167 réponses à ce sujet

[mineralica]

The closest to rememberance arc was the fate of ME1 LIs in ME2. Shepard sitting in quarters and staring at photo frame included.

As for situations when it might happen - maybe it'll be the case of dead on SM LI? It was said they won't be left unnoticed, and every attempt to do this to alive LI leads to 'see previous page'.

Modifié par mineralica, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[txgoldrush]

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

dis thread has no point tbh.

anyone who thinks that thane should die because his "story is about him dying" should get an arrow to the knee by the whiterun guards tbh

lets cop out then...lets destroy a story and a characters theme all due to the power of "choice".

Thane is a huge example of how a "choice" could hurt his character more than help.

And I liked what I saw about his role in the leak. It was perfect.

[wildannie]

txgoldrush wrote...

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

dis thread has no point tbh.

anyone who thinks that thane should die because his "story is about him dying" should get an arrow to the knee by the whiterun guards tbh

lets cop out then...lets destroy a story and a characters theme all due to the power of "choice".

Thane is a huge example of how a "choice" could hurt his character more than help.

And I liked what I saw about his role in the leak. It was perfect.

It's not a cop out!  what would be a cop out on the whole premise of the ME series would be to remove choice in the last chapter, changing the whole feel of the game.  
Just because you think that Thane should die doesn't mean that that's what's best.  From where I'm sitting your idea of what's good is poles apart from mine.  It's your opinion but really it's quite ridiculous that you would think that an option to keep Thane alive would 'destroy' the story.
 It's perfectly clear that at the very least Thane *will* die when unloyal and quite possibly even when loyal but unromanced so please, why should you have it all ways?? Why should those who would prefer to see him live have to witness your tragic fantasy in every playthrough?
Did you personally commision the ME series?

I'm pretty sure it's the second time you've created a thread trolling Thane fans in this way.  I really wish you would just stop.

[jeweledleah]

http://masseffect.wi...ers/Thane_Krios

things to note - viable transplant candidate, but refused it originally.

it is unclear when disease will affect him adversely, but activity can actually slow down the progression of it (so I'm still not understanding where this less then a year to live coming from, I don't remember him EVER stating actual timed prognosis, just that he had an incurable disease)

his letter to romanced Shepard CLEARLY states that while he has accepted his death, he's NOT at peace with it.

non romanced Shepard can tell loyal Thane that he still has something to live for - his son. and the friends on a ship.

keeping Thane alive through the end, even curing him, let alone leaving his fate somewhat ambiguous to allow people to headcanon their own outcomes, is in NO way a copout. killing him regardless of player actions however, IS a cop-out.

Thane's character arc, his story is NOT about him being a dying man. its a story of a man, who had his eyes open through life changing circumstance and is now on a path of redemption for the things he has done before.

[Asenza]

txgoldrush wrote...

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

dis thread has no point tbh.

anyone who thinks that thane should die because his "story is about him dying" should get an arrow to the knee by the whiterun guards tbh

lets cop out then...lets destroy a story and a characters theme all due to the power of "choice".

Thane is a huge example of how a "choice" could hurt his character more than help.

And I liked what I saw about his role in the leak. It was perfect.

You could only think it was perfect if you thought all there is to Thane's character is that he's dying. There is a lot more to his character than that.

Besides, ending a character's story by killing them is easy. Making it dramatic or tragic when a character has so much to live for might inspire pity or tears, but not much else. That's cheap, emotional manipulation. Reaching for the low hanging fruit. Having a character live beyond their expected time and forge a new path (Robin Hobb's Fools Fate was a beautiful example of this) would do Thane far more justice.

[txgoldrush]

jeweledleah wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...ers/Thane_Krios

things to note - viable transplant candidate, but refused it originally.

it is unclear when disease will affect him adversely, but activity can actually slow down the progression of it (so I'm still not understanding where this less then a year to live coming from, I don't remember him EVER stating actual timed prognosis, just that he had an incurable disease)

his letter to romanced Shepard CLEARLY states that while he has accepted his death, he's NOT at peace with it.

non romanced Shepard can tell loyal Thane that he still has something to live for - his son. and the friends on a ship.

keeping Thane alive through the end, even curing him, let alone leaving his fate somewhat ambiguous to allow people to headcanon their own outcomes, is in NO way a copout. killing him regardless of player actions however, IS a cop-out.

Thane's character arc, his story is NOT about him being a dying man. its a story of a man, who had his eyes open through life changing circumstance and is now on a path of redemption for the things he has done before.

He is not at peace with his death AS OF ME2!!!! This may NOT be the case at the end of ME3, when his will to live out his final days living, instead of resigning himself to death, pays off. Then he can die "in peace".

The ONLY way that Thane surviving is NOT a cop out IS for there to be a cost saving him, as in not curing the Drell race, or leaving unfinished business that could be determental. But even then, Thane would willingly sacrifice himself for his people, making the choice rather unrealistic.

Bioware had it right for two ME2 characters in the first draft, lets NOT break it. And lets do something different, like let the romantic arc continue despite his death, which would be different and a change of pace, where Shep gathers strength from his memory.

[txgoldrush]

Asenza wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

dis thread has no point tbh.

anyone who thinks that thane should die because his "story is about him dying" should get an arrow to the knee by the whiterun guards tbh

lets cop out then...lets destroy a story and a characters theme all due to the power of "choice".

Thane is a huge example of how a "choice" could hurt his character more than help.

And I liked what I saw about his role in the leak. It was perfect.

You could only think it was perfect if you thought all there is to Thane's character is that he's dying. There is a lot more to his character than that.

Besides, ending a character's story by killing them is easy. Making it dramatic or tragic when a character has so much to live for might inspire pity or tears, but not much else. That's cheap, emotional manipulation. Reaching for the low hanging fruit. Having a character live beyond their expected time and forge a new path (Robin Hobb's Fools Fate was a beautiful example of this) would do Thane far more justice.

What if, after Thane's role in ME3 that he does fuffil all that he lived for....cure for drell found, Kolyut safe, his bonds with protecting the hanar kept, Shep strong to where he is optimistic she has the strength to get the job done....his death would not really be tragic, but liberating, even uplifting. A liberating death would do the most justice to Thane was would a redemption through sacrifice death would for Mordin. And I can say, this topic is inspired by the first draft leak.

What is stupid is a choice between having a benevolent character live or die....for example this was a stupid choice, and I liked most of DAII.



Lets see, really there is no choice here for 99% of players who had this scene, most people would pick the option for Bethany to survive and the 1% would probably do a "what if" run to see what exactly happens when they pick the stupid choice.

This is why the DAII team made Mama Hawke always die, because when given the options, almost every player would "save" her. They avoided a cop out.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 09 décembre 2011 - 08:27 .

[Asenza]

@txgoldrush,

Liberating and uplifting to who? Repeat after me, a romanced and loyal Thane does not want to die.

You don't think that, I dunno, Thane might want to hang around, provided the whole galactic war thing doesn't get in the way, and see what Kolyat does with his life? You think that just having met and begun a relationship with Shepard is better than seeing where it goes?

I don't think you understand the term copout. A copout in this circumstance would be curing Thane suddenly when no information was provided previously that would explain or set up how it was possible. But a cure and other options have been made available- Thane says during one of his non-romantic conversations that the Hanar are working on a cure- he just doesn't expect to live long enough to see it. And then there is the med report document from the shadow broker info and then that stuff from the CDN about lung medigel.....

"I've worked so hard. Meditated and prayed and done good deeds. Atoned for the evils I've done. Prepared. At the thought of death a chill settles in my gut. I am afraid, and it shames me." What is uplifting about a man who reunites with his son and falls in love and then dies before seeing what becomes of either?

It's sad, I guess. And if they do it in a certain way it will be dramatic. But not much else. If Bioware is content with reaching for the very low, overused, cheap, and emotionally manipulative fruit, well... they'll kill Thane. But if they want to do better...

I really wouldn't bring up Bethany/Carver/Leandra, here. Not if you were trying to support your case... because there were so many basic storytelling problems with them they are far too numerous to list here, then somehow relate to Thane.

Modifié par Asenza, 09 décembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[wildannie]

txgoldrush wrote...

This is why the DAII team made Mama Hawke always die, because when given the options, almost every player would "save" her. They avoided a cop out.

Is it really?  I didn’t realise that you had such inside knowledge of the development of DA2.  Regardless, it  not being possible to save Leandra  or influence Anders are hardlythe most praised aspects of DA2, they make replay pretty pointless and boring and have been criticized quite a lot on the forums.   

 

txgoldrush wrote…

He is not at peace with his death AS OF ME2!!!! This may NOT be the case at the end of ME3, when his will to live out his final days living, instead of resigning himself to death, pays off. Then he can die "in peace".

It’s going to be pretty hard to sell that one unless he’s a full time squadmate.  He’s going to have been apart from Shepard when she’s on earth and may only be re-joining her for one mission.  I don’t that scenario would bring him any particular ‘peace’ to his loss.

 

txgoldrush wrote…

The ONLY way that Thane surviving is NOT a cop out IS for there to be a cost saving him, as in not curing the Drell race, or leaving unfinished business that could be determental. But even then, Thane would willingly sacrifice himself for his people, making the choice rather unrealistic.

 

Yes, because it’s likely that curing someone would have such a massive impact on the galaxy /sarcasm

I’m quite sure Tali (or any of the previous squad) would happily sacrifice themselves for their people, that sentiment is not restricted to those who are sick.  If there are to be forced deaths one could argue that its a cop out if only the sick (Thane) and old (Mordin) are affected… that’s not how war works.

@Asenza Nicely put

Modifié par wildannie, 09 décembre 2011 - 02:55 .

[medicine]

I would suggest not to use Mama Hawke argument. It was pointless, the execution of it was really bad and made a main character look like an idiot - you really want the same for ME3? Bad decision with.. no decision whatsoever?
I'm all up for screwing things up once in the while, but when it actually shows us something, teaches us something, and this "something" makes sense.
 If it's executed nicely, people will go to forums, to tear each other faces apart and spit on them in the name of interpretation war. But some of them, to most of them might be quite civil, and end with "god I love this game" instead of "you whine too much" "you defend a crappy game" "PLOTHOLES incoming!!"(no, not looking at you, DA2 forums).

As for Thane's cure, it's up to Bioware, but teasing about it and letting him die, without even mentioning it through the whole game would be pretty cruel. If there is no way, and this "cures" are out of our reach - there is no time, experiment didn't work etc. then it's ok, if he dies.
Killing him off because he wants to (contradiction to what he says, and how he acts) or because "we planned it this way" is stupid. But popping with the magical cure out of nowhere, with no consequences and sacrifice required, would be pretty dumb either.

tl;dr I hope they at least tell us why we can't cure him, and make it reasonable. Or make us choose to sacrifice something of high importance.

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[Asenza]

medicine wrote...

tl;dr I hope they at least tell us why we can't cure him, and make it reasonable. Or make as choose to sacrifice something else, something of high importance.

The only issue with that scenario- and it is a big one- is balance and that it can easily become contrived. Think about it for a second. How could the situation of Thane's life vs a planet or a species (this goes for all other characters while I'm at it) come about? The only one I could really see in a position like this would be Shadow Broker Liara.

On a basic level it is a selfish, childish sort of situation, and if it comes to pass it would be akin to the writers going, "Show me how much you love this character!"

Ironically, that would wreck the problem at the core because the whole setup is to make one decide between the life/well-being of one vs many/planet. People can only care about huge numbers of people or a planet in the abstract sense, as opposed to the personal connection players have with Thane.

Modifié par Asenza, 09 décembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[medicine]

I said a sacrifice. It doesn't need to be a life, planet or your space hamster. Resources. Time. And make it count.
Imagine you'll need to go somewhere, but instead you decide to go looking for a cure. The consequences will hit you later, someone might die, you'll run of the time to do something that isn''t crucial but very helpful in war.

You really want it to be "Hey we rubbed in your face that he will die from the beginning, but we might hinted a cure few times, so here's it, and have fun".

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 03:55 .

[Cosmochyck]

Asenza wrote...

@txgoldrush,

Liberating and uplifting to who? Repeat after me, a romanced and loyal Thane does not want to die.

You don't think that, I dunno, Thane might want to hang around, provided the whole galactic war thing doesn't get in the way, and see what Kolyat does with his life? You think that just having met and begun a relationship with Shepard is better than seeing where it goes?

I don't think you understand the term copout. A copout in this circumstance would be curing Thane suddenly when no information was provided previously that would explain or set up how it was possible. But a cure and other options have been made available- Thane says during one of his non-romantic conversations that the Hanar are working on a cure- he just doesn't expect to live long enough to see it. And then there is the med report document from the shadow broker info and then that stuff from the CDN about lung medigel.....

"I've worked so hard. Meditated and prayed and done good deeds. Atoned for the evils I've done. Prepared. At the thought of death a chill settles in my gut. I am afraid, and it shames me." What is uplifting about a man who reunites with his son and falls in love and then dies before seeing what becomes of either?

It's sad, I guess. And if they do it in a certain way it will be dramatic. But not much else. If Bioware is content with reaching for the very low, overused, cheap, and emotionally manipulative fruit, well... they'll kill Thane. But if they want to do better...

I really wouldn't bring up Bethany/Carver/Leandra, here. Not if you were trying to support your case... because there were so many basic storytelling problems with them they are far too numerous to list here, then somehow relate to Thane.

I'll say!  There was no choice for any of them!  Ugh. 

If they just kill Thane off in a "hurry" it'll seem cheap and pointless.  Why introduce new characters and LIs in ME2 if you are only going to have them make a brief appearance to die?  I actually preferred most of the new squadmates to the old anyway.  And whether or not you romanced Thane, Shepard has given him cause enough to want to live. 
Considering how well ME2 was done, and that there were choices all along the way (unlike DA2), it would be VERY disappointing if there wasn't some sort of choice.  As for making it ridiculous like "if you cure Thane his entire species dies" , that's not even a choice. 

As wildannie pointed out, most of the squad would die for their "race" or to better everyone, so that isn't specific to someone dying.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

txgoldrush wrote...

Bioware should bring something new to the romance....if a character is killed, the romance arc continues but becomes more of a rememberance arc.

Instead of the final romance scene in Shepard's quarters, it should be Shep sitting in his or her quarters looking back and remembering the love interest.

Thane, for example, should ALWAYS die in ME3, LI or not, either killed in action or dies from the illness.

Heres how a Thane romance arc in ME3 could work with a female Shep.

Thane dies in his mission, fufilling his goals and dying at peace.

Romance arc continues as Shepard seeks to honor his memory.

In the romance culmanation sequence, Shepard should have a vision of Thane (like Hawke does of Leandra in DAII Legacy DLC if she is killed before playing the DLC) that comforts her and gives her peace.

An alternate would be...Thane survives his mission long enough for him to die in the final romance culmanation scene, maybe even in the ending.

Not every romance arc should take the same route, they should all have different outcomes and fates.

The idea that if a LI dies, then the romance arc continues in their memory is a really good idea. In the SM particularly, there is a lack of reaction on Shepard's behalf if his/her LI dies.

However, this good idea doesn't support your opinion that Thane should have a compulsory death. As Wildannie said, Thane is not at peace with his death, and there is nothing to suggest that that will change in ME3. It would be nice for an ending that involves a choice, but it wouldn't be a happy ending, or a 'peaceful' ending. I would do it for one playthrough, but I would want Thane alive for the rest of them.

So that you can understand our perspective a bit more, just imagine that, after the romance scene in ME2, Tali became fatally ill (as she does say it is possible in her romance dialogue.) And so, Bioware gave her a compulsory death for her, would you like that? Or would you prefer to have a choice to save her in some way?

[Asenza]

@medicine,

Well when you put it so simply... yes. That's called setup. From the beginning, two things were clear- that he was dying and that a cure was in the works, just Thane did not expect to live long enough to see it. Set up = no DEM or miracle cure. It was always there.

Some people, or rather, a lot of people, just didn't see it. And it isn't me or the other Thane fans reading between very narrow lines, you don't have to romance thane to hear about the hangars cure, I think you just need to talk to him once after recruiting him.

About consequences... i'm just having a lot of trouble seeing how curing/extending Thane's life so he lives long enough to get the cure- can affect other things... most squad issues happen in a vacuum, their issues are reactive to the things around them, not actively influencing the main plot themselves...

[medicine]

@Asenza
Well, it depends of the plot. If It's about getting rescources for war, and there's a time limit, then it affects. Can't say a lot about the way it will be build - so far it looks like the way ME2 was, cut the "suicide mission" and replace it with "war with reapers". I really hope not, I would expect actual war to be more dynamic, the "every decision counts" type of thing. 

And about this cure - I heard this line, but it was in experimental stage, If I'm right. That doesn't mean automatic win.
The next hint was in LotSB, wasn't it?  
Besides, we have a war. Everything is going to hell, we can't just go shopping to hanars.  If there was a good time for it, it was before the Arrival, or straight after. 
Getting this cure must be a big deal, because if it wasn't, we could have done it a thousand times already. Thus it can't emerge suddenly, and cost nothing, even if there were hints before.

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[medicine]

^Great points. 

*snorts at 'realism'*

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[KenKenpachi]

Mei Mei wrote...

medicine wrote...

Mei Mei wrote...

Great post.
*snorts at 'realism'*

We share the same sentiment regarding the ongoing discussion focusing on "realism." Thank you. 

*The Warlord of approval stares and nods in your direction* "Realism" from ME2's ill thought out sucide Mission Will lead to a crap ton of Import Bugs, just watch.

[Unschuld]

Look, Thane's a great character and all... but going into the relationship with the character you already know he's dying. That implies that you've accepted the fate of possibly losing your LI. It's the same as starting any relationship with someone dying of a terminal illness (like someone I know who dated a cancer patient). Sure there's some slim possibility that they might get better, but getting your hopes up on an unlikely possibility such as this will only lead to a harder crash when eventuality rears its ugly head. The point is not to dwell on the issue, and enjoy the time you have.

I don't see why Thane dying would be a cop out. Though I've never done that subplot myself (no Femshep), I do watch videos of the other possible outcomes which I didn't choose. The impression that I got from these is that Shepard has accepted Thane's fate, and even if Thane is at odds with himself over the issue, he knows it too. Instead, they resolve to enjoy the time they have left. Having him die mid-ME3 would still be a pivotal, emotional moment, and by no means "bad storytelling".

That's my opinion on the matter, anyways.

Modifié par Unschuld, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[Asenza]

@ Mei Mei,

The thing about that is Bioware hasn't exactly done so well with death aftermath. In Me1 or 2. Two lines of dialogue after Virmire, and I think two mentions in me2. During the suicide mission, a shrug. After the suicide mission, a row of coffins and absolutely no acknowledgement from Shepard or the crew that part of their number did not make it.

We can hope that that changes in me3 but they don't have a good record right now.

If Shepard and those that knew the dead character barely remember that they lived, why should we care that they died?

[Unschuld]

Asenza wrote...

@ Mei Mei,

The thing about that is Bioware hasn't exactly done so well with death aftermath. In Me1 or 2. Two lines of dialogue after Virmire, and I think two mentions in me2. During the suicide mission, a shrug. After the suicide mission, a row of coffins and absolutely no acknowledgement from Shepard or the crew that part of their number did not make it.

We can hope that that changes in me3 but they don't have a good record right now.

If Shepard and those that knew the dead character barely remember that they lived, why should we care that they died?

It doesn't need to be shown directly to have proved it did/didn't happen, it's implied. There's nothing wrong with leaving certain elements of the story up the the viewers' imaginations.