150 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Mesina2 wrote...

Nope.

If Legion dies as 2nd Fire Team leader, he will say there's no carrier.

Legion dies for good.

That just means his most recent memories aren't uploaded, though.

He could theoretically still have a back-up with the collective, last updated before journeying to the derelict Reaper or whatever.

I don't know--do geth have an autosave function?

[CroGamer002]

^He might give memories to Geth before Suicide Mission, but that's just it. Only memories.


This new Geth platform would not be Legion.


And that's if Geth make new Geth platform like Legion's.


Though it's probably unlikely since, well, ME3 spoiler.

[Someone With Mass]

He probably has a backup of himself somewhere.

I mean, if today's computers can make backups, then I'm pretty sure he can. Like...one backup every hour or so to send to the geth collective.

[Youknow]

Unschuld wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Because that's an issue of game design. If the game becomes a guessing game, there's something wrong. I shouldn't have to be like "I chose Garrus to die rather than Thane, I'm screwed now." It should be more along the lines of "I chose Thane to die, so now that guy that should have been assassinated lived, and turned around and blew up the fortress resulting in millions of people dying" and "I chose Garrus to die so as a result, the army was trained poorly and they were sloppier than they would have been had Garrus been alive. As a result, the blockade failed and the enemy got by and millions of people died as a result." Even this is kinda bad, but it's better than what we are hearing now. Again, the issue is not their deaths having weight. The issue is that certain character's deaths have far more weight and it's completely and utterly random. 

Choices like that encourage Meta-gaming, which isn't a good thing in a RPG. A player should never feel like the results of their choices (even if it resulted in someone dying) are better or worse. Just different pathways to the end of the road. 
 issue is that all of them should have similar weight. 

I'd say that's more of an opinion, as are my posts for thinking in favor of it. It isn't random though, by any means. It's the developer's intended story arc. Working out every single possibility to make every player happy (an insurmountable feat regardless) would be impossible to accomplish with the time and funding the developer has in its resources.

If you don't want to metagame, then don't. It's a matter of willpower. From what I've seen though, losing Tali or Garrus is more losing a couple squadmates than anything else (unless there is some sort of replacement which I don't know about). The majority of the story arc stays the same, albeit different consequences. The positive effects for keeping them alive seem to have more effect on their character development than anything else from what I've seen, so I don't see why people who dislike their characters to begin with even find this an issue.

It is random to the player. There's no way the player can possibly know this. They do not know what the devs have in mind, and they should not have to. 

I don't metagame. But good design has it to where there's no point to meta-gaming. In this case, it's encouraged in the sense that losing to random party members is essentially more weight than others... Because...? Um... The devs said so. It's not readily apparent in the game. Tali I can partially see, but Garrus? How would I know? Garrus is literally a nobody. More than anyone else on your squad. If it's only character development, fine, but that's not a punishment. 

@AdmiralCheez: 

No, deaths of squadmates in ME2 is not metagaming the first playthrough unless you read a walkthrough and know full well that certain actions will leave certain people alive. It's not until a subsequent playthrough where you start saying "I wonder what happens when ____ is dead?" That it becomes metagaming, or you think "I should keep ____ alive because he's probably important" for no real reason outside of the devs intentions with the character. It'd be like if the game prompted you to save your James or Garrus. No matter how much you could possibly like James as a character, you'd know from the way BW handles their series that saving Garrus would be a better choice. Which is not good. Liara is about the only one that kinda has immunity for this because she's at least got "being the Shadow Broker" on her side. 

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
My solution would have been to make the Suicide Mission much more fatalistic. Guaranteed deaths, for one, but each character arc is resolved with the 'and now I'm ready to die' mentality, rather than 'hope I'm not distracted, I might not make it back in time for beer otherwise.'

A small number of guaranteed deaths, with potentially more, would have upped the replayability... because then ME3 players would want to see ME3 in light of if you had chosen another person to die.

Nah guaranteeded deaths would've irked me. Do not want. I would've appreciated far more difficulty in the choices though.

Guarantteed deaths wouldn't have made it more replayable to me though =/

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nah guaranteeded deaths would've irked me. Do not want. I would've appreciated far more difficulty in the choices though.

Guarantteed deaths wouldn't have made it more replayable to me though =/

Guaranteed deaths are tricky, but I'm of the school of thought that player-agency helps deal with them. If someone dies, but you choose who (or rather, your choice is retroactively obvious).


For example, the tech expert would make a good chance. Who you send down is up to you... but at the other end, you find that Harbinger blasted the exit shut. The tech-expert is able to unlock the doors from within the vent, but can't get out.

A 'good' tech expert gets everyone through, and is the only one to die. A 'bad' tech expert not only dies, but someone else gets shot as well due to the delay.

Is anyone in particular guaranteed a death? No. Is someone? Yes. Is there still a basis for 'better' decision-making? Yes, to prevent more from dying.



I understand not everyone agrees with it... but secretly, I think it would have been worth it just to hear the Talimancers justify never picking Tali for the vents.

[naledgeborn]

Someone With Mass wrote...

He probably has a backup of himself somewhere.

I mean, if today's computers can make backups, then I'm pretty sure he can. Like...one backup every hour or so to send to the geth collective.

One computer is one computer. Legion is 1,183 Geth. That's a lot of thinking that has gone on and is going on to just "back up" remotely.

[AdmiralCheez]

Youknow wrote...

@AdmiralCheez: 

No, deaths of squadmates in ME2 is not metagaming the first playthrough unless you read a walkthrough and know full well that certain actions will leave certain people alive. It's not until a subsequent playthrough where you start saying "I wonder what happens when ____ is dead?" That it becomes metagaming, or you think "I should keep ____ alive because he's probably important" for no real reason outside of the devs intentions with the character. It'd be like if the game prompted you to save your James or Garrus. No matter how much you could possibly like James as a character, you'd know from the way BW handles their series that saving Garrus would be a better choice. Which is not good. Liara is about the only one that kinda has immunity for this because she's at least got "being the Shadow Broker" on her side.

Well, yeah.  You said "punished for choosing," and choosing who dies implies metagaming.  When they die on your first run, it's not by choice.  However, saying it's unfairly rigged doesn't make sense, since it's not either/or--everyone can live or die.

I'm glad they didn't revisit the either/or thing again, to be frank.  Not after Ash and Kaidan fused into the same character.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Guaranteed deaths are tricky, but I'm of the school of thought that player-agency helps deal with them. If someone dies, but you choose who (or rather, your choice is retroactively obvious).


For example, the tech expert would make a good chance. Who you send down is up to you... but at the other end, you find that Harbinger blasted the exit shut. The tech-expert is able to unlock the doors from within the vent, but can't get out.

A 'good' tech expert gets everyone through, and is the only one to die. A 'bad' tech expert not only dies, but someone else gets shot as well due to the delay.

Is anyone in particular guaranteed a death? No. Is someone? Yes. Is there still a basis for 'better' decision-making? Yes, to prevent more from dying.



I understand not everyone agrees with it... but secretly, I think it would have been worth it just to hear the Talimancers justify never picking Tali for the vents.

Ugh no. I happen to like the tech experts living. And that pretty much would have Jacob killed off in droves. He gets enough flak as it is.

Though the last bit .

[Dean_the_Young]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I understand not everyone agrees with it... but secretly, I think it would have been worth it just to hear the Talimancers justify never picking Tali for the vents.

Legion is a robot, literally made of tech. Thus he is best suited for any tech-related job. Justification complete.

Did that give you the enjoyment you were craving?

Depends. Can I rub it in your face-plate as an admission that Geth are better techies than Quarians? 

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:48 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Guaranteed deaths are tricky, but I'm of the school of thought that player-agency helps deal with them. If someone dies, but you choose who (or rather, your choice is retroactively obvious).

For example, the tech expert would make a good chance. Who you send down is up to you... but at the other end, you find that Harbinger blasted the exit shut. The tech-expert is able to unlock the doors from within the vent, but can't get out.

A 'good' tech expert gets everyone through, and is the only one to die. A 'bad' tech expert not only dies, but someone else gets shot as well due to the delay.

Is anyone in particular guaranteed a death? No. Is someone? Yes. Is there still a basis for 'better' decision-making? Yes, to prevent more from dying.

I understand not everyone agrees with it... but secretly, I think it would have been worth it just to hear the Talimancers justify never picking Tali for the vents.

That's actually a pretty cool way to handle it.

But with the vent example, I'd probably always choose Legion.  I mean, hell, geth are immortal--all he'll really lose are his most recent memories.

Damn, I'd love to be made of tech sometimes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh no. I happen to like the tech experts living. And that pretty much would have Jacob killed off in droves. He gets enough flak as it is.

Well, other parts of the mission would be changed as well.

One of my favorite outlines of an alternative SM was from Renegade Reinterpretations, which gave Jacob (and Tali) a cool little role in zero-g boarding the Collector Ship.

Though the last bit .

No, not .

.

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


Damn, I'd love to be made of tech sometimes.

You are.

:innocent:

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, other parts of the mission would be changed as well.

One of my favorite outlines of an alternative SM was from Renegade Reinterpretations, which gave Jacob (and Tali) a cool little role in zero-g boarding the Collector Ship.

I was with that until Miranda was seen as a valuable biotic bubble specialist over Jack. Not seeing that. There are some obstacles raw power and discipline are needed for. Miranda is powerful true, but a biotic barrier the size of the one Samara/Jack wields needs formidable power as well as control from my perspective. You need someone ridculously OP. And sadly the only OP biotics Shep has are Jack and Samara. Jack's drive to survive to me would give her the extra boost in discipline that she needs. (which is why I could see Jack lasting all the way to the end even disloyal but if she's disloyal she'd probably send the blast too early because she doesn't trust Shep to catch her when she falls and that's what kills off the second squaddie).

And yeah that doesn't sound fun from my perspective. It sounds irritating.

No, not .

.

EVIL!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, other parts of the mission would be changed as well.

One of my favorite outlines of an alternative SM was from Renegade Reinterpretations, which gave Jacob (and Tali) a cool little role in zero-g boarding the Collector Ship.

I was with that until Miranda was seen as a valuable biotic bubble specialist over Jack. Not seeing that. There are some obstacles raw power and discipline are needed for. Miranda is powerful true, but a biotic barrier the size of the one Samara/Jack wields needs formidable power as well as control from my perspective. You need someone ridculously OP. And sadly the only OP biotics Shep has are Jack and Samara. Jack's drive to survive to me would give her the extra boost in discipline that she needs. (which is why I could see Jack lasting all the way to the end even disloyal but if she's disloyal she'd probably send the blast too early because she doesn't trust Shep to catch her when she falls and that's what kills off the second squaddie).

In that fan-

What would it count as, anyway? It's more outline/worldbuilding than fiction.


Anyways, Miranda and Jack were more or less unified into a single character concept. Miranda IS Jack, for all intents and purposes.

And yeah that doesn't sound fun from my perspective. It sounds irritating.

It's a grim-dark Mass Effect reinterpretation overall. If you like feeling angry and repulsed, it's actually a good read.

No, not .

.

EVIL!

And lo, the first trumpet sounded...

[Dean_the_Young]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I understand not everyone agrees with it... but secretly, I think it would have been worth it just to hear the Talimancers justify never picking Tali for the vents.

Legion is a robot, literally made of tech. Thus he is best suited for any tech-related job. Justification complete.

Did that give you the enjoyment you were craving?

Depends. Can I rub it in your face-plate as an admission that Geth are better techies than Quarians? 

Hmm, I may have to rework my justification...

Here we go. Tali and Legion are equally tech skilled, but Shepard feels that as a synthetic, Legion is better suited to crawling through vents, and is less likely to be bothered by the heat, and so will get the job done more eficiently.

Edit: Also, what Cheez said.

But Talimancers already agree that they like Tali on her knees.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In that fan-

What would it count as, anyway? It's more outline/worldbuilding than fiction.

Anyways, Miranda and Jack were more or less unified into a single character concept. Miranda IS Jack, for all intents and purposes.

Yeah that's not much of a fic

And now my brain hurts. Miranda the Cerberus cheerleader and Jack the Cerberus experiment was united into one being? 

It's a grim-dark Mass Effect reinterpretation overall. If you like feeling angry and repulsed, it's actually a good read.

A good read sure. I like dark angsty books where I can cry because the hero isn't automatically awesome. A good game? Not to me. I like playing the hero that saves everyone and has kittens and rainbows. I expect to be able to do both in games (have the uber hero and the hero that fails). The current SM gives me that option this reinterpetation wouldn't.

And lo, the first trumpet sounded...

Should I be afraid? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's a grim-dark Mass Effect reinterpretation overall. If you like feeling angry and repulsed, it's actually a good read.

You know, that's the cool thing about ME.  The more paragon you play it, the more sunshine and rainbows the game gets.  The more renegade, the more grimdark.

Which kind of story would you like to tell today, Commander?

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah that's not much of a fic

And now my brain hurts. Miranda the Cerberus cheerleader and Jack the Cerberus experiment was united into one being?

Stockhold syndrome? (They did such bad things to me, they must have good reasons?)

Wait, checking...

No, Jack got booted back into backstory: Teltin was during the century-long First Contact War, and Jack was the original Subject Zero. Miranda's a special clone of Jack, plus genetic mods.

A good read sure. I like dark angsty books where I can cry because the hero isn't automatically awesome. A good game? Not to me. I like playing the hero that saves everyone and has kittens and rainbows.

Well, we differ.

Part of what I like about it is that while it starts really dark and angsty, there's a theme of 'healing' and 'recovery' through the struggle. By the end, Humanity is either on its ways to becoming a normal, stable member of galactic society with a bad past, or trying towards a utopian re-creation of the Council system.

Or the bad ends.

Should I be afraid? 

Very.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But Talimancers already agree that they like Tali on her knees.

I don't think so. Mordin already tells FemShep "do not ingest" when dealing with Garrus due to the whole dextro-DNA thing, so I assume it would be the same in reverse, with the dextro partner ingesting.

Oh, how naive and innocent you are...

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Stockhold syndrome? (They did such bad things to me, they must have good reasons?)

Wait, checking...

No, Jack got booted back into backstory: Teltin was during the century-long First Contact War, and Jack was the original Subject Zero. Miranda's a special clone of Jack, plus genetic mods.

...yeah. Not feeling this at all now. Miranda's not Miranda at all now. Not sure about Jack.

Well, we differ.

Part of what I like about it is that while it starts really dark and angsty, there's a theme of 'healing' and 'recovery' through the struggle. By the end, Humanity is either on its ways to becoming a normal, stable member of galactic society with a bad past, or trying towards a utopian re-creation of the Council system.

Or the bad ends.

Obviously. I like my "OMG everything will be all right!" paragon and my "We're on our own and we have to make the best of it." renegade. Neither choice feels wrong.

Though I would love some "Dead Ends" for Shepard in ME3 (like trying to take out Harby too early gets him killed or some such).

Very.

uh oh.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:15 .