215 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

Il Divo wrote...

All I know is that Sten rocks. That is all.

True, but that is the value of an individual, something that Sten doesn't neccesarily believe in.

[Bayz]

****ing no. We had enough religions and political systems preaching a "we" against "us" and allowing governments to control its people in every single thing they do in our world to provoke genocides ever now and then without fictional crap making its way to this world.

[Sylvianus]

I am surprised, the Qun seemed so cool to many people. It 's good to see that so many people understand that what is fun in a fantasy game, isn't necessarily in real life. That restores my faith in Humanity !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 décembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[Bayz]

Faith in humanity? You are doomed

[Sylvianus]

That's what everyone tells me !! You are lost, you are doomed !

But do not worry, every day spent on the bsn, recall me how I'm lost.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 décembre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Bayz]

We are doing it for your own good. But just because we don't know you in real life, if we did we would just like to take advantage of you and then drop you aside.

You are a stranger so we can be fuzzy an nurture you as if you were our dear child...

[Killjoy Cutter]

My point is not that the Qun is greatly worse than other systems in place in Thedas -- it is that the Qun is at least as deeply flawed and morally suspect as any other system in place in Thedas.

That the other systems have their faults does not excuse the faults of the Qun and its followers.

[blothulfur]

We of the Qunari have no slaves, that evil practise is the domain of the bas (whether they are called peasant, serf or thrall), who seek to impose their petty little authority over others at all times because of their inferiority and greed. The feudal slave kingdoms enslave their own women and children without compunction and when our free and progressive society appears to shame their morally repugnant behaviour, they whine at us for our effective and structured society, seeking to justify their own dirty little sins by saying we are equally corrupt.

No, we do not have slaves or class and we are better.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Qamek:  substance used to turn those who refuse to convert into mindless slaves.

[blothulfur]

Qamek: Only used on criminals who commit the most vile acts, so that they may serve their victims and society rather than be wastefully executed or tortured as the barbaric bas are wont to do.

Once again you prove my case for me, thank you.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Link provided > no link provided.

Qamek:  substance used to turn those who refuse to convert into mindless slaves.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 16 décembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[blothulfur]

Speculation. The only time it is mentioned is in the case of the thief and enemy of the people Isabelllla who stole the tome of Koslun. From that one conversation the prejudiced bas have crafted more illogical lies to discredit us. There were no reports of the masses who converted during the exalted march against us having Qamek used against because just like the Vashoth they were driven forth, we do not suffer non Qunari to dwell amongst us and spread their evil ideologies of slavery and false gods.

Really i've destroyed all your other pathetic arguments, now I destroy this one just as easily, is it not time to bow down before me and acknowledge your better. Then swear fealty to the Qun.

Modifié par blothulfur, 16 décembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Wiki > RP troll blathering.

[blothulfur]

Ah the wiki was written by the developers then, or just by fans of the series most of whom are prejudiced against me and mine. This intellectually bankrupt habit of hiding behind the accusation of me being a role playing troll is becoming somewhat overused, try to be a little more creative.

The Qun exhorts us all to better ourselves after all.

And with that my alloted labours call me.

Anaan esaam Qum.

Modifié par blothulfur, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

That's nice. Whatever.

[The Hierophant]

blothulfur wrote...

Ah the wiki was written by the developers then, or just by fans of the series most of whom are prejudiced against me and mine. This intellectually bankrupt habit of hiding behind the accusation of me being a role playing troll is becoming somewhat overused, try to be a little more creative.

The Qun exhorts us all to better ourselves after all.

And with that my alloted labours call me.

Anaan esaam Qum.

[Bayz]

[quote]simfamSP wrote...

[quote]Objectively, the Qun's "moral guidelines" include conquest, slaughter, summary execution, sexism, slavery (yes, slavery, stop pretending otherwise), and the "choice" between between conversion, death, or lobotomy.[/quote]

Name any nation that hasn't done this before, especially during Medieval Europe. Conquest does not mean the Qun is flawed. [/quote]

San Marino, Andorra and a plenty others...

Yes, yes and now any nations that hasn't gotten over it and now is civilized and peaceful. We have had crap enough already to take more.

Imperialism ended up taking a huge toll on the colonies and cultures that were destroyed and a huge toll on the empires that built them. It is the main reason the US is so successfull with its "imperialism lite", because keeping troops occupying countries is just stupidly expensive. That makes the Qun terribly flawed.

[quote]simfamSP wrote...

Sexism isn't really the term when we speak about the Qunari I believe. Though from a general point of view it is sexism, to them it is religion. The Women who follow the Qun believe it to be right, the ones that have any objections can live as Tal-Vashoth.[/quote]

Some women in some countries know that if they are seen walking through the street with a male that is not part of their family they will be stoned to death. They are cool with it, just natural order for them. Doesn't make it less sexist.


[quote]simfamSP wrote...
The 'convert or die' is much like any outcome of conquest. It's either 'convert or die' or 'join us or die' or... you get my point no? No matter what the 'living' option may be there will always be a 'or die' put in there, no matter if it's conversion or betrayal. Atleast the Qun give you a life to lead. [/quote]

Hmmm so...all you need is for a religion to tell you what to do? Pick your choice bro' there are aplenty already. Go to any temple of any religion tell them that you would love to become a drone because all this free will thing is bullcrap and totally not for you and you will end up sooner or later finding a priest more than happy to help you, might be hard as it isn't something everybody ask every day but hey, I'm pretty sure you'll find out something

[quote]simfamSP wrote...
[quote]The only ways to escape your assigned role, no matter how miserable or misplaced you feel, are death or outright rebellion. The Qun has no room for questions, no room for doubt, no room for misfits, and no room for compromise.[/quote]

And thats what makes it such a strong nation. All that doubt the Qun die or leave, they do not plauge the nation with their ideals, if they did eventually others would follow and then what? No Qun. [/quote]

...and that is wrong?
[quote]simfamSP wrote...

The majority of the Kossith follow it with a passion (Sheparding Wolves) and know no other lives, so I think we also have to see that any other system *other* than the Qun is obviously wrong and alien.

The same with us who live in this Western world, we see their ways as alien and wrong. I would never want to be a Qunari, but I understand their way of thinking - this is why I love Sten so much, his way of thought is fascinating and I really come to understand him ideals even though I am very much against them. [/quote]

I know many middle easterners and chinese fans of Dragon Age that see the Qun twice as alien as we do. Some even feel themselves rightfully insulted when anyone with not enough sense in his head (ahem:blush:) decides to make use of Unfortunate Implications and draws paralels that are not actually there for them...For what I am still terribly sorry dammit.


[quote]simfamSP wrote...
[quote]And "slavemaster kings"? Even if one wants to dilute the actual definition of slavery to include serfdom and various sorts of feudal peasant farming -- so that one could accuse all of Thedas of slavery instead of just the Tvinter Imperium -- the Qunari would be hypocrits of the first order to criticize anyone else for slavery. They treat their mages like animals, in ways that make even hardened Andrastians and many Templars blanche. Any conquered person who won't convert is lobotomized and used for menial labor. They have a caste system. Etc.[/quote]

They treat mages like we treat animals - understood. It doesn't make them any worse than us though, or are animals not part of our world now? They are just there for our amuesment? Anyway enough of my animal rights bull**** let's get on to slavery.[/quote]

Sure but mages happen to be, you know, sentinent...unlike animals. When a pig talks back to me that's were I will draw the line. And I don't eat parrots, just for the record (not that they would be sentient but hey).

There is a wonderful dialog scene in Pulp Fiction I recommend you to listen to. You don't need to watch it just...listen.

[quote]simfamSP wrote...
Your educated enough to know what slavery is, hell your probably much more educated than I am according to your expansive vocabulary. So you can see that the Qunari's slaves actually are just 'under privelleged workers.' They aren't excactly slaves if they are paid for what they do.
[/quote]

Brainwashed under privilleged workers. For the record Slaves were (oh Shock) paid, in the Roman Empire and ancient Greece. They could even pay their freedom back, and in fact, were expected to.

They could do as well in the Spanish Empire, but keeping in mind most of them died before finishing their service, it made it kinda pointless actually...dunno about brit and french slaves but probably was similar.

[quote]simfamSP wrote...
As for Mages, well the Qun has brainwashed them so badly that they feel they deserve to be treated in such a manner, look at the Kossith in Sheparding wolves... scary thing :/[/quote]

...and it is not a good thing. Brainwashing == Evulz and flawed, Voluntary == Good and flawless. Voluntary =/= Doing stuff under threat.






[/quote]

[Bayz]

simfamSP wrote...

Thank you I will keep that in mind. Though I must admit I was exagerrating with 'any nation.' What I meant to say is any major nation: the Spanish, English, Scottish, Danish, French etc...

Whilst I am well aware of the expense of War on the victim and the culprit it's clear that the Qunari ignore such loss, and are quick to recover. Again it's a bit of a hive mind state no? hehe

Well once upon a time it wasn't comparing their production and wellfare, but uhh...the "sizes of our Africas". fortunately as I said most of us got over it with time...

This actually opens a quite interesting question, how do Qunari economics work? and who do actually commerce with them on Thedas? How does their economic system goes? And how it relates with their military, if at all?

simfamSP wrote...
Let's take a good example from the game, Sheparding Wolves no? Great quest, sad ending. The Sarebaas followed the Qun to the very last, he saw himself as the world did, a monster, a thing to be caged. Thus what does he do? He kills himself.

Now to us it's more like WTF? But let's take a moment and
understand that it is what he was brought up with. It's morally wrong
according to our ways, but to him it was the right choice, he was
following the Qun and did so even when it did him harm.

I know, and it comes to a point i made in other post. We had no right to "liberate" a creature that didn't wanted to be liberated, but then again we are not talking about the DA universe, where the Qunari are born within the Qun, but about if it would be cool to implement said system to our world...and I say no,the goodies that people tend to see on the Qun do not overcome the bad parts it has.

simfamSP wrote...
It's weird I know, but religion is weird. What does this have to do with the woman? Well even when the woman is being stoned to death her last thoughts are of Allah (along with a few curses and such.) Now in our modern way of life it's a damned horrible thing to do, but it's still their way of life, and they will gradually come into our modern ways sooner or late (most of Northern Morocco has done that already. Tangiers isn't the same port town it was a few decades ago. Though if you go into the more remote places you still find these things happening.)

I mentioned in a previous post that I am 45 minuets away from a Muslim country and add to that I'm 5 minuets away from Spain. Gibraltar... a lovley place no?

My homelands are the Canary Islands, couple of miles southwards from your place and Moroccoan reclaimed land for some reason that scapes our minds as they never had rule over the land, so yeah, I had a kind of awareness of what you are talking about, but mind you that you are picking the close to most developed countries where actually it isn't as much religion as it is just cultural background and actually they tend to have religion and state separated. I mean not in the degree of Turkey or other countries in the western middle east but definately more than Arabia Saudi, for instance.

simfamSP wrote...
To me? Yes, I think it mimics the **** German state of indocrination. But to them? Hell no! In a way it's perfect, but morally...nope. Well in my morals anyway.

Note that I am emphesising points of views here and respecting both. I feel like that poor Sylvius the Mad guy, few people can ever understand him :-(

Then we agree on that, just wanting to make sure as in the internet stuff is often misunderstood.

simfamSP wrote...
HAH! I loved it :-) and I totally get it. But let's not go there. I'm not exactly like PETA but I love animals and every time I get into this conversation it always involves me going into hippi mode hehe :-)

As open minded I am about the Qunari way of life. I'm more tight than a duck's ass when it comes to animals. PARADOX I KNOOOOW... XD

Nope, it's cool bro' everyone has its own set of priorities. But even in that you know that it would be wrong to treat humans that just happen to be gifted\\cursed in that way at least, don't you?

simfamSP wrote...
Then they weren't slaves, sorry. They were workers. And no galdiators weren't slaves. Think of it as community service but being paid...and sucking even worse.

Then you have a strange sense of what it is slavery, and no I did not meant only gladiators. The fact that they were paid (even if it was less) was not what made them slaves, was the fact that if their owners decided that they had to be put down for whatever reason, or just because they wanted to, it was legal and supported by the state to do so what made them slaves.

Is not that their work was paid mainly, is that their lives were just worthless to their masters who had a complete control over things as simple as the number of times they could go to the toilet a day or with whom and when they could woo someone what made them so.

AFAIK (not that I am an expert in slavery, mind you) all the slaves used to get some money, from which the master kept a part as payment for the slave's upkeeping (room, food etc) and another so the slave could get some savings, in at least all european empires and part of the middle eastern empires too...call it whatever you want, historians call it slavery and so do I but it is mostly semantics tbh.

simfamSP wrote...
Brainwashed? I think I used that term wrong before, someone corrected me so I know it's not the right term to be used now.

The Qunari are taught their way of life from the beggining. Are they brainwashed? No. In that logic then we are all brainwashed from the start of our lives.

They believe in their ideals, and even if they are being zealots about it, it doesn't mean that they were brainwashed exactly.

I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to that thing they wanted to make to Isabella I think, you know that process that wiped out all their memories and personality, which basically is what brainwashing is. Cannot remember, know they have it somewhere though...

simfamSP wrote...
"subjected to intensive forced indoctrination resulting in the rejection of old beliefs and acceptance of new ones"

There is a choice when believing in the Qun, and that's the Tal Vashoth.

Though the term can be used lightly when it comes to prisoners of war. The Qunari waste no one, but still there is a difference to believing in the Qun and following it.

They can capture you and tell you: "prisoner you are now Tallis." You can follow the Qun by doing your role, but you can still reject it's teachings (secretly of course. Still that proves your point of indocrination... and mine. I did compare them to **** Germany in a way.)

And still if the topic keeps what it is about (if bringing the Qun to real life would be a good thing) that it is not a good thing to happen. German indoctrination was cool and awesome, so awesome it helped them to lose two wars in 30 years, while the "decadent democracies" and "undermensch ruskies" kicked their asses all times over.

Indoctrination has been proven a total failure all over history time after time, governments tried to use it because they thought it was cool, and it kept failing, meaning that actually production means  and versatility tend to matter more than that "triumph of the will" bull****, that will only lead to defeat and fail.

simfamSP wrote...
As for Mages, well the Qun has brainwashed them so badly that they feel they deserve to be treated in such a manner, look at the Kossith in Sheparding wolves... scary thing :/


AND HERE I GO AGAIN CONTRADICTING YOUR SELF AGAIN SIMFAM? Grr I hate it when I do that >.<

Excuse me, but boxing 5 days a week is not the best thing for your mind. I REJECT ALL THAT WAS SAID IN THAT QUOTE! XD

Haha ****ing brit rota's are still applying even in the Rock itself I see, well you know you end up getting used to it...I do...kind of...and I am not born in this culture of working your ass to exhaustion

Modifié par Bayz, 17 décembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[TEWR]

blothulfur wrote...

Speculation. The only time it is mentioned is in the case of the thief and enemy of the people Isabelllla who stole the tome of Koslun. From that one conversation the prejudiced bas have crafted more illogical lies to discredit us. There were no reports of the masses who converted during the exalted march against us having Qamek used against because just like the Vashoth they were driven forth, we do not suffer non Qunari to dwell amongst us and spread their evil ideologies of slavery and false gods.

Really i've destroyed all your other pathetic arguments, now I destroy this one just as easily, is it not time to bow down before me and acknowledge your better. Then swear fealty to the Qun.

codexes written by peoople who were in Qunari lands, Fenris' comment to Isabela about what qamek does to a person, and other sources. 

Seems like qamek does what it's reported to do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 décembre 2011 - 11:39 .

[TEWR]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

All I know is that Sten rocks. That is all.

True, but that is the value of an individual, something that Sten doesn't neccesarily believe in.

Sten does say his views have changed a little though at the end of Origins and says that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade again, which I'm fairly certain happens if you give him his sword at 100 approval and select the right dialogue option.

Can't remember which, but I do distinctly remember him saying "I hope to not be alive that day". Or something of the like.

[bEVEsthda]

I think the discussion here is still missing one point, which I tried to illuminate a while back.

What some realize is that Qun is totalitarian and allows no personal freedom. That's good (that some realize that). Some go on to assume this is a matter of "collectivism" vs the "individual". Some think it's just about the different viewpoints of different cultures.

Look, I don't need to go to Morocco to hear someone poke at details in the western lifestyle. I can do that myself. Just as we're free to discuss those things also in Morocco. In Iran, though, or Syria, things are quite different.
And, most to the point, back in the Cambodia of the Kmehr Rouge,.. the RL society that most resembles Qun, IMO.

And btw, just a year ago, it would have been easy to find debaters claiming people in Syria or Libya seemed happy and content enough. Not even considering the fact that the Qun is fictious, which makes the perceived contentment also fictious.

But the really damning thing about the Qun is that it's founded on dogma. It's a society that don't search for answers, search for new answers, or search for better answers, on issues it already thinks it has "answers". And on new issues, the Qun will be interpreted in ways as if it already has those answers too..
Anyone striving in a different direction will be destroyed.

Why some would believe such a society is cool, is utterly beyond me. I'm not even going to try to put myself in their mind. That's the least insulting way I can formulate my opinion on this.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 17 décembre 2011 - 12:59 .