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[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes. I have even been right for the wrong reasons.

Blowing up the Collector base to protect the "soul of the species" and having Cerberus turn out to be enemies in ME3 is being right for the wrong reasons.

I'm reminded of a movie I saw once about a trial in which a woman murdered her husband. At the start on juror who was very sexist was convinced that she was guilty and made up hateful arguments to explain why. The other jurors disagreed but over the course of the trial they eventually agreed that she was guilty, but this only after they'd analayzed all the evidence.

So the sexist man was right that she was guilty, but obviously for a wrong reasons. Meaning that his being "right" didn't really prove anything. He was right inspite of his flawed reasoning and ignorance.

Let's say as well that a man comes to you warning of a sneak attack but he has no real evidence, just a feeling perhaps that this will occur. You ignore him because you can't justify drastic action without evidence. The attack happens though and you are devestated. You were wrong, but your reasoning was sound.

Hm ok. But how will you avoid this happening if you are not all-knowing.

Thing is people discuss on this forum for ... more than a year, back and forth. And seemingly can't come to a consens. Shepard didn't have a year. And he didn't have alot of people to discuss with either. It was a matter of seconds. Maybe he couldn't just think every possible option through but felt it would be best to stick with the original plan. I mean TIM is an ass. He always puts pressure on Shep. He hides info and gets Shep and his crew in trouble. And now he discovered just a second before Shep's going to blow the base up that it is not necessary.

Quite a coincidence. He never mentioned it before. That maybe they could save the base, that they could use it. It never came up, just when Shepard has no time to waste TIM comes up with it. Alone for that I would blow it up because it smells like another trick to puppeteer Shepard around. That's what I think anyway. And maybe that's how it felt for Shep so he blew it up. Honestly it was the original plan. How could it have been a bad plan to blow it up? How could it have been their orignial plan if it was a bad one? If you only have one or two seconds to make a choice, would you really change a plan that was good enough until then?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

jreezy wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well since Shepard is the last best hope of the galaxy I would hope he is smarter than I am.

What makes Shepard so important? There's nothing smart about Shepard's decision to destroy the Collector base. He doesn't offer a rational argument, all he does is preach about the "soul of the species", whatever that means. It's a moral decision for him, not a tactical one.

I really do hate that "I won't let fear compromise who I am" line. There should've been more dialog choices in that decision.

The only people who "let fear compromise who" they were are those who blew up the base.  Shepard was a person who worked with Cerberus to stop the Collectors.  He was willing to put up with them to defeat the real threat... knowing from the offset that they weren't saints.  Fear over how the base had been used to kill people compromised who Shepard was during practically all of Mass Effect 2.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes. I have even been right for the wrong reasons.

Blowing up the Collector base to protect the "soul of the species" and having Cerberus turn out to be enemies in ME3 is being right for the wrong reasons.

I'm reminded of a movie I saw once about a trial in which a woman murdered her husband. At the start on juror who was very sexist was convinced that she was guilty and made up hateful arguments to explain why. The other jurors disagreed but over the course of the trial they eventually agreed that she was guilty, but this only after they'd analayzed all the evidence.

So the sexist man was right that she was guilty, but obviously for a wrong reasons. Meaning that his being "right" didn't really prove anything. He was right inspite of his flawed reasoning and ignorance.

Let's say as well that a man comes to you warning of a sneak attack but he has no real evidence, just a feeling perhaps that this will occur. You ignore him because you can't justify drastic action without evidence. The attack happens though and you are devestated. You were wrong, but your reasoning was sound.

All a part of threat assement, and no, you can't always rely on information you control alone.  Sometimes you do need to follow intuition when dealing with someone, because it sometimes engages sensory input you wouldn't always have on the forefront of your mind.  Bodly language and empathy are also important to have when dealing with anything that isn't yourself, like whether or not to trust someone.  Some times you need to gamble because you cannot always be prepared.  You can come close, sure, but not always.

I do agree with the terrible writing in that spot for Shep's dialogue.  I had different reasons, even if the dialogue choice was shoehorned on me.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone for keeping or destroying the base. I've got both playthroughs. Before the suicide mission Shepard is necessary for Cerberus. It's the SM. CB > Cerberus = happy TIM and Shepard is expedable. CB goes boom = angry TIM and Shepard is expendable. It's a no win for Shepard either way. Do you trust Cerberus? Do you trust TIM? What technology does the CB contain? How to build a fully functional organo-synthetic AI.

Honestly I don't think it's going to matter much anyway. Cerberus is going to go through the Omega relay anyway and gather what pieces of the station that they can and it's going to end up about the same amount as if the station was intact except without the capacity to build anything... maybe. Because we didn't hang around to see how many pieces that station blew up into. There may still be a functioning part, and that will be just the part TIM wanted anyway... okay I'm metagaming, but still. And don't get me started as to how a pistol can take down that terminator monstrosity.

The war has started. Ask the Batarians.

But to the original question? Will paragons compromise? Your zealots won't. Just like your zealot renegades won't. The bottom line is that paragon or renegade or somewhere in between, if the Reapers are defeated by Shepard, no matter how she/he does it, no matter how many worlds get sacrificed, Shepard is going to be a god.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Hm ok. But how will you avoid this happening if you are not all-knowing?

By thinking with my head and not my heart. By always doing my best to weigh the pros and cons objectively and action rationally.

And thus making a wrong decision for the right reasons.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

And thus making a wrong decision for the right reasons.

Yes, because if I'm wrong for the right reasons at least I can defend myself by saying that I made a rational choice, that I wasn't a fool. I was wrong because of fate and/or circumstances beyond my control that I had no hope of predicting with any accuracy.

The same can not be said of the reverse; someone wrong because they did not make a rational decision. There is no defense in that case.

Were I right for the wrong reasons I'd just be an ****.

So you fear justifying yourself after a possible failure?  Not being judgemental, just asking.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Were I right for the wrong reasons I'd just be an ****.

Too late.

But for folks who spends as much time on the forums as we do, that's pretty much inevitable.

Douchebag high-five?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

And thus making a wrong decision for the right reasons.

Yes, because if I'm wrong for the right reasons at least I can defend myself by saying that I made a rational choice, that I wasn't a fool. I was wrong because of fate and/or circumstances beyond my control that I had no hope of predicting with any accuracy.

The same can not be said of the reverse; someone wrong because they did not make a rational decision. There is no defense in that case.

Were I right for the wrong reasons I'd just be an ****.

I wouldn't see it that harsh. I personally also make decissions with my heart rather than my brain at times. So to speak. I can't say that heart decissions go more often wrong than right. Because subconsciously you always think, even if you don't notice. And your brain may figure an answer out before you know. So if you don't have time to study a choice it may be the best to go with the first thought. And if it is '**** you TIM' then that's what it is.

I really hated how TIM controlled Shepard. So it may very well be a sort of rebel decission because I really would always do the opposite of what TIM asks of me if I had the choice. And this was the first time I had a choice to disobey.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[JamieCOTC]

It's topics like these that make me thankful I have more than one Shepard w/ varying degrees of alignment.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Hm ok. But how will you avoid this happening if you are not all-knowing?

By thinking with my head and not my heart. By always doing my best to weigh the pros and cons objectively and action rationally.

And failing every time.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

And failing every time.

You seem to mistake writer bias for failing, Xil.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:38 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why are you so mean to me?

Ooh, well-played.

Oh wait, you probably meant that in a light-hearted way and I shouldn't get so bumstung about it. Carry on.

I just figure if we're going to inevitably be jerks to each other, we should have fun with it and admit what shallow, emotionally insecure people we both are.

Like how my primary reason for blowing the base is usually to ****** TIM off.  Everything else I have good reasons for, but that?  Nope, just felt like trolling.

Seriously, though, I'm hangin' here.  Somebody high-five me.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And failing every time.

You seem to mistake writer bias for failing, Xil.

In the world of fictional stories the writer is the all mighty god.

[capn233]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's topics like these that make me thankful I have more than one Shepard w/ varying degrees of alignment.

That's too bad because the way ME3 import works is that only the pure Paragon import can lead to a success, whereas mixed ones can't win.  If you import pure Renegade, it just gives you "Critical Mission Failure" after the first load screen.

[naledgeborn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ahh! Here ladies and gentleman is the Paragon of "Right for the Wrong Reasons!"

I prefer Knight Templar or Zealot. Either one works.

[AlexXIV]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why are you so mean to me?

Ooh, well-played.

Oh wait, you probably meant that in a light-hearted way and I shouldn't get so bumstung about it. Carry on.

I just figure if we're going to inevitably be jerks to each other, we should have fun with it and admit what shallow, emotionally insecure people we both are.

Like how my primary reason for blowing the base is usually to ****** TIM off.  Everything else I have good reasons for, but that?  Nope, just felt like trolling.

Seriously, though, I'm hangin' here.  Somebody high-five me.

Bleh I hate high-fiving. But oh well here you go.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And failing every time.

You seem to mistake writer bias for failing, Xil.

You seem to be unable to suspend your disbelief.

Ahh! Here ladies and gentleman is the Paragon of "Right for the Wrong Reasons!"

I contend that it's less realistic for Shepard to be right for the wrong reasons so very many times than it is for many of the reasons to in fact be right. Far, far less realistic.

[Someone With Mass]

I think the "wrong reasons" deal is completely subjective, so...meh.