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Will paragons compromise


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#76
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Saphra Deden wrote...
The only consequences I'm aware of are the kind that suck the fun out of the game by invalidating the import feature.


Well, patently untrue -  I have already given you and CW game, set and match on the ultimate outcomes issue - at least if what has seeped through by the way spoilers is accurate - I am allergic to leaks, try to take claritin before signing on here, but have nonetheless broken out in a rash - 

...mais retournee a nos moutons...there are consequences aplenty for both para and ren choices:

- some tba I would guess - like the fate/role of the rachni, possible neg consequenes of reprogramming vs trashing heretic geth, saving whatisname's work on the genophage cure, [btw do we ever find out what's in the salvaged greybox - if we salvage it?],  impact of disclosing Rael's work or not,  and there may yet be some nuances to the choice at the CB.

- some we already know - saving or frying the council - and again, we KNOW without your having to point it out AGAIN that it doesn't affect the outcome - but it does change the ambience in ME2;  killing or saving a bunch of minor characters - Fist, Rana, Shiala, Helena, and the girl of my dreams, Gianna, provides surprises and reinforces a sense of continuity.

Finally you focus on the plot consequences pretty much to the exclusion of character and relationship development - and in that arena, the consequences for the characters are dramatic and permanent.

Thank you..you're welcome.   Looking forward with great anticipation to your withering  response.

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:46 .


#77
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Paragon / Renegade system is flawed, random, too vague an entity, exists to mask linearity, and has no parallel IRL. It must be replaced with something realistic and tangible, like loyalty to factions system.

The choices, too, should be tied to choosing your side, and the consequences of them should be very clear and immediate - even imminent - instead of reaching far into the vague, uncertain future, completely out of Shepard's control and sight, unless he's a seer who can predict how this particular choice would turn out when tossed into the vastness and complexity of the galaxy for a year or so.

For example, I support Cerberus and TIM, and this is easy to define and consistent. You could guess how my Shepard would act in certain situations - according to his goals and loyalties. You wouldn't know in advance how Paragon or Renegade Shepard should act, until you see the colour of the options.

Consider Legion's LM, where both options are almost completely indistinguishable, and the consequences are impossible to predict. With a sigh of relief, people press the blue "win" option. Mission accomplished. No need to really choose. All of that is counterproductive, enforces further the linearity, and helps hypocrisy flourish.

To carry over our choices into the next game is apparently too grand an undertaking. What's more, it's unnecessary, because too much time passes between games, people forget the less significant choices, or they could drop out of the series, or new people would come who don't care about what happened before, or the game company could drop out.

What we really need is to make our choices matter right now, in the very game we're playing, without waiting for the last few lines of the epilogue of the last game of the series in the far, uncertain future.

Playing games is about instant gratification. Who wants to wait for years for the reward? If and when by the time we finally reach that promised destination, and we discover that none of our choices matter after all (who cares what was before? what matters is that we got here!), it's not going to be a satisfying conclusion.

#78
Yezdigerd

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I must say all the renegade bellyaching is tiresome, the choices are cosmetic, you can win the game just as well whatever you colour you chose, a renegade just to get to meet less people because they kill them. If this create an empty emotional void, don't?. It almost like in real life, except there assaulting and slaughtering people have negative consequences.

#79
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Well, patently untrue -


Untrue? have you ever imported a Renegade into ME2?

#80
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laecraft wrote...

What we really need is to make our choices matter right now, in the very game we're playing, without waiting for the last few lines of the epilogue of the last game of the series in the far, uncertain future.


I think we can have both. Some choices should have a pay off (good or bad) within the same game that we are presented with them, but others should have a pay-off much later. In addition, choices can have multiple consequences. We might feel the effect a short time after we make it and then continue to feel it or experience a new consequence for it in the next game.

#81
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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Another paragon vs. renegade thread? Here we go again...

Didn't really seem like it. It's probably turned into one in the past 8 hours though.

#82
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jreezy wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Another paragon vs. renegade thread? Here we go again...

Didn't really seem like it. It's probably turned into one in the past 8 hours though.

So all that means is that I predicted correctly.

#83
Eclipse_9990

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I'm willing to compromise on some things. Sacrificing a team mate? Doubt it. Sacrificing a whole race that isn't Batarian, (Maybe)Krogan, or (Maybe)Geth? I seriously doubt it

#84
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Cthulhu42 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Another paragon vs. renegade thread? Here we go again...

Didn't really seem like it. It's probably turned into one in the past 8 hours though.

So all that means is that I predicted correctly.

Yup

#85
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Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...

Well, patently untrue -


Untrue? have you ever imported a Renegade into ME2?


...yes...complete with a dead krogan former good guy,  dead space bug, 86'd the colonization effort on Feros, lota dead people I won't see again, a LI that never consummated cause I toasted his buns on Virmire [actually come to think of it, a truly noble, self sacrificing paragon choice in everything but "color" that cost my persona a great deal emotionally and has permanent carry-ove in-game consequences] , a human hegemony in the making due to the untimely passing of a certain turnian, asari and salarian, and a rep for being a badass.

How is that not 'consequential'?  What, oh what have I overlooked now? Prithee.

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:26 .


#86
DiebytheSword

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laecraft wrote...

Paragon / Renegade system is flawed, random, too vague an entity, exists to mask linearity, and has no parallel IRL. It must be replaced with something realistic and tangible, like loyalty to factions system.

The choices, too, should be tied to choosing your side, and the consequences of them should be very clear and immediate - even imminent - instead of reaching far into the vague, uncertain future, completely out of Shepard's control and sight, unless he's a seer who can predict how this particular choice would turn out when tossed into the vastness and complexity of the galaxy for a year or so.

For example, I support Cerberus and TIM, and this is easy to define and consistent. You could guess how my Shepard would act in certain situations - according to his goals and loyalties. You wouldn't know in advance how Paragon or Renegade Shepard should act, until you see the colour of the options.

Consider Legion's LM, where both options are almost completely indistinguishable, and the consequences are impossible to predict. With a sigh of relief, people press the blue "win" option. Mission accomplished. No need to really choose. All of that is counterproductive, enforces further the linearity, and helps hypocrisy flourish.


I can get behind most of this.  Strict Paragon/Renegade is a fool's errand.  Blind loyalty to an ideal makes you a pawn, to a video game's machniations no less.  When I chose in Legion's LM, I sided with the greater number of his processes, much less so than picking paragon option in that corner. 

I'm not in agreement with instant consequences though, there should be a range of instant to far reaching implications that are tracked.  Sadly, the permutations mean that we will see only slight changes in tonality rather than full blown differentiated content because of the complexity of the production process.  Realistically it is very difficult to make extremely varied paths through three games.

#87
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someone else wrote...

How is that not 'consequential'?  What, oh what have I overlooked now? Prithee.


What you imported was largely the same as not importing at all. That's the problem.

#88
AlexXIV

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Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...

How is that not 'consequential'?  What, oh what have I overlooked now? Prithee.


What you imported was largely the same as not importing at all. That's the problem.

Ah so renegade import was mostly like the default without savegame import? Now I get it.

I never played renegade tbh. I can't bring myself to make so many renegade choices to get there.

I even broke with my supposed renegade playthrough.

#89
Laser Beam

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warriorN7 wrote...

As I have been playing ME from the start with a paragon shep I've been hearing alot about consequences for paragon decisions in ME3 and I was wondering will some of you other paragons make renegade decisions e.g kill a hole race or party member just for the best outcome. I would like to think  that whatever goes wrong i wouldn't compromise my Shepard but in saying that if anything happened to liara or wrex i would consider it. any other paragons thought about this


Tell me, do renegade's make paragon choices? Is this a video-game with no impact on real-life coming from the decisions you make in it?

#90
Omega4RelayResident

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Shep: "Well fight and win without it, I wont let fear compromise who I am."

Rewatch this... over... and over... www.youtube.com/watch

I see:

Miranda admitting she was wrong about trusting TIM.

TIM: "something something something DARKSIDE something" this is all I hear when hes talking. The hand gesture he makes when thinking of getting his hands on the CB is the telltale hand gesture all psychotic villains make when thinking of aquiring more power.

Image IPB

Welcome to Paragon Bank... if you are not a member here you are morally bankrupt.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:47 .


#91
Sigyn2011

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laecraft wrote...

Paragon / Renegade system is flawed, random, too vague an entity, exists to mask linearity, and has no parallel IRL. It must be replaced with something realistic and tangible, like loyalty to factions system.

The choices, too, should be tied to choosing your side, and the consequences of them should be very clear and immediate - even imminent - instead of reaching far into the vague, uncertain future, completely out of Shepard's control and sight, unless he's a seer who can predict how this particular choice would turn out when tossed into the vastness and complexity of the galaxy for a year or so.

For example, I support Cerberus and TIM, and this is easy to define and consistent. You could guess how my Shepard would act in certain situations - according to his goals and loyalties. You wouldn't know in advance how Paragon or Renegade Shepard should act, until you see the colour of the options.

Consider Legion's LM, where both options are almost completely indistinguishable, and the consequences are impossible to predict. With a sigh of relief, people press the blue "win" option. Mission accomplished. No need to really choose. All of that is counterproductive, enforces further the linearity, and helps hypocrisy flourish.

To carry over our choices into the next game is apparently too grand an undertaking. What's more, it's unnecessary, because too much time passes between games, people forget the less significant choices, or they could drop out of the series, or new people would come who don't care about what happened before, or the game company could drop out.

What we really need is to make our choices matter right now, in the very game we're playing, without waiting for the last few lines of the epilogue of the last game of the series in the far, uncertain future.

Playing games is about instant gratification. Who wants to wait for years for the reward? If and when by the time we finally reach that promised destination, and we discover that none of our choices matter after all (who cares what was before? what matters is that we got here!), it's not going to be a satisfying conclusion.


Hmm...some good points.  I have to respectfully disagree with you, though.

1.) In Legion's LM, the end decision is whether you want to wipe out the heretics or re-write them.  If you re-write the heretics to accept the geths' logic, there is a possibility that they will help Shepard fight the Reapers.  That has been hinted at what's to come.  If you wipe out the heretics completely, you don't gain any allies.  I don't think it's about hypocrisy, it's about taking as many potential confederates to battle as possible.

2.) During ME3, we will see the effects of our decisions (albeit finally).  The decisions we make will have rewards or consequences.  For instance, we know that Liara becomes the SB.  Since Cerberus had intel as to where the SB's HQ are, it's likely that they will go after her.  Shepard has to rescue Liara.  On that mission, the Broker's HQ is in flames.  You can choose to try and save as much data as possible (since she may be incapacitated at the time) or get Liara the heck outta there before you have to fight off another wave of Cerberus troops.  If you get the data, you get more resources but cannot take Liara with you immediately on the next mission.  If you make the choice to get outta dodge, you sacrifice intel but probably get some bonus points with Liara.  

3.) Paragon/Renegade is flawed, yes, but remember, this is the 1st RPG to not force you to make completely morally right and wrong decisions.  It's not about win vs. lose--remember, Cerberus will not be an ally in the 3rd game, so if you blew up the Collector base, all you get is a bunch of pats on the back from your crew members.  They still manage somehow to get ahold of the technology from it (this is from Retribution), so this is the decision that irks me.  I prefer to think of the system as 'by the book' vs 'my way or the high way'.  Here's an example of how a renegade decision could backfire on you.  On Tali's LM, you could choose to share the data of the experiments her father was performing to get Admiral X'en's favor and lose Tali's loyalty, BS your way through the trial through either charm or intimidate points, or if you helped Veetor or Kal'Reegar out, you can rally the crowd.  If you lose Tali's loyalty and she doesn't get exiled, it's highly likely that she won't rush to help you when you're fighting the Reapers.   Again, this is not about right and wrong, it's about gathering as many friends as possible to an impossible fight.

#92
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Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...


What you imported was largely the same as not importing at all. That's the problem.


Schroedinger's cat - (otherwise you are metagaming on the basis of your knowledge of the me2 vanilla game state which  had to be there in some form for me virgins)

Modifié par someone else, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:45 .


#93
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someone else wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...


What you imported was largely the same as not importing at all. That's the problem.


Schroedinger's cat - (otherwise you are metagaming on the basis of your knowledge of the me2 vanilla game state which  had to be there in some form for me virgins)


What?

#94
AlexXIV

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Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...


What you imported was largely the same as not importing at all. That's the problem.


Schroedinger's cat - (otherwise you are metagaming on the basis of your knowledge of the me2 vanilla game state which  had to be there in some form for me virgins)


What?

He means that you shouldn't know that it is almost the same as the default, unless you are metagaming.

And if you don't know it, it can't bother you. On the other hand it is of course a bit of an revelation if you already suspect Bioware to have bias against renegades. Oil into the fire so to speak.

#95
GodWood

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Shep: "Well fight and win without it, I wont let fear compromise who I am."

Yet you blow up the base due to a fear of what Cerberus could do with it.

#96
Unschuld

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GodWood wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Shep: "Well fight and win without it, I wont let fear compromise who I am."

Yet you blow up the base due to a fear of what Cerberus could do with it.


Something tells me you missed the point...

#97
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Schroedingers Cat - a physics paradox that illustrates the point that an event outcome doesn't exist until an observation is made - before opening the box, the cat is both dead and alive, before opening ME2, the game state is indeterminate. (an application of heisenberg's principle)

- most simply not only can't you know the state of your new ME2 universe till you start it, it does not exist, paragon or renegade till you do.

Your foreknowledge of the me2 vanilla state confounds your attempt to import a renegade and have a valid renegade gamestate at the outset

#98
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AlexXIV wrote...

He means that you shouldn't know that it is almost the same as the default, unless you are metagaming.


What does this have to do with meta-gaming?

I'm talking about the design of the game here and my experience with it as a player. I'm not talking about the decision making process or which outcomes are right or wrong. I'm questioning the implementation of the import feature and the way that it has hurt the game.

Justifying why you made a decision based on information not available to the player or Shepard at the time is one thing. This is something else. I'm questioning the design decisions implemented in the game itself.

What is the fun or point in playing a Renegade through the series if they don't actually get anything for importing their character beyond a higher starting level?

#99
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someone else wrote...

Schroedingers Cat - a physics paradox that illustrates the point that an event outcome doesn't exist until an observation is made - before opening the box, the cat is both dead and alive, before opening ME2, the game state is indeterminate. (an application of heisenberg's principle)

- most simply not only can't you know the state of your new ME2 universe till you start it, it does not exist, paragon or renegade till you do.

Your foreknowledge of the me2 vanilla state confounds your attempt to import a renegade and have a valid renegade gamestate at the outset


You are completely misunderstanding the argument here.

Anger rising.

#100
GodWood

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Unschuld wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Shep: "Well fight and win without it, I wont let fear compromise who I am."

Yet you blow up the base due to a fear of what Cerberus could do with it.

Something tells me you missed the point...

The point is stupid.