215 réponses à ce sujet

[blothulfur]

In comparison to our world, the Qun is brutally restrictive and focused on what must be for the greater good to the detriment of personal freedoms. However in the quasi medieval world of Thedas it is one of the only societies with an active interest in the general well being and safety of the majority, your fate in the feudal kingdoms or worse Tevinter would be more than likely that of a slave forced to obey your betters 'til death, due to rigid class barriers supported by church and state.

Qaamek is used as a punishment for the most brutal of crimes, and thereafter the criminal may serve society and thus undo the evil of his crimes. Obviously this is preferable to the barbaric slaughter or torture of wrongdoers which is the province of the truly despicable.

The lyrium tainted saarebas, a tiny fraction of the population pose a terrible danger to the vast majority and thus are given the option of an honourable death or the Arvaraad's leash. Just as we do not allow the rabid or criminally insane to run free in our society, so the Qunari do not place innocent lives at risk.

Vashoth are free to leave Qunandar if they are judged to pose no risk to the outside world, but they are not permitted to remain and weaken the body, mind and soul of the Qun. They are not suffered to live amongst the Qunari if they return or prove themselves a danger in their new lives in Thedas.

I'd rather be born in Par Vollen and allowed to excel according to the limits of my ability and ambition, and follow leaders who have gained their positions in a similar manner rather than be doomed to starve working my fingers to the bone on a nobles land because I am judged to have lesser blood and am not favoured by a non existent god. The fate of slaves in the imperium, alienage elves or the dwarven casteless need not even be mentioned.

The Qunari are through their focused pursuit of what must be trailblazing many social innovations in Thedas, they cannot be judged in isolation from the cultures with which they compete. If it existed in our world it might well have softened in the intervening years into the core of a self improving ideology (though not practised by a species of bronze skinned alien giants), that is not evil in any way or form.

[bEVEsthda]

I don't think Godwood sat through philosphy 101, actually.

And yes the determinist baloney is baloney. Not speaking for Godwood, but I suspect that what he does here, is that he removes himself from the realm, context, (which is ofc our minds) where concepts such as free will have a meaning. The determinist then assumes that he can claim free will doesn't exist, because our actions are supposed to "only" be the outcome of a physical process. He's wrong of course. That it's the result of a process doesn't preclude free will.

It's also easy to fall into the mind trap that the word "deterministic" itself offers. This term, together with equally misleading term "chaotic" is often claimed to describe certain complex procedures which in reality are exactly organized and utterly unpredictable. In reality, deterministic and chaotic are not descriptive. They are just definitions which are used for those things (exactly organized and utterly unpredictable) for historical/ideological reasons.

In this case, it helps to know that in the case of the process of our mind, "deterministic" no longer yields the properties we are maybe used to assume. Like deterministic do as we use it in engineering or validating scientific observations.

There is only one single process which will yield the unique result of your "free will's" decision. And that is precisely that decision, at that time, following the exact history of our entire universe since... well, actually probably before Big Bang, since BB do not any longer seem to be the beginning, and itself depends on conditions... i.e. that one single process is your free will. And that process can't ever be duplicated. Not even by your own mind, at any other time and place.
Anyway, the decision of free will cannot be determined or predicted, not even with exact knowledge about the procedure, because infinitely small factors will affect it. There is no way to duplicate it. From any other view than the own free will's decisions, at that exact time, at that exact place, the outcome is guaranteed to be unpredictable. We can guess, maybe even make good guesses, but that's not the same thing.

Thus the assertion, that we don't possess free will, must be complete nonsense. Of course the decision is the result of a process. Of course it is! But so is the "free will". The same process. Either we are in a frame where the concept "free will" has a meaning, and then we have it, or we are in a frame where "free will" lacks meaning, and then you can't say that we don't have it, because such a statement will be meaningless.

[Plaintiff]

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And because it doesn't happen to me, I should ignore this gross abuse of others? It's called empathy, look it up. I'm well aware I wouldn't have to suffer it personally, my meaning should be clear to anyone with half a brain.

That's a silly argument. The Qunari sew a mages mouth shut to prevent them from using magic to attack others. As far as we know, that is the only reason they sew a person's mouth shut. As there are no mages in real life, a real life Qun would not have such a practice.

The question is "What if the Qun was real" not "What if only parts of the Qun that could reasonably be applied to real life were real". The Qun does not allow you to pick and choose; it's either in the Qun or it isn't. Whether or not mages really exist is irrelevent, because the Qun believes in them and the Qun dictates a specific way of dealing with them.

[Kidd]

Plaintiff wrote...

The question is "What if the Qun was real" not "What if only parts of the Qun that could reasonably be applied to real life were real". The Qun does not allow you to pick and choose; it's either in the Qun or it isn't. Whether or not mages really exist is irrelevent, because the Qun believes in them and the Qun dictates a specific way of dealing with them.

Well sure. I don't think anyone will be harmed by such a rule though, since it's been a long time since I saw someone casting Tempest irl. And I don't mean that in such a crude a tone as it sounds like. Mages don't exist, thus no mages will be hurt, regardless of what the Qun may believe should be done to them.

[Zanallen]

Plaintiff wrote...

The question is "What if the Qun was real" not "What if only parts of the Qun that could reasonably be applied to real life were real". The Qun does not allow you to pick and choose; it's either in the Qun or it isn't. Whether or not mages really exist is irrelevent, because the Qun believes in them and the Qun dictates a specific way of dealing with them.

But you have to adjust the Qun to the real world. Otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.

[Sylvianus]

Zanallen wrote...

That's a silly argument. The Qunari sew a mages mouth shut to prevent them from using magic to attack others. As far as we know, that is the only reason they sew a person's mouth shut. As there are no mages in real life, a real life Qun would not have such a practice.

You have to adjust the Qun to the real world. Otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.

This...

As far as I am concerned, I always said that I didn't like the Qun, but I agree.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[GodWood]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Oh look, a determinist, how quaint.

OK, genius, if there's no such thing as free will, how will telling him to "think harder" change anything?  If you were right, he'd always come to the same conclusion no matter what you say.

I.... really don't know how to respond to this.
People lacking free will does not preclude them from coming to a different conclusion after some reflection.

TheJediSaint wrote...
Godwood, please tell the "previous conditions" that govern your will to spare us the determinist baloney, no one cares that you sat through philosophy 101.

I did not sit through philosophy 101. I'm an autodidact.
Curious, why the hostility? 

So rather than explaining to us that we dont have free will, how about instead you (or the "previous conditions" that control you) please explain to us the pros or cons of the Qun.

Why?

[Wittand25]

Zanallen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The question is "What if the Qun was real" not "What if only parts of the Qun that could reasonably be applied to real life were real". The Qun does not allow you to pick and choose; it's either in the Qun or it isn't. Whether or not mages really exist is irrelevent, because the Qun believes in them and the Qun dictates a specific way of dealing with them.

But you have to adjust the Qun to the real world. Otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.

Let´s see that leaves:
indoctrination at an early age,
asigment of jobs/people/production/everything else according to premade plans,
death penalty for those who disagree with said premade plans.

That somehow does not seem like a place where I would want to raise my kids in (not that one would have that chance under the Qun). Not that the rest of Thedas is much better, but compared to life in todays western cultures the Qun is absolutly horrible and undefendable and can best be compared to fashist states or fanatic cults.

[Plaintiff]

simfamSP wrote...
The Qunari seem contempt, happy, at peace with their way of life. Comparing it to a fanatic cults and facist states is quite narrow minded and typically western.

They aren't allowed to be discontent. Qunari are, by definition, happy to live under the Qun. If you aren't happy, you aren't Qunari. However, plenty of people are obviously unhappy with it, or there wouldn't be any Tal-Vashoth.

Our quality of life varies greatly to theirs, but looking at it from a wider prespective it's easy to say that non are 'greater' than the other. The Qun are what they are, they wish to stay so let them be.

The problem is that a major tenet of the Qnari philosophy is the violent subjugation and conversion of everyone outside the Qun. It is impossible for the Qunari to coexist peacefully with other belief systems, the Qun simply doesn't allow it. They make no secret of the fact that their long-term plan is to invade the rest of Thedas. Eventually, the other nations of Thedas will be forced to eliminate the Qunari out of self-defense

Remember the Arishok's speech? They see different cultures flawed and corrupt (and in some ways he was right.) The Qunari might resemble communism, but it doesn't mean it's led under Stalin does it?

And a culture that has to kill or chemically remove the free will of dissenters isn't flawed?

[Plaintiff]

simfamSP wrote...
*snip*

I'm all for religious and cultural understanding. The problem is that understanding the Qun doesn't make it any less terrible. And since the Qun itself doesn't have any tolerance or understanding for other cultures, trying to understand it is ultimately futile.

As for its flaws; well, it's obviously a tyrannical, oppressive dictatorship. Some people might be happy to live in it. Some people were happy to live in Stalinist Russia and probably some people in North Korea are happy, but it doesn't change the fact that the system works on a basis of oppression.

Secondly, the Qun is rigid and unbending. It doesn't leave room for adaptation, change or growth and as a result will eventually stagnate and die.

[OldMan91]

Yes... but to them, no. I respect that. You see where I'm getting at? Of course I see their way of life as 'flawed' but only because it's different to mine. I've been brainwashed into this Western European lifestyle, I know no other way of life. But it doesn't mean I don't understand others too, e.g Morocco.

Brainwashed isn't the right word to use (it implies malicious intent on part of our parents, school or society), since we are products of our environment. We grow up according to the values, symbols, rituals or ideas of our community or society. There is nothing wrong with that, nor does it make any argument stating that the Qun is flawed objectively or subjectively incorrect. Certainly, it means that we may be biased, but that does not diminish the value of the argument itself: the Qun is after all a fictional all-encompassing religion/way of life, based on various real world ideas.

You must also remember that people don't have a problem with the collectivist nature of the society, but rather with the political-social organization of the state. There are plenty of collectivist cultures in the real world, many of them adopting Western political models with their own unique cultural characteristics. Couldn't the same be done with a nation like the Qun? Must their society be so strictly stratified? I certainly wouldn't want them to adopt an Orlesian absolutist model or a Ferelden feudal structure, as they are really no better than the Qun.

This is a reason why, to me, mages are the most revolutionary individuals in Thedas. They are the most well learned and educated members of society, having access to vast amounts of knowledge. including history, sciences and politics. Support for magi doesn't rely solely on emotional indignation, but on the realization that they are really the most likely members of Thedas capable of producing real tangible social progress.

Modifié par OldMan91, 15 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Plaintiff wrote...

simfamSP wrote...
*snip*

I'm all for religious and cultural understanding. The problem is that understanding the Qun doesn't make it any less terrible. And since the Qun itself doesn't have any tolerance or understanding for other cultures, trying to understand it is ultimately futile.

As for its flaws; well, it's obviously a tyrannical, oppressive dictatorship. Some people might be happy to live in it. Some people were happy to live in Stalinist Russia and probably some people in North Korea are happy, but it doesn't change the fact that the system works on a basis of oppression.

Secondly, the Qun is rigid and unbending. It doesn't leave room for adaptation, change or growth and as a result will eventually stagnate and die.

Agreed.

1) Understanding and tolerance must be mutual. 

2) Despite what some would claim, not all cultures are equal, or valid, or worth tolerance.  Cultures that enshrine bigotry, sexism, abuse, etc, should be treated with all the revulsion and disdain they deserve.

[blothulfur]

I fail to see where this idea that the Qun is rigid and unbending originates from, The Qunari are the only civilisation on Thedas who are actively pursuing new knowledge and trying to better the lot of their people rather than relying upon the same wasteful and repressive idiocy of class and spiritual superiority.

This is as the Qun demands, that all tread the path to enlightenment and seek to become the best that they can be. Even Sten in origins approves of the wardens badgering if he admits he is seeking knowledge and thus trying to better himself. This is the reason why the Qunari have such great social mobility and leadership, they are not inbreds "born to rule", they have proven themselves the right people for the right position.

As for spreading the Qun to all corners of the world, this is to be applauded. Firstly they have shown that they will still abide by moral guidelines in pursuing this goal, as they proved when at the zenith of the exalted march against them they withdrew to spare the innocent converts from the torture and slaughter being meted out against them by the Andrastian nations, who will not rest until their false gods chant is sung from all corners of the world.

Secondly their society is clearly far less opressive and dictatorial than the feudal slave states of Thedas, there are no slaves and every man or woman is judged on their ability and ambition rather than inbred blood and false divine favour. For the evil nobility of Thedas it would be a dark day but for the majority whom all governments should represent it would be the dawn of freedom, betterment and a chance to escape the wasteful restrictions of class and faith.

Anaan esaam Qun.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Objectively, the Qun's "moral guidelines" include conquest, slaughter, summary execution, sexism, slavery (yes, slavery, stop pretending otherwise), and the "choice" between between conversion, death, or lobotomy.

The only ways to escape your assigned role, no matter how miserable or misplaced you feel, are death or outright rebellion. The Qun has no room for questions, no room for doubt, no room for misfits, and no room for compromise.

The core of your argument for the Qun is that it's "not the other system" -- and that's damning in and of itself. If your neighbor is a serial rapist, that's not a moral or legal defense of your own murder spree, even if he happened to be one of your victims -- the rest were still innocent people.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 décembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[blothulfur]

No, as I said before Killjoy i'm not espousing moral subjectivity, the Qun clearly represents a better life for the vast majority of people in Thedas not a lesser evil. They develop weapons to win wars quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible, they implement intelligence work and undermine the slavemaster kings influence so that conquests may be made without the wastefulness of prolonged war.

You have a role assigned to you at the age of twelve, body, mind or soul of the Qun. Within those groups are many different roles and positions which can suit your individual skillset and once again this is infinitely superior to the vast majority of the peasentry who are born to a class and die in it. their whole lives spent at the mercy of fat inbred slavers.

The Qun has room for all things, and all peoples. It's followers are rational and caring, scorning the petty vitriolic outbursts of others who are outraged over differences of opinion and resort to crude mockery when they cannot defend an indefensible position.

Ataash Qunari.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LoL. Whatever. 

If you're looking for outbursts and vitriol, then take a long look at DA2, Act 2, multiple scenes involving the Arishok. 

And "slavemaster kings"?  Even if one wants to dilute the actual definition of slavery to include serfdom and various sorts of feudal peasant farming -- so that one could accuse all of Thedas of slavery instead of just the Tvinter Imperium -- the Qunari would be hypocrits of the first order to criticize anyone else for slavery.  They treat their mages like animals, in ways that make even hardened Andrastians and many Templars blanche.  Any conquered person who won't convert is lobotomized and used for menial labor.  They have a caste system.  Etc.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[blothulfur]

No vashoth are not suffered to live in Qunandar, they may leave if they do not represent a danger to others. Mages are a fraction of the population cursed with terrible powers, to protect the majority from this danger they are given the choice of dying honourably as a respected Qunari or serving the Qun under the Arvaarad's leash. We do not let the rabid or criminally insane run free and so the saarebas are not allowed to harm innocents either.

Feudalism is slavery.

And I agree the high point of Dragon Age 2 was the Arishok, tasked by the evil of slavers and zealots, making a stand against the corrupt and decadent cesspit of Kirkwall. A lone hero in pursuit of the Ashkaari's very words, a true adventure.

[Killjoy Cutter]

You're back into your RP-on-a-non-RP-thread trolling again. 

Any attempt at discussion with someone playing the part of a true believer, as you are, is an exercise in the useless. 

If you're ever willing to have an objective discussion on the matter, perhaps we can pick this back up.  Until then, you're just playing the part of a preaching zealot.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[blothulfur]

If you say so, bye bye.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I'm not leaving, I'm just not going to waste my time trying to dicuss the objective faults and failings of the Qun and its zealots with you.

If anyone else would like to actually discuss instead of play preacher man, please do.

(On both forum sites I used to moderate, RP posts in a non-RP thread were considered trolling and grounds for moderator action... too bad it's not the same here.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Il Divo]

All I know is that Sten rocks. That is all.