167 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Hmm....I must say I cannot understand how anyone can expect Thane's story to end with anything else than his death. It is dramatically appropriate. His story was indeed about bringing some more light to the universe before he dies - doesn't he say exactly that? A good end, that would be if he dies after the war is won, knowing he did his part to achieve that and knowing he also did his part to bring a cure for Kepral's to his people, even though it was too late for him to profit from it.

Any cure for Thane, whatever it was, wouldn't have the problem of being a miracle or DEM - you can always justify these things from the published material - but the problem of removing meaning from his story. And as for the question of choice - part of that meaning is that sometimes you do not have a choice. It's not a question of realism but of storytelling. I don't know if curing Thane can be done without cheapening his story. Perhaps it can, but it would have to feature an act of heroic determination on this part, something so impressively affirming his will to live that it outweighs the weight of his story so far.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Asenza]

@unschuld,

If the characters in the game don't react to one of their own dying, why should we?

And I already explained why killing Thane, in a universe where Shepard was brought back from the dead and a cure for Keprals is being worked on, is ludicrous.

Once you solve death, even in a scifi/fantasy universe, you raise the bar for what is possible in that universe. It doesn't matter how isolated or specific the death-defying incident was. Drawing the line at Keprals in a universe where death was overcome is.... I don't even know the words. But they are definitely synonymous with absurd and stupid and determination for drama, angst and cheap tears at the expense of good storytelling.

Modifié par Asenza, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[medicine]

@Asenza
Well, Cerberus had 4 bilion credits, spend 2 years... and it's ridiculous. I won't be defending it, I know that people involved in cure, might not have such funds.. but, no. Just no. How? It wasn't even explained well.
I like the idea of "Shepard in coma" instead.

But don't call something "cheap", just because you don't like it. Thane's dying, or Thane's surviving - both can make a great, memorable stories, each telling us something different.

And they don't draw the line just for Kerpral's - Joker's condition.

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[wildannie]

Unschuld wrote...

...snip

I don't see why Thane dying would be a cop out. Though I've never done that subplot myself (no Femshep), I do watch videos of the other possible outcomes which I didn't choose. The impression that I got from these is that Shepard has accepted Thane's fate, and even if Thane is at odds with himself over the issue, he knows it too. Instead, they resolve to enjoy the time they have left. Having him die mid-ME3 would still be a pivotal, emotional moment, and by no means "bad storytelling".

That's my opinion on the matter, anyways.

I don't know why you think Shepard has accepted his fate, maybe it's the conversation with Liara? She accepts Thane's account of his illness, but we never get to witness her explore the possibility of treatment with Thane within the romance dialog.  Shepard is uncertain about how much time they have left, but that doesn't mean that she's simply accepted his fate.  It's hard to imagine that she would not have encouraged him to seek new treatments or at least discussed it with him following the suicide mission but these are conversations we are unlikely to see.

Having Thane die is not going to be a pivotal moment in ME3 as he can already be dead.  If him dying is one outcome (with another being his survival) then I will find it emotional.  If it's the only outcome it's not going to be emotional for me, I'll just be incredibly pissed off.

[Asenza]

@Medicine,

I'm not calling it cheap because I don't like it.I'm calling it cheap because it is.

Like that kid from the demo. Adequately executed, ultimately cheap.

[wildannie]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm....I must say I cannot understand how anyone can expect Thane's story to end with anything else than his death. It is dramatically appropriate. His story was indeed about bringing some more light to the universe before he dies - doesn't he say exactly that? A good end, that would be if he dies after the war is won, knowing he did his part to achieve that and knowing he also did his part to bring a cure for Kepral's to his people, even though it was too late for him to profit from it.

Any cure for Thane, whatever it was, wouldn't have the problem of being a miracle or DEM - you can always justify these things from the published material - but the problem of removing meaning from his story. And as for the question of choice - part of that meaning is that sometimes you do not have a choice. It's not a question of realism but of storytelling. I don't know if curing Thane can be done without cheapening his story. Perhaps it can, but it would have to feature an act of heroic determination on this part, something so impressively affirming his will to live that it outweighs the weight of his story so far.

I think you're oversimplifying his story, initially his story is about bringing light to the universe before he dies.  He's in a bad place when Shepard picks him up, that changes during ME2.  In particular its clear that when romanced he wants more, he wants to keep living to be with Shepard which I would expect to be enough for him to try and seek out the previously refused transplant.

Modifié par wildannie, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[jeweledleah]

wildannie wrote...

Having Thane die is not going to be a pivotal moment in ME3 as he can already be dead.  If him dying is one outcome (with another being his survival) then I will find it emotional.  If it's the only outcome it's not going to be emotional for me, I'll just be incredibly pissed off.

this.

and I'm not even Thane's fan

[medicine]

I would say that bringing Shepard back from death was cheap. Pulling that move, and keeping Joker and Thane sick. That's contradicting each other. Boggles the mind. How far improved is ME universe medicine anyway? What is possible? It absolutly questions it. 

Modifié par medicine, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[FlyinElk212]

Asenza wrote...

@Medicine,

I'm not calling it cheap because I don't like it.I'm calling it cheap because it is.

Like that kid from the demo. Adequately executed, ultimately cheap.

.........until you realize that the kid from the demo isn't actually real, and is just Shepard's guilty conscious. ;)

Personally, I'm with the crowd that believes it's dramatically appropriate for Thane to die at the end of Mass Effect 3 romanced. Simply being afraid of death and ashamed to admit it is no reason for him to try and avoid it. In fact, I find a lot of beauty him overcoming his fear of his death.

"Well, there's no cure for you Thane, but due to your experiences with Shepard, and everything you've been through with her, you're no longer afraid to die. You know that because of her, you've cast a lot of light back into an otherwise dark universe. You've experienced so much because of your Siha. You can now rest peacefully; fulfilled."

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[wildannie]

FlyinElk212 wrote...



Personally, I'm with the crowd that believes it's dramatically appropriate for Thane to die at the end of Mass Effect 3 romanced. Simply being afraid of death and ashamed to admit it is no reason for him to try and avoid it. In fact, I find a lot of beauty him overcoming his fear of his death.

"Well, there's no cure for you Thane, but due to your experiences with Shepard, and everything you've been through with her, you're no longer afraid to die. You know that because of her, you've cast a lot of light back into an otherwise dark universe. You've experienced so much because of your Siha. You can now rest peacefully; fulfilled."

but he's previously refused life prolonging treatment, now that he really wants to live he's going to take it if he can get it.  Wouldn't you?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm....I must say I cannot understand how anyone can expect Thane's story to end with anything else than his death. It is dramatically appropriate. His story was indeed about bringing some more light to the universe before he dies - doesn't he say exactly that? A good end, that would be if he dies after the war is won, knowing he did his part to achieve that and knowing he also did his part to bring a cure for Kepral's to his people, even though it was too late for him to profit from it.

Any cure for Thane, whatever it was, wouldn't have the problem of being a miracle or DEM - you can always justify these things from the published material - but the problem of removing meaning from his story. And as for the question of choice - part of that meaning is that sometimes you do not have a choice. It's not a question of realism but of storytelling. I don't know if curing Thane can be done without cheapening his story. Perhaps it can, but it would have to feature an act of heroic determination on this part, something so impressively affirming his will to live that it outweighs the weight of his story so far.

It depends on perspective. I don't look at Thane and think of a terminally ill man, as I know a lot of people do. I look at him, and I think of a badass assassin, who has been through a lot, and still plods on despite it all. I see a man with a deep and complex personality, and someone who... intrigues me .

Therefore, I see his character arc as unfulfilled. He has many facets to his personality that are barely scraped upon, he has yet to smooth things over with Kolyat. And he still needs to find a way to 'bring more light into the universe' before he dies. He says that all he does is take the bad things out of the galaxy, but he is still morally unsure about himself.

Also, it isn't a case of: Die or Cure.

I would hope that Bioware will come up with something a little more inventive, I agree that a simple cure would cheapen his story. But there are many methods where you can prolong his life in order to be with him for longer. But in terms of story telling, if you see him as doomed from the start, then yes, the only ending is for him to die. I just had hope for him, and so would prefer there to be a choice in the matter.

[FlyinElk212]

wildannie wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...
Personally, I'm with the crowd that believes it's dramatically appropriate for Thane to die at the end of Mass Effect 3 romanced. Simply being afraid of death and ashamed to admit it is no reason for him to try and avoid it. In fact, I find a lot of beauty him overcoming his fear of his death.

"Well, there's no cure for you Thane, but due to your experiences with Shepard, and everything you've been through with her, you're no longer afraid to die. You know that because of her, you've cast a lot of light back into an otherwise dark universe. You've experienced so much because of your Siha. You can now rest peacefully; fulfilled."

but he's previously refused life prolonging treatment, now that he really wants to live he's going to take it if he can get it.  Wouldn't you?

Well yes, you could argue that Thane now has an excellent reason to live, and Shepard could try and convince Thane to "Be alive with her" forever and ever. I just think that a cure popping up for an illness that will cause Thane to die that he, throughout ME2, tried to come to terms with, will be a bit contrived. It also doesn't correlate with the main themes throughout his story in ME2. His themes of overcoming loss, and satisfying redemption before demise, would be thrown out in favor of a "You've given me a new reason to live" plotline that I can't see his character following.

If Shepard had said in response to Thane's admittal for fearing his death, "Then be alive with me.", and not "Be alive with me tonight", then I could see Thane going for it. Shepard would be implying that she wants Thane to forget about dying, and instead find a way so they can live together. Thing is, the line actually given in ME2 doesn't imply that at all--it instead is just a sexual innuendo, with Shepard more or less saying, "Thane, you're gonna kick the bucket, but before you do, you'll be alive with me. You'll have no reason to fear death because I'll make your last days the best days."

TL;DR- Thane's romance seems to be more about overcoming Thane's fear of his death than it is finding a way around his death itself.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:59 .

[Asenza]

@flyinelk212,

That's just the thing. A cure wouldn't just pop up. It has been properly, very clearly set up from the very first conversation Thane and Shepard have on the Normandy.

Having reunited with his son and begun a relationship with Shepard, if a cure or life extending procedure is available, why wouldn't a romanced, loyal Thane go for it?

His situation has changed, so now his outlook has changed. Are you arguing for Thane to stay exactly the same, a static character?

Modifié par Asenza, 09 décembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Cosmochyck]

As wildannie points out, we know from his dossier in LoTSB that he had refused treatment. This is before he meets Shepard (male OR female) and before he is reconciled with Kolyat.
Shepard never gets to ask him about NOW receiving a transplant or treatment of any kind as that dialogue never comes up. Even after the SM.
At the very least there should be some way to determine how he NOW feels about it, and perhaps as stated SO MANY times before, his life is prolonged long enough for the cure.

Modifié par Cosmochyck, 09 décembre 2011 - 07:27 .

[Unschuld]

Asenza wrote...


@unschuld,

If the characters in the game don't react to one of their own dying, why should we?

I'd imagine it's implied that Shepard (and the rest of the crew) grieves privately. I'd agree that I'd like to see some sort of emotional scene to show that the characters care, and we do get a small glipse of that at the end of the shadowbroker mission (when liara asks Shep's honest opinion on the reaper situation). The middle of the series isn't the place for the main character to have an emotional breakdown though. Hopefully we get something like that in ME3 (sources point to promising).

Asenza wrote...
And I already explained why killing Thane, in a universe where Shepard was brought back from the dead and a cure for Keprals is being worked on, is ludicrous.

Other's have explained this before I had a chance to get back to a computer. If you want to blame anything, blame the plot device for it's incredulousness, not 'because it's there death doesn't exist anymore'. Killing Shepard and bringing him/her back to life was incredibly far fetched, and maybe a bit stupid in terms of writing, because it opens the possibility for these types of arguements. Seriously, why couldn't have they just put Shep in a coma or something... or had him get captured and locked up in Conrad Verner's basement for 2 years because he's an insane obsessed fan. Would have been more believeable anyway...

The game explains the differences (indirectly) the reasons why Thane has an incurable terminal illness while Shepard was Jesused as follows (to the best of my understanding and speculation):

1. Shepard was brought back by an experimental project (which thankfully was successful on the first try!) using BILLIONS of credits worth of resources and technology. This is only because Shepard is deemed "too important to die", a luxury that the common nobody (Thane.... and for that matter Garrus, Liara, Tali, Kaidan, Ashley etc.) does not share.
 
2. Healthy Drell aren't numerous enough to create a steady pool of healthy lung transplants

3. Infected tissue is effectively destroyed, damage is permanent and irrecoverable.

4. The Hanar are heartless bastards who refuse to develop a cure or grow cloned healthy lung tissue.

(Seriously, why don't Drell living in humid environments just wear pseudo-quarian type respirators that dehumidify air going into their lungs. Talk about DERP)

Asenza wrote...
Once you solve death, even in a scifi/fantasy universe, you raise the bar for what is possible in that universe. It doesn't matter how isolated or specific the death-defying incident was. Drawing the line at Keprals in a universe where death was overcome is.... I don't even know the words. But they are definitely synonymous with absurd and stupid and determination for drama, angst and cheap tears at the expense of good storytelling.

Again, I feel it was silly to do, even with their explanations of WHY Shep was resurrected. The facility and research was blown up, so I guess it won't be happening again. Whatever. But don't let the idea that "death was solved" permeate into the rest of the universe. Think of it as a one time (stupid) plot device thing. Otherwise, no one dies from here on out, everyone is important enough to resurrect and the universe becomes stupid and pointless and death has no meaning. 

Modifié par Unschuld, 09 décembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[wasp777]

 Most of the returning characters have some kind of punch. Thane can also die if you do the wrong thing, though he can also survive. (Sorry for spoilers.)

[FlyinElk212]

Asenza wrote...

His situation has changed, so now his outlook has changed. Are you arguing for Thane to stay exactly the same, a static character?

Nope, I'm saying I'd like Thane's CHARACTER ARC to stay the same.

The main points of each romanceable character's arcs are shown within the final romance scene-- Jack realizes that she'll never be able to let go of the past unless she tries to open herself up again; Tali realizes she should just be herself, and learn that any restriction like her suit/suit mask can be overcome; Garrus realizes that good things will come to you if your intentions are good and you just keep trying; Thane realizes he can't cover up a flaw in himself- his fear of death- and for the first time ever, reaches out to someone else for help and support.

Thane overcoming his fear of his death is his current character arc. Wouldn't that story be sullied if there was an option to completely avoid the fear altogether? It'd be like me being afraid of heights, and instead of riding in an airplane to overcome it, I'm told I never have to ride an airplane again.

[Unschuld]

FlyinElk212 wrote...


Thane overcoming his fear of his death is his current character arc. Wouldn't that story be sullied if there was an option to completely avoid the fear altogether? It'd be like me being afraid of heights, and instead of riding in an airplane to overcome it, I'm told I never have to ride an airplane again.

Well said.

[Asenza]

Unschuld wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...


Thane overcoming his fear of his death is his current character arc. Wouldn't that story be sullied if there was an option to completely avoid the fear altogether? It'd be like me being afraid of heights, and instead of riding in an airplane to overcome it, I'm told I never have to ride an airplane again.

Well said.

Thane's arc isn't about overcoming his fear of death.

[Unschuld]

Asenza wrote...


Thane's arc isn't about overcoming his fear of death.

What is it?

Mei Mei wrote...

A fear of death is natural and healthy. If anything his story arc is about atonement and redemption.

I'd say that's certainly a major part of it, but fear of death is also revealed as the "hidden" part of that arc if he was a LI.

Modifié par Unschuld, 09 décembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[Unschuld]

Well, by "hidden" I meant that he doesn't have any breaking point where he actually confesses it (unless you're pursuing a romance plot). I don't see ourselves in disagreement over the issue, but rather expanding on the depth of it as a whole.

[Asenza]

@mei mei,

Thanks. I feel like I'm trying to break down a brick wall with my skull.

@unschuld

Thane's arc is about finding new reasons to live. His mortality plays into that- he wants to make things right with his son, wants to atone, but his fear of death can't just stand by itself.

It can go two or three ways, he can reunite with Kolyat and romance Shepard, he can reunite with Kolyat or he can NOT reunite with Kolyat and NOT romance Shepard.

In both the first and second situation, he has new reasons to live that he didn't have before joining Shepard's suicide squad.