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[Zeelx]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[someone else]

AlexXIV wrote...

A REAL sacrifice that costs something, not something you actually don't miss and get a medal on top.

by your definition the decison re the rachni queen constitutes a sacrifice, as does the decision to save or lose the council, and perhaps even the feros colonists.   And the first two also cost shep in terms of subsequent moral standing and plot development.

[Zeelx]

Edit: Post removed. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Xilizhra]

someone else wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I know, I wasn't being wholly literally serious.

I know and wasn't trying to be preachy - but its relevant to the OPs point - renegade choices are imo really necessary to the 'believability'  of the ME story - Shep would have been an idiot to warn the bataraians -[ in what drug-induced reverie could she possibly have imagined 300,000 people could manage to pack a toothbrush on 60 minutes notice, much less get not only off-world but through a mass relay and out of the system?!?]   - and simultaneously provide hard proof that she was on the asteroid, and likely the one pulling the trigger?

sorry for going on about that one, but there are plenty of others - point is pure paragon or renegade is narratively less satisfying than a mixed play - unless you're a partizan in the cerberus wars...

IYO. Personally, I don't need any to feel quite satisfied with the story.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I'm already a paragade I don't pull para's consistently unless I need the para points since 2 makes me have to do that. If they return back to ME style or better rewards then I can be a true paragade and base all my decisions off of info I have at the time and what I believe will be the future consequences. For instance my para shep mournfully allowed for Kate and her crew to be killed in order to save her world and to get Balak because letting him go has a high potential of him to do this on an even larger scale.

[AlexXIV]

someone else wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

A REAL sacrifice that costs something, not something you actually don't miss and get a medal on top.

by your definition the decison re the rachni queen constitutes a sacrifice, as does the decision to save or lose the council, and perhaps even the feros colonists.   And the first two also cost shep in terms of subsequent moral standing and plot development.

Well maybe I am just not explaining well enough. I mean that the player needs to make a sacrifice, not just Shepard. I think the only thing we can really lose as a player are our favorite companions. I mean if you have to sacrifice your bromance or LI for your ideals then it really shows how idealistic you really are. Or if you are only idealistic as long as it doesn't cost you much. I mean it is kind of cheap to have ideals for which you never have to pay.

[Gespenst]

But paragons are all about compromise: trying to talk their way out or talking people down (or pushing biotic gods down).

But seriously, no-one's ever 100% paragon. Everyone occasionally head-butts a krogan, or sets fire to a krogan (different krogan) or lies to (yet another) krogan so that his dreams of presidium fish won't be crushed. Or kills a thrasher maw (which earns you a whopping 15 renegade points for some reason) ... with a krogan.

[xentar]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Majority do play that way. Only thing is, this site makes it seem otherwise because the renegade die-hards/Cerberus loyalists believe that if you're not with them, you're a paragon/biodrone - and perpetrate that misconception ad nauseum.

In reality, most are just playing their way, which is a mix of both 99% of the time.

It's not just that. I have seen quite a lot of people here stating they would sometimes pick the answer automatically because it's blue. Then there's the persuasion system. The problem is, unfortunately, mostly with the developers who are better off with fewer variations.

[Xilizhra]

Gespenst wrote...

But paragons are all about compromise: trying to talk their way out or talking people down (or pushing biotic gods down).

But seriously, no-one's ever 100% paragon. Everyone occasionally head-butts a krogan, or sets fire to a krogan (different krogan) or lies to (yet another) krogan so that his dreams of presidium fish won't be crushed. Or kills a thrasher maw (which earns you a whopping 15 renegade points for some reason) ... with a krogan.

I think you get automatic Renegade points for clearing the Collector ship, or Horizon or something as well, along with equal Paragon points.

[AlexXIV]

Gespenst wrote...

But paragons are all about compromise: trying to talk their way out or talking people down (or pushing biotic gods down).

But seriously, no-one's ever 100% paragon. Everyone occasionally head-butts a krogan, or sets fire to a krogan (different krogan) or lies to (yet another) krogan so that his dreams of presidium fish won't be crushed. Or kills a thrasher maw (which earns you a whopping 15 renegade points for some reason) ... with a krogan.

Compromise is when you don't get what you want. It's a deal in which you have to give up something. I don't remember that ever happen in ME. For example if you want a cookie, and someone else wants the cookie too. Compromise would be everyone gets half of a cookie. If you talk the other guy to let you have the whole cookie it is maybe skilled haggling on your part, but it is not a compromise.

[someone else]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well maybe I am just not explaining well enough. I mean that the player needs to make a sacrifice, not just Shepard.

I understand but disagree - take Garrus' LM - there is a choice between deferring to your buddies sense of justice and moral outrage (sacrificing your Paragon principals, but upholding your loyalty to him)  or imposing your 'morality' on Garrus and potentially losing his loyalty - (never played it out - but i assume you can)   I do know you can with Zaeed if you make the paragon choice 

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[AlexXIV]

someone else wrote...
I understand but disagree - take Garrus' LM - there is a choice between deferring to your buddies sense of justice and moral outrage (sacrificing your Paragon principals, but upholding your loyalty to him)  or imposing your 'morality' on Garrus and potentially losing his loyalty - (never played it out - but i assume you can)   I do know you can with Zaeed if you make the paragon choice 

Well I let Garrus take the shot and let Vido escape to save the workers. Maybe there is a small sacrifice there, but nothing that really hurts you in any way. I mean it wasn't even enough for me to ever try to stop Garrus. With words, yes, but never warned Sidonis.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[someone else]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I let Garrus take the shot and let Vido escape to save the workers. Maybe there is a small sacrifice there, but nothing that really hurts you in any way. I mean it wasn't even enough for me to ever try to stop Garrus. With words, yes, but never warned Sidonis.

Saphra wrote...
I think the player needs to feel the weight of the sacrifice. Force them to give up a character they're attached to, force them to endure the negative consequences of their decisions every once in a while. Either Paragon or Renegade we should experience the full spectrum of our choices and their effects on other people.

I don't disagree entirely, with your point or Saphra's - but there are choices I feel acutely - mostly in me1 actually Rachni, getting Gianni killed,  killing Wrex to save the mission - but these may just reflect my own character/involvment with the game - quite possibly others are not similarly affected 

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[AlexXIV]

someone else wrote...

I don't disagree entirely, with your point or Saphra's - I are choices I feel acutely - mostly in me1 actually Rachni, getting Gianni killed,  killing Wrex to save the mission - but these may just reflect my own character/involvment with the game - quite possibly others are not similarly affected 

Well I'd like to know why you did it. Because I didn't kill Gianna nor did I kill Wrex. It wasn't ever necessary either. At least in my playthrough. You play Paragon you say?

[CptBomBom00]

Arcian wrote...

Oh my god, it is so amusing seeing zeel's posts getting removed one by one in rapid succession.

I wonder if this account of his get's banned too:whistle:.

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Oh my god, it is so amusing seeing zeel's posts getting removed one by one in rapid succession.

It's despressing for me, because I just saw them post-removal, and I have no idea what ridiculous things he originally said. And I so want to know.

Nothing I consider overly bad though. Guess mods are a bit strict today. Or because ... you know ... he is the usual suspect

[DiebytheSword]

Since I never play full Paragon or Renegade, I totally expect to compromise.

[someone else]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I'd like to know why you did it. Because I didn't kill Gianna nor did I kill Wrex. It wasn't ever necessary either. At least in my playthrough. You play Paragon you say?

I look at them as binary choices that engage me as a player, renegade or paragon - (earlier I said I tend to play out what works dramatically for my particular shep) - if i pick either side, I have out of game and in-game consequences - but I think you are correct that most para choices are insulated from consequences, though the same can be said for ren choices, to a somewhat lesser extent 

[AlexXIV]

someone else wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I'd like to know why you did it. Because I didn't kill Gianna nor did I kill Wrex. It wasn't ever necessary either. At least in my playthrough. You play Paragon you say?

I look at them as binary choices that engage me as a player, renegade or paragon - (earlier I said I tend to play out what works dramatically for my particular shep) - if i pick either side, I have out of game and in-game consequences - but I think you are correct that most para choices are insulated from consequences, though the same can be said for ren choices, to a somewhat lesser extent 

Yeah it's not about renegade vs paragon for me. I want difficult choices. Something I have to gnaw on, think about again and again. Choices I wish I wouldn't have to make. A bit like Virmire even though I always end up sacrificing Kaiden. I mean it is also a choice, but none where you think 'was it a mistake?' because no matter who you choose, you will always be sorry. You cannot make a decision that really changes the way you think about it. I love the Virmire choice, don't get me wrong. But now they only need to add morale dilemma and it is perfect.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

I love the irony of reading a new thread which has people insulting the renegade players for insulting people.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:20 .