedas leeching from the working mans sweat never trouble themselves over his needs.

No, the Qun offers the freedom to excel to the limits of ability and ambition, the lowest may rule in the triumvirate one day if they apply themselves. Whereas the bas shackle their brethren to the plough and declare themselves better because of inbred blood and the favour of non existent gods.

And so Thedas regresses further into barbarity every day, the craftings of ancient days supercedes your modern accomplishments, your corrupt mages in their towers of decadence deal with demons in their never ending greed and stupidity, your nobles instigate wars over trifles and then waste the lives of innocents. Humans are a despicable and evil race, championing morally bankrupt feudal slave kingdoms.

We came to Thedas three centuries past with nothing, since then we have thrown back the united powers of your lands and shaken the very walls of Minrathous with our cannon, we have become strong and advanced morally, scientifically and socially. The bas rulers have in those three centuries neither sought to improve themselves or the lot of their people, they have merely continued with the illogical and wasteful policies of feudal idiocy.

Sickening, weak, depraved wastes of life.

[Gemini1179]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

It seems like a great society in so many ways. Not perfect, but no society is. Instead of everyone fending for themselves and trying to find happiness on their own, they receive their callings from a higher ranking power. Through testing the people, the Qun can make very educated guesses at what you would do a good job spending your time with. This means everyone gets to be productive and feel like part of something greater than themselves, each and every person important as cogs in a wheel of society. Less people would feel lost and could instead focus on doing what they do best.

Of course, the drawback is an obvious lack of freedoms. Is the freedom to do the wrong choice and the freedom to fail truly things we want, however? I feel very compelled by the Qun myself and would definitely look into them if their society was real. Is this just my unemployed self seeing roses where there is only mirage, or are there others who feel similarly?

The Qun is similar to the ideas in Plato's "Republic". Basically, he said that everyone should be doing the job they have the most aptitude for. No society will ever be perfect, but some of our greatest minds have been those who have gone against the grain. Uncertainty can be a great motivator. Certainty can lead to apathy. As with everything else, some things are more suited to some people rather than others. Me? I'm a Jack of all Trades kind of guy. I prefer to dabble in as many things as I can for the experience. For me, that's what life is all about.

[Killjoy Cutter]

blothulfur wrote...

Like the slavery of the vast majority of the bas in Ferelden is forced upon them by their blubberous, inbred and corrupt "betters". That is immoral and repugnant, but the soft philosophers of Thedas leeching from the working mans sweat never trouble themselves over his needs.

No, the Qun offers the freedom to excel to the limits of ability and ambition, the lowest may rule in the triumvirate one day if they apply themselves. Whereas the bas shackle their brethren to the plough and declare themselves better because of inbred blood and the favour of non existent gods.

And so Thedas regresses further into barbarity every day, the craftings of ancient days supercedes your modern accomplishments, your corrupt mages in their towers of decadence deal with demons in their never ending greed and stupidity, your nobles instigate wars over trifles and then waste the lives of innocents. Humans are a despicable and evil race, championing morally bankrupt feudal slave kingdoms.

We came to Thedas three centuries past with nothing, since then we have thrown back the united powers of your lands and shaken the very walls of Minrathous with our cannon, we have become strong and advanced morally, scientifically and socially. The bas rulers have in those three centuries neither sought to improve themselves or the lot of their people, they have merely continued with the illogical and wasteful policies of feudal idiocy.

Sickening, weak, depraved wastes of life.

The various polities of Thedas all have, to varying degrees, the faults of feudal or otherwise plutocratic systems.  No one is going to dispute that. 

However, arguing that the quasi-Confucian/state-Communist system of the Qun has any greater freedom than non-Qun Thedas as a whole is a non-starter.  Systems such as the Qun historically disregard individual liberty not only as unimportant, but outright meaningless and nonsensical. 

The faults of system X are never a supporting argument for ignoring the faults of system Y. 

And arguing as if you really believe, or in character, refering to non-Qun Thedans as "bas" and refering to other posters in the second person as if they were "non-believers" pretty much ruins your credibility in a general out-of-character discussion thread. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 09 décembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Gemini1179 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

It seems like a great society in so many ways. Not perfect, but no society is. Instead of everyone fending for themselves and trying to find happiness on their own, they receive their callings from a higher ranking power. Through testing the people, the Qun can make very educated guesses at what you would do a good job spending your time with. This means everyone gets to be productive and feel like part of something greater than themselves, each and every person important as cogs in a wheel of society. Less people would feel lost and could instead focus on doing what they do best.

Of course, the drawback is an obvious lack of freedoms. Is the freedom to do the wrong choice and the freedom to fail truly things we want, however? I feel very compelled by the Qun myself and would definitely look into them if their society was real. Is this just my unemployed self seeing roses where there is only mirage, or are there others who feel similarly?

The Qun is similar to the ideas in Plato's "Republic". Basically, he said that everyone should be doing the job they have the most aptitude for. No society will ever be perfect, but some of our greatest minds have been those who have gone against the grain. Uncertainty can be a great motivator. Certainty can lead to apathy. As with everything else, some things are more suited to some people rather than others. Me? I'm a Jack of all Trades kind of guy. I prefer to dabble in as many things as I can for the experience. For me, that's what life is all about.

Plato's system has major faults.  

What if someone does not wish to do, and derives no satisfaction from, that which they "have the most aptitude for"? 

What if there are 100 people whose greatest aptitude is doing X, but there's only room for 50 people to do X without wasting resources and their efforts?

[Lithuasil]

FrostyLazer wrote...

In
Redemption it is mentioned that you can be 'demoted'. Talis say's
that she was/is not talis anymore after failing at her tasks to many
times. The task she is on in redemption is to get back promoted to
talis. This suggests that the Qun doesn’t only has testing, but
also evaluates your performance and gives you a roll accordingly

 
I didn't even see this - it's probably for the best, if we assume everything Felicia Day touched to be awful fanfiction, rather then canon.
Otherwise, that makes it even worse, and makes for yet anoter *massive* inconsistency. As mentioned, the only reason why anyone could possibly be insane enough to submit to the qun, is the stability and safety it claims to offer. But if Jobs are handed out via promotion (rather then picking someone who's best suited for a higher position and educating them specifically to that end) - that means everyone in the qun is completely at the mercy of those who decide, worse then the peasants of thedas are.
You're a Sten, but accidentally stepped on a tamarassans foot? Well tough luck, the qun has reconsidered that you're best suited to work the mines!  - also; All that competition in modern companies? Imagine that, only without all the safety measures and protections modern society provides to the employee.
Essentially, the ability to demote/promote people, even to completely different fields as in Tallis case, turns the Qun into a company running on cartoon logic, where the boss has divine right to decide for everyone, and anyone daring to speak up immediately gets brainwashed or murdered.

[blothulfur]

I truly find it staggering that no one can grasp my all too obvious point, nothing can be judged in isolation, therefore the feudal systems and their illogical maintenance of a ruling class decided not on ability or deeds but by their heritage or faith in a non existent deity is in comparison to the qunari an evil and oppressive system.

This is not a case of moral subjectivity. Qunari after being reared until twelve years of age by the tamassran, when they presumably begin to experience puberty, are assigned junior roles in either the body, mind or soul of the Qun (army, craft or priesthood) and are then free to advance as far as their ability and ambition allows. Only a moron would think that an Arishok gained the position at twelve years of age. Compared to the feudal system of class being decided before birth this is clearly a fairer and better system of governance and advancement similar to the military system of mission command.

Under the Qun there is probably more individual liberty than the vast majority of thedas' slaves can ever enjoy, within each of the three aspects of the Qun there will be many different areas of expertise for a qunari to focus upon. An ashaad scout will be prized for his initiative and curiosity while a karashok would be expected to thrive on orders and discipline, both roles lie in the antaam and are almost diametrically opposed, thus many role allow for many different personalities.

Does the tamassran and the ben hassrath of the priesthood maybe have an unequal footing in the triumvirate? Despite the qunari claims of equality between the body, mind and soul I think they do, simply because of their roles in qunari society. However one can see by the amount of initiative with which the Arishok acts in pursuit of the tome of Koslun that the antaam also has great significance in the triumvirate.

Maintaining a role in discussions of the qunari is easily answered upon the first page where Stan warrns us to stay away from political discourse, due to its broadly similar nature to many real life systems discussion of the Qun can quickly be swept up in real life examples which would be counter productive to the threads intent. And it's a laugh, which can always be exploited by mentions of cookies or short negative answers when the discourse becomes too heated.

In summation, the Qun offers many benefits that the feudal slave kingdoms do not, this is not subjective but fact. The fact of their scientific, social and military superiority mandates that this system of governance would be very attractive to the common man of Thedas. Rather than a mage rebellion, a more interesting field of study that would really shake and shape this world would be a far more justified peasants rebellion.

[Gemini1179]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


Plato's system has major faults.  

What if someone does not wish to do, and derives no satisfaction from, that which they "have the most aptitude for"? 

What if there are 100 people whose greatest aptitude is doing X, but there's only room for 50 people to do X without wasting resources and their efforts?

That was kind of my point. I just didn't want to get into it.

[Quething]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

That is a fact. But usually and easily averted, since most posters here will compare the Qunari system to a functional democracy in 21st century Earth (e.g. Switzerland, Japan, Canada) instead of to comparable political entities in Thedas.

You mean the ones based on and informed by the morals of 21s century Earth democracies?

I still reject this notion that the Qun actually factually places people where they're most apt and those people are allowed to freely excel within their spheres. It's demonstrably false. If it were true, the Qun would potentially hold some appeal and have some merit over the Ferelden or Free Marches systems we see. But it's not. If you are born a mage, you are encouraged not to excel. At swordpoint. Even in the Circle, people like Wynne and Bethany are able to exercise their magic to its full potential. A Saarebas, not so much. And look at Hawke. The Qunari think she's best suited to a leadership role. Well... Hawke can be a mage. But a Saarebas cannot be a leader. If mage!Hawke were a Qunari she wouldn't be placed in the role she's proven most suited to.

Don't even start me on the gender thing.

[Lithuasil]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Tallis sucked so she was demoted. She explained that all her actions in MotA were not from any directive of the Qun, but are of a "personal" nature. Personally, I won't count her as Qunari. She is no more Qunari than Rodrigo Borgia is Christian or Peter Pettigrew is Gryffindor.

As I said myself - Tallis is 100% walking "but I want it so" lorebreak ™. As I elaborated - it's an act in favor of the qun to ignore both her, and her demotion.

I (and many others) find him profound and eloquent. And he's actually extraordinarily good at his job. He had a very small army that was stranded for years and short on supplies, and yet crushed the supposed Templar stronghold in the Free Marches overnight. And (humanitarianly) without using any of their explosives or nerve gas. His only mistake was to duel Hawke (which may or may not occur depending on the player's choice). Despite that, I still consider him the most effective (and one of the most charismatic) character in DA2. Not to mention he's a very effective warrior in combat.

Why do you say he's simple minded and completely unqualified? That to me is the opposite of what is true.

Up to the point where he throws a hissy fit and goes into roid rage, I'd give him that he acts with relative cunning, to the point of fooling even many players. While his dirty little tricks (see sacrificing his delegation to a publicity stunt / tricking a fanatic into releasing poison gas on innocents) render his blurp about honor completely hypocritical, as far as backhanded trickery goes they're competently executed.
Charisma... no. All he does in interactions with the player, is recite his precious philosophy, in blatant disregard of hawke or the surroundings. He's stoic, not charismatic.

Then the uprising happens.
Now mind you - Kirkwall has no standing army. And both the mages, and the templars are garrisoned in the gallows - on the other side of an almost half a mile wide body of water with no bridge in sight.  Between realizing something is wrong, getting organized, armed, deploying mages that are deemed fit for battle etc - we have to assume a good 1-2 hours of reaction time, at best. (or in game terms - when the arishok falls, and meredith barges in with reenforcements - that's when the templars have rallied)
By that time, the battle is over. 
So on one hand, we have: Several hundred battle-hardened, eight foot tall supersoldiers and a sizeable amount of fanatic converts, armed to the teeth, with years to plan their attack, inside the cities walls, with all possible elements of surprise on their hands.
On the other hand, we have confused civilians, and the local nigh****ch. The city guards aren't soldiers - they're there capture thiefs, and don't even manage that. 
And in a feat of truly Little big Horn-esue idiocy, the Qunari are utterly walked over, by a handful of armed civilians, and an assortion of "whatever mages and templars happened to be on leave, shopping at the time". (they do manage to torch a few houses though, and even defeat some city guards and unarmed civilians - with roughly the same amount of finesse and civility that the darkspawn had in Denerim, but far less success)

So after all that, the Arishok, full of confidence, gets confronted in the keep - and realizes that his last line of defense has been breached. He knows or at least must assume he's lost the battle at this point. 
And THAT is when he wants to end things "civilized and honorable", by challenging a human to a fair duel, as a nine-foot monter (lol). He does this, purely because he knows, that honor on the human side is his only chance to get out of things, or at least get what's left of his forces out of things. Back when he had the upper hand, his interest in single combat was so great, he had his men throw spears at hawke, from above.

So yes - perhaps he's not completely simple minded. Imho, he's on an Earl Howe level of villainy - a slimy, lying, backstabbing douchebag, much more violent then smart, but with some cunning in him none the less. The main difference being, that he's a lot more hypocritical then Howe ever was. And while he may make an excellent qunari politician, for all I know - his military competence seems to have sailed off on the same boat as Varrics Humility and Isabellas subtlety.

[Lithuasil]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Ha! We agree in essence then. I subscribe to very few morals but I get what you're saying. And I also think Varric is actually quite humble (he is as awesome, if not more awesome, than he says).

The question isn't what morals I do or do not subscribe to here - the (for this thread) relevant point is that he's archetypical for the qun in that he constantly talks about honor and ideals to lure people into the qunari brand of slavery - all while employing the same, if not a greater level of pragmatism that he berates the thedasian politicians for.

As for how heroic Hawke and Company are - No, I don't think they butchered the entire qunari force - the truth of the matter (how I see it) the arishok simply spread his forces far too thin, to the point where the occasional civilian resistance (that we see on the sidelines) bled his forces out. In other words, rather then acting sensible and gathering his forces in the keep, with his hostages - he went straight to torching and pillaging the place, and payed the price for not being a very good strategist.

Why he gets to walk away - I honestly don't know, though I've never personally seen that option (and get told that the templars mopped up what resistance they found outside the keep)

[Xilizhra]

The most attractive thing about the Qun for me is that they are concerned with the present world and present life. There is no false promise of reward or afterlife to delude the ignorant masses, nor fictional deities for the selfishly ambitious to use as shields or puppets. The Qun is about how to make the actual lives of the actual people better. They are concerned with the right issues, which alone makes them uniquely (unique in Thedas) worthy of respect, even if you argue that their approach is wrong.

True, but in a strange sort of way it goes too far and thus right into another area of superstition. The qunari are basically idolaters, in that they believe that one's tool is one's soul and that they're bereft of honor (a word that is used by the sword collector in Act 3) if lost. They may focus their goals on this world, but their means are frequently not based on fact.

[Lithuasil]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

IIRC he never uses the word "honor" once in his speech. Nor does he ever berates others of pragmatism. In fact it's the opposite: He accuses existing social and political structures in Thedas as being practically ineffective ("no order, no goal" "how can you allow this chaos to continue"). From his dialogues, I never got the sense that he's trying to establish that he and the Qunari are more honorable or more noble or more idealistic than I am. Instead, I feel he's trying to argue that his way of doing things will lead to better practical results for society as a whole.

The most attractive thing about the Qun for me is that they are concerned with the present world and present life. There is no false promise of reward or afterlife to delude the ignorant masses, nor fictional deities for the selfishly ambitious to use as shields or puppets. The Qun is about how to make the actual lives of the actual people better. They are concerned with the right issues, which alone makes them uniquely (unique in Thedas) worthy of respect, even if you argue that their approach is wrong.

Possibly he never speaks of honor himself - (the people talking about him / describing the qun most certainly do, most of the time). At any rate, I'm fairly sure he paints the qun as morally superior.

But in the second paragraph of your post, you fall for the exact same fallacy, on a different level - that's what I've been trying to highlight. The Qun isn't concerned with equality, or with making the lives of it's people better - just like all the other societies in thedas, the qun opresses is subjects. Like any other society, wealth, property and freedom are distributed by rank.
Instead of offering you the hope to pass on to the golden city of the maker, the qun offers you the illusion equality and purpose. It's exactly the same tactic, it's the same misuse of fancy-talk, to have people surrender themselves. With a different fictional deity to further the leading castes goals, maybe one you personally find more appealing then the maker - but the same kind of lies, none the less.

Modifié par Lithuasil, 10 décembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Lithuasil]

IonlySignIn wrote...
You can say the Qunari is good or bad, but at least acknowledge that they are different. To equate them in any way with the other oppressive societies in Thedas is plainly ignoring the facts and just projecting your own preconceptions and generalizations.

They are different sure, but nowhere as much as you think - the arishok has plenty of luxury and freedom. He gets fancy armor and ornamented weaponry, and even golden trinkets (for which the qun should have no use, according to its philosophy) - he would go back, to the life that is probably much more comfortable, in Par Vollen. But he can't, because he's lost the book.
(that's where you fall for another fallacy by the way - you they want the book back as to not dampen their morale - but if the qun was anywhere as enlightened as you claim, how would a book that's been copied to hell and back be worth all that trouble - and why would it dampen morale in the first place, just by falling into tevinter hands. There's no reason, unless there's religious devotion involved, meaning the Arishok neglects all his duties for years, breaks the peace, and torches a city... to get a fancy bible copy back. Enlightend and progressive people indeed.)

The point being - the Arishok can't go back without the book - he's the equivalent of an orlesian noble fallen from grace - and he's willing to feed every single of his soldiers (and all the converts) to a meatgrinder, just to get it back.

[Lithuasil]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You're from Sweden, no? That's not very far from Denmark. I heard the head of the statue of The Little Mermaid in Copenhagen was stolen quite a few times. Why would the Danish government spend tax payer money to try to get it back then? It's just a piece of bronze, right? There's no religious significance (as far as I am aware, there is no cult of Andersen or The Little Mermaid) to it, right?

And Scandinavia is considered the most enlightened and progressive place on earth in 2011, right? Could you explain that?

I live here, I'm not from here. And as someone who's also lived in Denmark, I'd never call that place progressive, and would consider the occurence sufficiently explained by "well, they're danes".

And while the way that smaller countries tend to revere the one or two half-way important people they produce, there's a question of adequacy. Could the Arishok send a few ben-hasserath agents to get his book back, if it had some sentimental value? Sure he could, unless he was a leading figure of a society obsessed with efficiency   

On the other hand - if the thief of the statue hid in Iran, would the danish government occupy teheran, and eventually declare war? Probably not.