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[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

someone else wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I know, I wasn't being wholly literally serious.

I know and wasn't trying to be preachy - but its relevant to the OPs point - renegade choices are imo really necessary to the 'believability'  of the ME story - Shep would have been an idiot to warn the bataraians -[ in what drug-induced reverie could she possibly have imagined 300,000 people could manage to pack a toothbrush on 60 minutes notice, much less get not only off-world but through a mass relay and out of the system?!?]   - and simultaneously provide hard proof that she was on the asteroid, and likely the one pulling the trigger?

sorry for going on about that one, but there are plenty of others - point is pure paragon or renegade is narratively less satisfying than a mixed play - unless you're a partizan in the cerberus wars...

IYO. Personally, I don't need any to feel quite satisfied with the story.

It was already obvious that you didn't have any standards, dear.

[xentar]

Hopefully, we will at least have an option of not making a sacrifice, whether this leads to win or a loss.

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I love the irony of reading a new thread which has people insulting the renegade players for insulting people.

You sure like fighting, because we are having a civilized discussion here so I don't see where this comes from.

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I love the irony of reading a new thread which has people insulting the renegade players for insulting people.

You sure like fighting, because we are having a civilized discussion here so I don't see where this comes from.

Was reading the first page, hadn't looked at the second one which moved onto more reasonable discussion.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I love the irony of reading a new thread which has people insulting the renegade players for insulting people.

You sure like fighting, because we are having a civilized discussion here so I don't see where this comes from.

Was reading the first page, hadn't looked at the second one which moved onto more reasonable discussion.

Okay.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah it's not about renegade vs paragon for me. I want difficult choices. Something I have to gnaw on, think about again and again. Choices I wish I wouldn't have to make.

Which is something I've always been asking for, more scenarios which has the player debating whether they're doing the right thing or not. Mass Effect has always advocated for "harsh decisions" but trap them into small bubbles which rarely have any greater effect on the whole, often times leading to favorable outcomes for one side despite how illogical it is. *ME3 spoilers* no leaked spoilers here */ME3 Spoilers*


Balancing consequences and rewards would've helped out the game immensly, making every choice difficult. It's a damn shame that the Renegade / Paragon system was implemented, as it's essentially serving the same purpose as KOTOR's light side / dark side now.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[AlexXIV]

Well I have to say, like Xil, I am happy with the story in ME2 as it is. But of course it could be more, much more. If I consider all the things I like about it I have a hard time being overly critic, especially if I compare it to other games which disappoint me to no end. But if Bioware could do this, give us harder choices, it would be just perfect. Maybe not all would like it at first. But I think if you see, even in the game, why it is a good thing, because you get much more emotionally involved, then a huge majority will see it as a good thing.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[hawat333]

What is a hole race? A race of donuts?
But anyways, yeah, that's a good question. As we've had a lot of discussions about this topic, we will eventually come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as good and evil in the ME verse, right and wrong can be relative, and everything depends on the perspective.
Paragon is just a color, the upper right choice in the conversation wheel,

[Unschuld]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I have to say, like Xil, I am happy with the story in ME2 as it is. But of course it could be more, much more. If I consider all the things I like about it I have a hard time being overly critic, especially if I compare it to other games which disappoint me to no end. But if Bioware could do this, give us harder choices, it would be just perfect. Maybe not all would like it at first. But I think if you see, even in the game, why it is a good thing, because you get much more emotionally involved, then a huge majority will see it as a good thing.

Well, hindsight is always 20/20. In the moment though, it was some great gaming. The awkward middle child rule extends beyond just family, and affects plenty of trilogies. I'm pretty confident that ME3 won't be another Godfather 3 though.

Compromise? I always compromise. I may be *mostly* paragon, but there's both intelligent and flat-out braindead decisions on both sides of that card. Neutral responses can be great, just too bad they're mostly curt and completely to the point (and often cause you to miss some elaboration/funny responses). I'm not sure if I could stomach playing a single side of that paragon/renegade coin. 

[AlexXIV]

Unschuld wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I have to say, like Xil, I am happy with the story in ME2 as it is. But of course it could be more, much more. If I consider all the things I like about it I have a hard time being overly critic, especially if I compare it to other games which disappoint me to no end. But if Bioware could do this, give us harder choices, it would be just perfect. Maybe not all would like it at first. But I think if you see, even in the game, why it is a good thing, because you get much more emotionally involved, then a huge majority will see it as a good thing.

Well, hindsight is always 20/20. In the moment though, it was some great gaming. The awkward middle child rule extends beyond just family, and affects plenty of trilogies. I'm pretty confident that ME3 won't be another Godfather 3 though.

Compromise? I always compromise. I may be *mostly* paragon, but there's both intelligent and flat-out braindead decisions on both sides of that card. Neutral responses can be great, just too bad they're mostly curt and completely to the point (and often cause you to miss some elaboration/funny responses). I'm not sure if I could stomach playing a single side of that paragon/renegade coin. 

I agree with people that paragon/renegade decisions are mostly useless. If anything they force people to choose a side because the game mechanic suggests that if you always pick the right answer you get rewarded with points which unlock special responses. Then I prefer factions whose loyality you can gain and a good old charisma/persuasion/intimidating skill.

[someone else]

... long ago, in thread far way,  I offered the view that the ME series is groundbreaking in terms of interactive fiction - it is certainly not a perfect implementation, but - if I am correct - represents a radical departure in literature, breaking the glass wall between audience, cast and "author" in ways only dimly imagined by the proponents of interactive "novels" and theater.

This tends to moot the para/ren dilemma for me - and  the "consequences" issue I  view as the first explorations within a radically  new literary genre with repercussions far beyond the realm of rpgs and video gaming itself.  "Compromising" is a necessity if the goal is narrative power, because it necessarily places one in a quandry at the moment -in-game as a prior posted noted - much less so if your aim is to hammer home a philosophical POV

I suspect the devs themselves do not yet - perhaps cannot yet - appreciate the potential power of what they have helped create -  so I tend to be somewhat more forgiving of BW, less upset with its failings, and more amazed that they actually got their contrivance off the ground. 
 

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Unschuld]

AlexXIV wrote...

I agree with people that paragon/renegade decisions are mostly useless. If anything they force people to choose a side because the game mechanic suggests that if you always pick the right answer you get rewarded with points which unlock special responses. Then I prefer factions whose loyality you can gain and a good old charisma/persuasion/intimidating skill.

Yeah, I'm actually fo this myself. sometimes I think I'd prefer if there wasn't any color whatsoever. Consequences for not wording things correctly would have more weight. I feel like I'm doing something wrong if there's red and blue dialogue and I don't pick it.  A lot of the time, I'm more inclined to agree with the "standard" options.

[Unschuld]

someone else wrote...

... long ago, in thread far way,  I offered the view that the ME series is groundbreaking in terms of interactive fiction - it is certainly not a perfect implementation, but - if I am correct - represents a radical departure in literature, breaking the glass wall between audience, cast and "author" in ways only dimly imagined by the proponents of interactive "novels" and theater.

This tends to moot the para/ren dilemma for me - and  the "consequences" issue I  view as the first explorations within a radically  new literary genre with repercussions far beyond the realm of rpgs and video gaming itself.  "Compromising" is a necessity if the goal is narrative power, because it necessarily places one in a quandry at the moment -in-game as a prior posted noted - much less so if your aim is to hammer home a philosophical POV

I suspect the devs themselves do not yet - perhaps cannot yet - appreciate the potential power of what they have helped create -  so I tend to be somewhat more forgiving of BW, less upset with its failings, and more amazed that they actually got the contraption off the ground. 
 

I can't deny that this is the reason I like the Mass Effect series as much as I do. I'm just nitpicking, hopefully in a constructive manner, in ways I think it could be further improved in the future for other games that follow in its footsteps.

[CerberusWarrior]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah it's not about renegade vs paragon for me. I want difficult choices. Something I have to gnaw on, think about again and again. Choices I wish I wouldn't have to make.

Which is something I've always been asking for, more scenarios which has the player debating whether they're doing the right thing or not. Mass Effect has always advocated for "harsh decisions" but trap them into small bubbles which rarely have any greater effect on the whole, often times leading to favorable outcomes for one side despite how illogical it is. *ME3 spoilers* Like Balak turning out to be a great guy and helps Shepard. */ME3 Spoilers*


Balancing consequences and rewards would've helped out the game immensly, making every choice difficult. It's a damn shame that the Renegade / Paragon system was implemented, as it's essentially serving the same purpose as KOTOR's light side / dark side now.

   



The Jedi / Sith choice in Star Wars is different . If you chose either one you are walking down a certain path. In Mass Effect chosing either paragon / renegade means nothing because Bioware set ME 2 so one sided in favor of Paragons . 

[naledgeborn]

Paragons can't compromise. It's not in their DNA. They're the definition of the "Knight Templar" trope. Unrealistically ideal and irrational. Stubborn and in-malleable in their narrow minded decision making. Paragade-Renagon-Renegade are all >>>> Paragon.

[Unschuld]

 *whispers* consequences....

[therussianviking]

My Shepard will make the choices that will help the entire war effort. No matter who he loses.

[Labrev]

CerberusWarrior wrote...


The Jedi / Sith choice in Star Wars is different . If you chose either one you are walking down a certain path. In Mass Effect chosing either paragon / renegade means nothing because Bioware set ME 2 so one sided in favor of Paragons . 

If there's no difference between two sides, how can it be one-sidedly in favor of one?

CerberusWarrior = durrrr.

[CerberusWarrior]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

CerberusWarrior wrote...


The Jedi / Sith choice in Star Wars is different . If you chose either one you are walking down a certain path. In Mass Effect chosing either paragon / renegade means nothing because Bioware set ME 2 so one sided in favor of Paragons . 

If there's no difference between two sides, how can it be one-sidedly in favor of one?

CerberusWarrior = durrrr.

   

Oh there is a difference beacuse of ME 2 makes it clear that the paragon ending choice is the only choice . 

[Unschuld]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

Oh there is a difference beacuse of ME 2 makes it clear that the paragon ending choice is the only choice . 

I'm sorry (and I'm sure Bioware is too) that after killing all those people that stood in the way of your goals and alienating everyone around you in the game means that there won't be a plate of milk and cookies waiting for you at the end.

Modifié par Unschuld, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[someone else]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

In Mass Effect chosing either paragon / renegade means nothing because Bioware set ME 2 so one sided in favor of Paragons . 

*shock*  "Your ability to restate the obvious is impressive." - rough shep quote.

 It means nothing in terms of ultimate outcome - "White hats win"  - foregone conclusion at the outset and you've done that point to death, game over you win.

But it does means a great deal in terms of in-game experience, dialog and has *gasp* a consequece now and then.

[AlexXIV]

Well the game isn't out yet and it is in development for at least 1 or 2 months. It is a bit of shame that people already saw some leaks and god knows in what context. I really can't imagine that renegades get totally screwed. I said it myself in jest, that renegades get royally screwed, but I honestly don't believe it. There are probably different kinds of renegades, for example I can imagine renegades who also made the one or other paragon decission or treated some people nicer than others, etc. It should depend on how many people like you, not whether your orange or blue bar is higher.

I really can't blame Bioware for making people fail who burned all bridges behind them. Because frankly, that's stupid unless you are some sort of god or whatever that doesn't need anyone. Also I can't blame Bioware for letting a race that has mostly negative experience with Shepard not feel very eager to jump to his help. Many renegade decisions are critical because they hurt someone, frankly.

However, it should depend on what you did and who suffered or profitted from it, and not if it was orange or blue. I can think of many renegade decisions, especially interrupts, that didn't do anything aside from giving Shepard an edge in a fight that couldn't be avoided anyway. And there is nothing wrong about that.

I really think people shouldn't be relying on these leaks too much because even if something is labelled  'failure' or 'success' it doesn't mean that it means that you win or lose. It was maybe just bad naming or means failure or success in a different context. However, I would be very surprised if renegades cannot win the game in some way. I can't think of any Bioware game where there wasn't a good/evil ending. Jedi Empire, KotOR, Dragon Age, etc. Bioware has a tradition to give people two different styles to play the game and have a proper ending for both. So why should they break with this successful concept now? Makes no sense. I think people are maybe reading more into it than there is.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:53 .