701 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Economic Left/Right: -3.12

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.82


Crowd chart.

[AlexXIV]

CptData wrote...

The only two solutions I can see in that case are ethically not acceptable. Either birth control (1 per family) or reduction of genepool by approx 75%.
This world can not bear 7 billion people, not even if they're living without electronics and technology.
That's what the "green guys" don't wanna realize: we're simply too many.

That's what I hate about politicians. For example in our example. Our govenment says we need more people, we have not enough children etc. because soon alot of people reach retirement age and they need more taxes to give them their money. At the same time in other parts of the world people would love to come here and also the world population is too high. So the proper thing would be to not tell people to have more children and instead get the people we need from other countries. But no they do the opposite.

Problem with demoncracy, people are elected to lead countries for 4 or 8 years. That's all they care for. They rather make decisions that make them look good in their government period than making some that don't let them look too good but are the better choices in the long run. Because if they made that, then other politicians would reap the fruits of their work and we can't have that. That's really the point that I say that democracy (as we have it) does not work. Capitalism never really worked, we just were making debts all the time that we now cannot pay back. Even the strongest economies of the world cannot pay their debts anymore.

That's ridiculous.

Most prominent example is the USA atm. Mr. Bush led expensive wars in the name of god. Why would he care about paying for that? He is only in charge for 8 years and how to pay them he can leave his successor, who is also probably member of the opposite party. So now Barak Obama does have the honor to pull the cart out of the mud that Mr. Bush drove in. That's the core essence of our politics today, not only in the USA. Some people make mistakes and at the same time make sure others will have to pay for it. That way they don't even need to try to avoid making mistakes.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[CptData]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

CptData wrote...

The only two solutions I can see in that case are ethically not acceptable. Either birth control (1 per family) or reduction of genepool by approx 75%.
This world can not bear 7 billion people, not even if they're living without electronics and technology.
That's what the "green guys" don't wanna realize: we're simply too many.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but I doubt we'll find a center, so whatevs.

Right now scientists wonder why emission of CO2 is still growing. although everyone tries to reduce that emission.
Humans breathe. They inhale O2 and emit CO2. The more people live on this planet, the more CO2 gets emitted.

Also people fart. Don't laugh - but a fart contains methane. And every liter of methane is potent as 20 liters of CO2 when it comes to green house effect.

So it doesn't matter if we all are trying to reduce CO2 output by not using our cars or using energy saving light bulbs - it doesn't make a difference as long as the headcount of mankind is growing. It needs to be reduced - drastically. Either by birth control or by active reduction of genepool. The second "option" is not a real option - it simply means war. I can not support this. Birth control is ethically more aceptable, but still "bad enough". 

[HowlHowl]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You know, I just realized how strange the BSN is; we all practically murder each other over whose favourite video game character is better, but bring up politics and we somehow all get along. Very peculiar.

Speak for yourself. You hippies don't understand the good a well-placed police baton can do.

That's the BSN I'm used to. Throw in a Tali insult and it'll be just like it usually is around here.

Tali is my favorite companion aside from Garrus and Legion. I would never.

Well that's good. Nice to know even authoritarian fans of police states like Team Dextro.

I only believe in the police state if proper education goes to the surveyors and the enforcers, none of the neanderthals they send to pepper spray college kids and peaceful protesters.

[HowlHowl]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

I agree in more efficient use of resources, but 7 billion is still too many for this planet. Kepler 22b is large enough for us, and I think a new planet would be a good start for that efficiency to take full force. But that's another reason I believe in big government. Government can enforce green initiatives without the corrupting profit motive that corporations who jumped on the green wagon have.

You know, that was actually in one of the readings for my politics class (the final for which I probably ought to be studying); how authoritarian government was needed to promote green initiatives, as democracy isn't doing the job. Of course, it then followed up by saying a form of green anarchy could work too, so it wasn't very conclusive.

I see mild authoritarianism as a means to an end, not an ideal system.

[CptData]

AlexXIV wrote...

Problem with demoncracy, people are elected to lead countries for 4 or 8 years. That's all they care for. They rather make decisions that make them look good in their government period than making some that don't let them look too good but are the better choices in the long run. Because if they made that, then other politicians would reap the fruits of their work and we can't have that. That's really the point that I say that democracy (as we have it) does not work. Capitalism never really worked, we just were making debts all the time that we now cannot pay back. Even the strongest economies of the world cannot pay their debts anymore.

That's ridiculous.

Problem is not democracy but a democracy that's a hostage of untamed capitalism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no communist and no socialist. Actually, I was born in GDR, means I know that socialism fails hard. Same for our current capitalism. It wastes resources to keep the markets growing: why do I have to buy a car every five years just to support car companies? Why do they release new variants of the same cars every 3 or 4 years instead of 10 or 15 like 20 years ago? Because the marked demands it?
It's a waste of resources tbh.

I think we need to review current capitalism. Removing interests is a beginning - money shouldn't grow because of presence of money alone. Maybe we should reduce amout of max money for each person: no one needs BILLIONS to live. MILLIONS should be enough. Maybe we need fair taxes, maybe we need to reduce tax of guys with low income and raise taxes for those on the upper end. I don't know. I'm neither a politician, but I am also not "Joe the Plumber".

Whatever, I won't change anything today. <_<

Modifié par CptData, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[AlexXIV]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

What's that one quote? Democracy is the least bad for of government.

And US debts have absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism, they have to do wih our selfish government. In fact a lage part of the debts is because we've DEVIATED from capitalism, not because of it.

The problem with capitalism is that it is ulimately selfish. I don't say that there are alternatives that would work well atm, but this is a fact. It is like a beast that has an unsatiable hunger, and the more it eats the more it's hunger grows. That's btw a christian description of the devil. All capital sins are based on it. That's also why in christian europe in medivial times many practices were forbidden. For example possession/property was restricted. One person does not need many houses, etc. Also profiteering was forbidden etc.

Mind you alot of things were wrong in medivial times, but not all. Nowadays people in the free market can do what they want. And the least people want to do something for others, most just want to do something for themselves. Remember, we don't even have pure capitalism because we still have regulations of the market. Pure capitalism would be like darwinism. The strong survive and prey on the weak. Capitalism is not about being economic. People mix that up. Being economic means to not waste money. Capitalism means that money is your god.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[firefireblow]

still wondering what things might we be "forced" to compromise on.

I mean will we be compromising on the act of compromise, or will our compromising compromise be un-compromisable, with the fact of compromise?

[HowlHowl]

CptData wrote...

HowlHowl wrote...

I agree in more efficient use of resources, but 7 billion is still too many for this planet. Kepler 22b is large enough for us, and I think a new planet would be a good start for that efficiency to take full force. But that's another reason I believe in big government. Government can enforce green initiatives without the corrupting profit motive that corporations who jumped on the green wagon have.

Kepler 22b is too far away (600 lightyears). Even if we could accellerate a starship to 10% of lightspeed (which is quite unlikely already), it will need 6000 years to reach said planet.

Also it has two and a half times the diameter of Earth. Don't you think gravity scales too? I bet that planet is fine for Elcor, but not for us - except density of said planet is reduced so the planet's gravity isn't much higher than 1.5g (which means if you have a weight of 80 kilos on Earth you'll weigh 120 kilos on that planet). Also athmosphere pressure is important: it shouldn't be much bigger than 1.2 times of standard pressure on Earth.

Holy ffffff I assumed it was only 3 or 4 lightyears away for the telescope surveyors to show such specific interest in it. Well, there goes that. Population control it is.

[elliejean]

o.O

[elliejean]

firefireblow wrote...

still wondering what things might we be "forced" to compromise on.

I mean will we be compromising on the act of compromise, or will our compromising compromise be un-compromisable, with the fact of compromise?

stop that, you evil little troll of a man...

[AlexXIV]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The problem with capitalism is that it is ulimately selfish. I don't say that there are alternatives that would work well atm, but this is a fact. It is like a beast that has an unsatiable hunger, and the more it eats the more it's hunger grows. That's btw a christian description of the devil. All capital sins are based on it. That's also why in christian europe in medivial times many practices were forbidden. For example possession/property was restricted. One person does not need many houses, etc. Also profiteering was forbidden etc.

Mind you alot of things were wrong in medivial times, but not all. Nowadays people in the free market can do what they want. And the least people want to do something for others, most just want to do something for themselves. Remember, we don't even have pure capitalism because we still have regulations of the market. Pure capitalism would be like darwinism. The strong survive and prey on the weak. Capitalism is not about being economic. People mix that up. Being economic means to not waste money. Capitalism means that money is your god.

There is some truth to this: the problem is where the balance is. For instance, something that utterly slaps capitalism in the face, kicks it to the ground, and p*sses on it (it still eats me, if you can't tell) is borrowing 500 TRILLION DOLLARS (in other words, more money that any of us can even really fathom)from another country, and using that to falsly inflate an economy (and often not even doing that--often going into the coffers of high-level businessmen), and merely delaying the inevitable crash. Stuff like THAT is why this country is in so much debt, not capitalism.

Yeah because in this scale paying back debts isn't even an issue anymore. I mean there is no plan to pay it back. It may seem a bit shortsighted, but there is nothing to lose. Because if for example the USA is telling everyone that they won't pay back their depts, then the dollar becomes worthless. And then their debts are zero. Of course they lose creditablitly, but on the other hand they can start over with a new currency.

I think one problem of the USA (and dollar) is that they make money with the money press. Need more money? Let's make more. Problem solved. In our country the ability to just throw out new money is restricted. Most things governments do to fix things are just too shortsighted, we have so many problems by now that they can't even take care about future problems anymore. But those problems in the far future are not going to disappear magically so it will be the next generations who have to deal with them. Like we deal with problems caused by the older generations.

[AlexXIV]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

@Alex  Exactly. And my mistake, I guess I thought you were from the US when it looks like you're not.

Nope, I'm from germany.

[elliejean]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

elliejean wrote...

o.O

Seeing this image after several pages of serious discussion about politics made me lol hard.

Anyway, 4 a.m., probably should get to bed. Anyone else coming to this thread, take the test and add to the chart.

making people lawl is what i do.

[CptData]

AlexXIV wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

@Alex  Exactly. And my mistake, I guess I thought you were from the US when it looks like you're not.

Nope, I'm from germany.

I second that.

Okay, "angsty germans are angsty" - it's a well known "secret". I just think this time we're right.
I, for my part, wish I could make a difference. Working as project manager for NASA, ESA or whatnot and plan "Project Exodus". I don't want to be the manager of "genepool reduction" or "birth control" - that's not what I want, since it solves no problems on the long run: one planet is not enough as long as we need non-regrowing resources to exist.

[AlexXIV]

CptData wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

@Alex  Exactly. And my mistake, I guess I thought you were from the US when it looks like you're not.

Nope, I'm from germany.

I second that.

Okay, "angsty germans are angsty" - it's a well known "secret". I just think this time we're right.
I, for my part, wish I could make a difference. Working as project manager for NASA, ESA or whatnot and plan "Project Exodus". I don't want to be the manager of "genepool reduction" or "birth control" - that's not what I want, since it solves no problems on the long run: one planet is not enough as long as we need non-regrowing resources to exist.

In the long run we don't need non-regrowing ressources. Solar energy is bascially for free. Granted we need some materials, but we can recycle them. In the future probably even more efficiently than today. One thing that would probably be important is to reduce world population in the long run as well. Because the fewer we are the less ressources we need. But I just yesterday saw in the news that Brasilia is loosening restrictions to cut down the rain forest. Means it is now free to be cut down. Maybe we won't have to worry for more than the next 20 years because by then we don't have enough air to breathe anyway and population reduction comes naturally to the point where the air-humans balance is even again. Nature always finds a way, we don't have to worry about that at least.

[AlexXIV]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

@Alex  Exactly. And my mistake, I guess I thought you were from the US when it looks like you're not.

Nope, I'm from germany.

Ah, Deutschland! Ich bin Amerikaner, aber ich liebe Deutschland! Aber, ich spreche (?) kleine, kleine, KLEINE Deutsch.

Alles klar