150 réponses à ce sujet

[Unschuld]

Youknow wrote...

Because that's an issue of game design. If the game becomes a guessing game, there's something wrong. I shouldn't have to be like "I chose Garrus to die rather than Thane, I'm screwed now." It should be more along the lines of "I chose Thane to die, so now that guy that should have been assassinated lived, and turned around and blew up the fortress resulting in millions of people dying" and "I chose Garrus to die so as a result, the army was trained poorly and they were sloppier than they would have been had Garrus been alive. As a result, the blockade failed and the enemy got by and millions of people died as a result." Even this is kinda bad, but it's better than what we are hearing now. Again, the issue is not their deaths having weight. The issue is that certain character's deaths have far more weight and it's completely and utterly random. 

Choices like that encourage Meta-gaming, which isn't a good thing in a RPG. A player should never feel like the results of their choices (even if it resulted in someone dying) are better or worse. Just different pathways to the end of the road. 
 issue is that all of them should have similar weight. 

I'd say that's more of an opinion, as are my posts for thinking in favor of it. It isn't random though, by any means. It's the developer's intended story arc. Working out every single possibility to make every player happy (an insurmountable feat regardless) would be impossible to accomplish with the time and funding the developer has in its resources.

If you don't want to metagame, then don't. It's a matter of willpower. From what I've seen though, losing Tali or Garrus is more losing a couple squadmates than anything else (unless there is some sort of replacement which I don't know about). The majority of the story arc stays the same, albeit different consequences. The positive effects for keeping them alive seem to have more effect on their character development than anything else from what I've seen, so I don't see why people who dislike their characters to begin with even find this an issue.

[Ryzaki]

In truth I do believe all deaths should have pretty heavy weight. Miranda being dead should lose Shep valuable intel about cerberus, Tali and/or Legion being dead should make uniting the Geth and Quarians impossible , Jacob dead should lose something. ...Sorry Jacob, Thane dead should result in another failure maybe someone who should be assassinated continues to stir up trouble, (same with Mordin (genophage cure is either a bust or has horrible side effects that ****** of the Krogan), Samara (lose info that she has), Zaeed (same) and so on).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Sealy]

Ryzaki wrote...

In truth I do believe all deaths should have pretty heavy weight. Miranda being dead should lose Shep valuable intel about cerberus, Tali and/or Legion being dead should make uniting the Geth and Quarians impossible , Jacob dead should lose something. ...Sorry Jacob, Thane dead should result in another failure, (same with Mordin, Samara and so on).

Agreed. It makes sense that some deaths will cost you more then others though, what would be more awesome is that some characters living is going to cost you as well.  That way I get consequenses too. Cause I don't let people die in my playthroughs. Except For Thane, once. I deleted that playthrough. Stupid Miranda and her lying.

[Fidget6]

 

 I can't imagine Bioware would leave those two slots on your squad blank.

Well, since according to Bioware there are no "permanent" squadmates in ME3, there shouldn't really be any permanent "slots".

[AdmiralCheez]

Youknow wrote...

Because that's an issue of game design. If the game becomes a guessing game, there's something wrong. I shouldn't have to be like "I chose Garrus to die rather than Thane, I'm screwed now." It should be more along the lines of "I chose Thane to die, so now that guy that should have been assassinated lived, and turned around and blew up the fortress resulting in millions of people dying" and "I chose Garrus to die so as a result, the army was trained poorly and they were sloppier than they would have been had Garrus been alive. As a result, the blockade failed and the enemy got by and millions of people died as a result." Even this is kinda bad, but it's better than what we are hearing now. Again, the issue is not their deaths having weight. The issue is that certain character's deaths have far more weight and it's completely and utterly random. 

Choices like that encourage Meta-gaming, which isn't a good thing in a RPG. A player should never feel like the results of their choices (even if it resulted in someone dying) are better or worse. Just different pathways to the end of the road. 
 issue is that all of them should have similar weight. 

Wait, isn't choosing who lives and dies in the SM also metagaming?

[Ryzaki]

Fleshdress wrote...

Agreed. It makes sense that some deaths will cost you more then others though, what would be more awesome is that some characters living is going to cost you as well.  That way I get consequenses too. Cause I don't let people die in my playthroughs. Except For Thane, once. I deleted that playthrough. Stupid Miranda and her lying.

That would actually be interesting. Say if you leave Thane alive Shep can't manipulate a group because he/she attacks Thane but he escapes and informs the group of Shep's potential manipulation. That would also be interesting.

LOL I don't see why anyone would pick Miranda at that scene once Samara makes the suggestion. I'd have my Shep facepalm if he could.

[Ryzaki]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Wait, isn't choosing who lives and dies in the SM also metagaming?

Not really.

Most people only play thorugh once and have several people killed completely by accident.

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Wait, isn't choosing who lives and dies in the SM also metagaming?

Ah, but it's Voice of God metagaming. Not a Shepard decision.

Shepard made all the right decisions. It's just, people die in combat...

[AdmiralCheez]

Ryzaki wrote...

Not really.

Most people only play thorugh once and have several people killed completely by accident.

Well, they didn't "choose" to have people die, then.

@Dean: But VoG metagaming is still metagaming, since you are manipulating choices to get a desired outcome that you have foreknowledge of.

Not that metagaming's inherently evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
@Dean: But VoG metagaming is still metagaming, since you are manipulating choices to get a desired outcome that you have foreknowledge of.

Not that metagaming's inherently evil.

But it's different.

[/nasally middleschooler voice]

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But it's different.

[/nasally middleschooler voice]

Oh I see what you did there.

[Ryzaki]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not really.

Most people only play thorugh once and have several people killed completely by accident.

Well, they didn't "choose" to have people die, then.

@Dean: But VoG metagaming is still metagaming, since you are manipulating choices to get a desired outcome that you have foreknowledge of.

Not that metagaming's inherently evil.

No they didn't. Which for me suggests they shouldn't be ridculously penalized for it (at least not a whole not more than having Thane and Samara die instead). Which is why I want bad outcomesfor all cases of  character death.  (and maybe some good outcomes too I.E. the Geth are easier to defeat if Legion's dead or the Quarians are extremely vulnerable if Tali's dead (after being disloyal because shep exposed the data) and so on).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:08 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Ryzaki wrote...

No they didn't. Which for me suggests they shouldn't be ridculously penalized for it (at least not a whole not more than having Thane and Samara die instead). Which is why I want bad outcomesfor all cases of  character death.  (and maybe some good outcomes too I.E. the Geth are easier to defeat if Legion's dead or the Quarians are extremely vulnerable if Tali's dead (after being disloyal because shep exposed the data) and so on).

Dunno.  Given my expectations, it looks like they're handling it pretty well.  For example, the geth/quarian thing gets a lot messier without Tali, and a certain mission doesn't go very well without Jack.

[Ryzaki]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dunno.  Given my expectations, it looks like they're handling it pretty well.  For example, the geth/quarian thing gets a lot messier without Tali, and a certain mission doesn't go very well without Jack.

But I want that kind of thing with *everyone* or nearly everyone. Not just Garrus/Tali/VS.

Actually considering how annoying I found a certain someone Jack being dead results in a win-win.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oddly enough, I think Bioware has been handling the consequences of people* dying better than the actual setup for people, well, dying.

The Suicide Mission needs a reboot, but the outcomes make sense.


*The exception is Legion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...
But I want that kind of thing with *everyone* or nearly everyone. Not just Garrus/Tali/VS.

A problem with this was that, to be nice about it, most of the ME2 cast was never really important in the first place. They were accessories without any real plot-hooks to the main story, and galactic policy never really depended on them.

You'd need a major ME2 redesign to give everyone a 'galactic' effect.

For some, a tone-appropriate cameo is really all they warrant. Personally, I like Samara and Jacob's concepts (if not executions).

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oddly enough, I think Bioware has been handling the consequences of people* dying better than the actual setup for people, well, dying.

The Suicide Mission needs a reboot, but the outcomes make sense.


*The exception is Legion.

Yeah, Legion was funky.

"Crap!  What if he died or they didn't recruit him?"

"Well, what if he just reboots on another platform from, I dunno, his most recent save?  He's software, after all."

"Ooh, how deviously cheap and brilliant at the same time."

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...A problem with this was that, to be nice about it, most of the ME2 cast was never really important in the first place. They were accessories without any real plot-hooks to the main story, and galactic policy never really depended on them.

You'd need a major ME2 redesign to give everyone a 'galactic' effect.

For some, a tone-appropriate cameo is really all they warrant. Personally, I like Samara and Jacob's concepts (if not executions).

Eh true. Still sucks though. :/

Plus if BW really wanted to they could make something up to make their deaths hurt Shepard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oddly enough, I think Bioware has been handling the consequences of people* dying better than the actual setup for people, well, dying.

The Suicide Mission needs a reboot, but the outcomes make sense.


*The exception is Legion.

-edit-

with apologies to those spoiled

And then they *spoiler* him. No matter what.

Edit: Damn, how to get gray font?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[CroGamer002]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oddly enough, I think Bioware has been handling the consequences of people* dying better than the actual setup for people, well, dying.

The Suicide Mission needs a reboot, but the outcomes make sense.


*The exception is Legion.

Yeah, Legion was funky.

"Crap!  What if he died or they didn't recruit him?"

"Well, what if he just reboots on another platform from, I dunno, his most recent save?  He's software, after all."

"Ooh, how deviously cheap and brilliant at the same time."

Nope.

If Legion dies as 2nd Fire Team leader, he will say there's no carrier.

Legion dies for good.

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

*snip*

DAMN IT DEAN {color=rgb(50, 50, 50)}SPOILERS LIKE THIS BUT WITH [THESE] INSTEAD OF {THESE}.{/color}

[Ryzaki]

Dang it guys don't quote posts with the grey font or snip it.

Now I can see the spoilers. Good thing I already read them!

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh true. Still sucks though. :/

Plus if BW really wanted to they could make something up to make their deaths hurt Shepard.

My solution would have been to make the Suicide Mission much more fatalistic. Guaranteed deaths, for one, but each character arc is resolved with the 'and now I'm ready to die' mentality, rather than 'hope I'm not distracted, I might not make it back in time for beer otherwise.'

A small number of guaranteed deaths, with potentially more, would have upped the replayability... because then ME3 players would want to see ME3 in light of if you had chosen another person to die.